Frontier Airlines becomes Wholly Owned subsidary of Republic

[Browntothebone]

I've got a really bad feeling about this.

All LCCs will have to match Frontier's new RAH imposed payscale.

 

[Vegaspilot99]

WOW, this comming from an A$$ hat who applied at Compass, Mesaba, Lynx, Great Lakes and COULDN'T get hired! Even Ameriflight won't take you back......

Call me when you land a job BACK in aviation.

Um I am back in aviation...why do you think I care about this issue?? And whats with the name callin' hmm??

 

[N2264J]

$106 million is a steal.

It's a soft market for airlines.

In 1999, Comair was crunching the numbers to purchase TWA or America West or Alaska or Midwest Express.

Delta bought Comair for $2.3B and stopped all that. Since then, I always thought Skywest would be the first to buy a larger airplane operator.

 

[General Lee]

It's a soft market for airlines.

In 1999, Comair was crunching the numbers to purchase TWA or America West or Alaska or Midwest Express.

Delta bought Comair for $2.3B and stopped all that. Since then, I always thought Skywest would be the first to buy a larger airplane operator.

It looks like that was the worst purchase of all time. That along with ASA. But, we had to control their out of control mess of operations, so that was their thinking. Still, it was an expensive, bad purchase.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Paul R. Smith]

So the rates paid by AMR, USair, CAL, UAL, Mdwest, (did I miss anyone?) must be pretty good. It looks like in a about a decade the fake Republic parasite will be competing with the very companies that gestated it.

 

[Lear70]

All LCCs will have to match Frontier's new RAH imposed payscale.

Ummm... NO. RAH can't impose a new payscale on the Frontier pilots without an 1113(c) filing, and they won't be able to do that if they don't own it until bankruptcy EXIT.

But thanks for playing.

 

[Noserider76]

How is it to be tested? I'm not saying I support this, but the contract language is what it is.
Bedford may be a lot of things, but one of them is not stupid when it comes to negotiating and enforcing contracts.

I'm saying that the contract can be traced back to RAH regardless of the individual airline or shell company operating the routes. This purchase will most likely trigger clauses which wouldn't require a company like United to continue to support it's direct competition through a feed contract. We'll see what the major airline lawyers have to say. The new FAA administrator may want a say as well.

 

[Cornelius]

I don't think there will be another bidder for F9 at all especially LUV. Mehncke has been lying to F9 employees all along talking about all kinds of interested investors dangling carrots in front of us. I wouldn't be surprised if he knew RAH was gonna provide the financing a long time ago but he didn't tell us just so he could get his concessions. It was kinda written on the wall when RAH provided 70 mil in Dip financing so I even saw it coming. Hopefully Mehncke and whoever else approved this deal at F9 gets fired when RAH taking over is official.

Why is this court process gonna be "fasttracked" as far as what the press releases say. I don't understand what the rush is.

As far as integration of seniority lists, I think most of the F9 pilots will quit before that would ever happen. I would be ashamed to be a part of the RAH seniority list and I am positive all F9 pilots feel the same way.

RAH union determining airbus pay, when the time comes, is a joke. FAPA can't even negotiate industry average pay and bennies for the airbus so what makes people think that RAH can?

Its like apples and oranges comparing F9 and RAH. With any luck F9 will be completely separate and won't even be associated with the word Republic. It happens in other industrys so why can't it happen in the airlines?

I'll quit ranting for now.

 

[UND_Sioux]

I'm saying that the contract can be traced back to RAH regardless of the individual airline or shell company operating the routes. This purchase will most likely trigger clauses which wouldn't require a company like United to continue to support it's direct competition through a feed contract. We'll see what the major airline lawyers have to say. The new FAA administrator may want a say as well.

Sorry, you are incorrect. If you look at the 2008 Annual Report, it clearly states what allows United to break their contract. If Chautauqua or Shuttle America started a competing venture, then United would have grounds to cancel. It says nothing about the holding company or any other subsidiaries being able to trigger a cancellation of the contract. It looks like United is stuck with the 170s until 2019. You can find all of this at www.sec.gov.

 

[CitationLover]

I don't think there will be another bidder for F9 at all especially LUV. Mehncke has been lying to F9 employees all along talking about all kinds of interested investors dangling carrots in front of us. I wouldn't be surprised if he knew RAH was gonna provide the financing a long time ago but he didn't tell us just so he could get his concessions. It was kinda written on the wall when RAH provided 70 mil in Dip financing so I even saw it coming. Hopefully Mehncke and whoever else approved this deal at F9 gets fired when RAH taking over is official.

Why is this court process gonna be "fasttracked" as far as what the press releases say. I don't understand what the rush is.

As far as integration of seniority lists, I think most of the F9 pilots will quit before that would ever happen. I would be ashamed to be a part of the RAH seniority list and I am positive all F9 pilots feel the same way.

RAH union determining airbus pay, when the time comes, is a joke. FAPA can't even negotiate industry average pay and bennies for the airbus so what makes people think that RAH can?

Its like apples and oranges comparing F9 and RAH. With any luck F9 will be completely separate and won't even be associated with the word Republic. It happens in other industrys so why can't it happen in the airlines?

I'll quit ranting for now.

Welcome to the happy family! All praise Jesus! <---- I heard Bedford demands employees say this.

I sincerely hope the MEH MEC and the Frontier MEC will UNIFY on this front and our new IBT brothers JOIN US in telling this c@#$ to IMPROVE the rates of the majority of our pilots and not cut our rates to match their crappy rates.

 

[Noserider76]

Sorry, you are incorrect. If you look at the 2008 Annual Report, it clearly states what allows United to break their contract. If Chautauqua or Shuttle America started a competing venture, then United would have grounds to cancel. It says nothing about the holding company or any other subsidiaries being able to trigger a cancellation of the contract. It looks like United is stuck with the 170s until 2019. You can find all of this at www.sec.gov.

Good luck there. I've see you haven't been exposed to the skill at which these guys find loopholes and get out of contracts.

 

[CitationLover]

Good luck there. I've see you haven't been exposed to the skill at which these guys find loopholes and get out of contracts.

400 Midwest pilots can attest to this. All praise Jesus! <--- See Bedford, your spirit is so engrossing.

 

[Noserider76]

400 Midwest pilots can attest to this.

That was a tragedy at Midwest. I wish you guys the best possible in this crappy (and getting crappier by the day) industry.

 

[CitationLover]

That was a tragedy at Midwest. I wish you guys the best possible in this crappy (and getting crappier by the day) industry.

It's ok, we'll be slinging gear in the 145 for some schuck out of SDF due to the majority of us being furloughed.

If there is a god in heaven, can TH get anal warts?

 

[pdub20s]

OK here is my prediction:

RAH buys F9.. RAH parterners drop their contracts. RAH then operates under a sigle(maybe 2) cert. Youll have Frontier and Frontier Express. RAH drops IBT and picks up ALPA.

The remaining regionals will pick up the slack, thus bringing folks on furlough at the regional level off of furlough.

Age 65 hits, mass exodus from the regionals...

and at age 65 I retire from American airlines

 

[MINIME]

First, let me answer your fears of this becoming another Midwest. This will not be another Midwest, and here is why. Midwest was/is losing aircraft, not because of Republic, but because of an inability to afford it's 717 fleet. RAH was contracted to replace the already-going-away aircraft. Frontier is not returning airplanes to the leasing agents, or at least that hasn't been said yet.

Now, in response to many of the above threads, this is how an RAH financed bankruptcy exit will work:

1. The RAH finance plan must get approved by the courts.

The 2. RAH plan must be the "highest bidder" for the Frontier financing. Anyone else, including Delta or United or Skywest, could offer more money or a better plan and win the judge's favor. RAH is not already the de facto owner of Frontier, they are just the first to make an offer

But, assuming RAH's offer is apporved...

3. The RAH CBA requires that Frontier pilots be merged into our single master seniority list.

4. The original poster of this thread stated that RAH wants to operate Frontier as a separate entity. This is allowable and understandable from a business point of view, but realize that it pertains only to the business side of things. Frontier will be Frontier, but that does not guarantee who will be flying which airplanes. As said above, the Frontier pilots will be merged into the RAH seniority list. Things like fences are negotiated between the unions. Bedford will not decide that. The pilots will.

5. RAH will not lose business with it's other mainline parnters. Delta contracts with Shuttle and Chautauqua. They do not contract with Republic, or the new Frontier side of ths business. No major partner has a contract with RAH's Frontier, and cannot dictate who or what Frontier does. If Frontier was rolled into the Shuttle America certificate, THEN United or Delta could throw a fuss and have a say, but as stated earlier, Frontier will be a separate certificate and entity. A new certificate is not grounds for breaking contract for any of our major airline partners. RAH flies for 7 airlines currently. That alone shows that flying for competing interests is allowed.

6. Pay. What a loaded topic. Here is how that will go. The Airbus fleet is all above the 99 seat max pay scale that is part of the RAH CBA. ANy larger aircraft will require that a new payscale be enacted in a specified time frame. With this announcement, you can be sure that the union will begin that process ASAP. This you all know from the endless Midwest 190 threads. Now, when it comes to what rate is appropriate... The RAH union will be able to negotiate a good rate based on that fact that the current Airbus pay at Frontier still allows profit. Frontier has been profitable for 6 quarters now. There is no argument that current Airbus rates are unaffordable. With Midwest, the mainline pilots rates were arguably (though I don't agree, but we are talking business perspective here) contributing to the losses of the airline. Acquiring Frontier will greatly inprove RAH pilots' ability to get good pay for both seats on larger equipment.

7. The Q 400's. Who knows what will become of Lynx. One constant in the crazy ride known as Bedford's business plan is that he does not want props. He turned down the opportunity to fly the Q400 for Continental. But, Lynx will be owned by RhAH, which means those pilots will have to be merged into the RAH seniority list. However, the plan for a sustainable business upon exiting bankruptcy MAY call for Lynx aircraft to be sold off. This is a big wait and see item. I like the plane, but the guy writing the big checks does not seem to. His call, not mine.

8. The Teamsters, which have been poor representitives for RAH pilots over the years, is actually operating well for now. The trusteeship that has taken over the Local and thrown out the lazy and weak legal counsel has so far done a good job. These new guys have more teeth, and are much more willing to dig in for a fight with management. You can actually expect different results for once! There is a reason to hope.

9. RAH has pilots on furlough. However, I do not think that anything close to a "stapling" of the Frontier pilot group to the RAH seniority list will occur. RAH furloughs will likely stay on furlough, with the exception of perhaps a few pilots. Avoiding furlough is a bargaining chip the Frontier pilots will have to play. That may cost them some fences, or seniority on the new integrated list. Who knows. I do think that Frontier pilots will carry in longevity for pay purposes, as was the result of the Shuttle America merger. But again, all of that is up to the pilots to negotiate.

First of all, thanks for a good well thought out response.

However, I still have some concerns as to how this may play out.

To the point about RAH having to be the highest bidder, I don't forsee that as problem. It's unfortunate but I don't.

The second point about Frontier being Frontier, but not knowing who will be flying the airplanes is where the fun starts. In my happy place the Frontier pilots should maintain their current positions within Frontier at their current rates. Even if you join the seniority lists, permanent fences or grandfathering of their positions should take place. But we know how this may end up being different. Some will argue that seniority is seniority, therefore, more senior RAH guys should be able to displace some of the better compensated FOs, or even Captains at Frontier. Now you will be displacing a person that did what needed to be done in order to land a Major Airline job. Not that the RAH guys don't deserve a shot, but not in this fashion I believe. Not possible? Not the intent? I beg to differ.

I know some might be saying that this is just business. It is, and to large extent I agree. Furthermore, I don't forsee RAH losing business to anyone over the buyout. If that was the case, they wouldn't be able to provide feed for 7 different competitors. I'm sure this point was looked at very carefully.

Which leads me to my final concern. The negotiation of profitable payscales for the Airbus. Again, in my perhaps naive opinion, there should be no new negotiations of pay unless they are negotiated UP. My concern is that large carrots will be thrown at RAH pilots in order to vote on subpar payscales for the Airbus. RAH pilots if joined in seniority with Frontier, will have a vote I'd imagine. Management may find or create loopholes to move pilots around in order to accomplish their goals. And as we all should know by now, management wants nothing less than to pay pilots 5 bucks an hour if they could. Thus, placing Frontier pilots in a precarious position. To have a job or to not have a job. Even if means taking a huge paycut. Making the race to the bottom alive and well.....

Again, I hope that my fears are misplaced and that I'm woefully wrong.

 

[CitationLover]

What order of integration will take place? After all the Frontier integration has to wait for Bankuptcy judges to sign off and thus will be AFTER the Midwest integration, which I am assuming the change in control will occur before July 1.

 

[BoilerUP]

What order of integration will take place? After all the Frontier integration has to wait for Bankuptcy judges to sign off and thus will be AFTER the Midwest integration, which I am assuming the change in control will occur before July 1.

From the CHQ 2003 contract...

1.H.3 In the event of a merger of airline operations between the Company and another air carrier the Company will require, as a condition of any such operational merger that provisions be included requiring that the surviving carrier shall provide for fair and equitable integration of the pre-merger pilots’ seniority lists in accordance with Articles 3 and 13 of the Allegheny Mohawk LPPs.

4. Integration of the pilot groups shall not occur until the pilot seniority lists are merged pursuant to procedures as described above.

5. The following additional requirements shall be applicable in the event of a merger, purchase or acquisition involving the Company, regardless of the identity of the surviving carrier or whether formerly separate operations are to be integrated.

a. Unless and until any operational merger is finally effectuated, the Union will continue to be recognized as the representative of the pre-merger Company pilots, so long as such recognition is consistent with the Railway Labor Act and any applicable rulings or orders of the National Mediation Board. Recognition of a post-merger representative shall be governed by the Railway Labor Act and by any applicable rulings or orders of the National Mediation Board.

b. Subject to applicable securities and other laws and regulations, the Company will review with the union the details of any material agreements relating to Successorship transactions in a timely manner, provided that no financial or other confidential business information need be disclosed unless suitable arrangements are made for protecting the confidentiality and use of such information.

c. The operations of the Company and those of the other air carrier shall be kept separate unless and until the processes described in paragraph b above is completed and the seniority lists of the two pilot groups are integrated in accordance with Sections 3 and 13 of the Allegheny-Mohawk Labor Protective Provisions are completed. During such time of separate operations, neither aircraft nor pilots shall be interchanged without the Union’s written consent.

d. Until the processes described in paragraph c above are completed, no flight deck crew member covered by this Agreement shall be reduced in status or pay category as an effect of the merger, purchase or acquisition.

e. During the period of separate operations pilots on the Chautauqua Pilots System Seniority List prior to the merger, purchase, or acquisition shall operate all aircraft on hand at the Company, all aircraft on firm order to the Company and all aircraft acquired by the Company other than as a result of the transaction after public announcement of the acquisition in accordance with this Agreement, provided however that nothing herein shall be construed to prevent fleet reductions which are attributable to economic or other reasons and conditions not related to the transaction, or the retirement of existing aircraft in the normal course of business.

f. The Company or surviving carrier, if different than the Company, shall meet promptly with the Union upon request to negotiate the implementation of the requirements of this Article.

 

[Nevets]

Ironically, I do not see this as the end for Frontier. Because Republic is about the only airline where the pilots have fought for good scope, Frontier is unlikely to be whipsawed against Republic. This is actually a lot better scenario for the pilots than if Frontier had bought Republic and ALPA's scope applied to the transaction.

Republic is not the only airline where pilots have fought for good scope. XJT and MESA are two examples off the top of my head.

Also, I don't know how ALPA has anything to do with your hypothetical of Frontier buying Republic as seeing that neither pilot group is represented by ALPA anyways.

 

[Corbon]

I don't think there will be another bidder for F9 at all especially LUV. Mehncke has been lying to F9 employees all along talking about all kinds of interested investors dangling carrots in front of us. I wouldn't be surprised if he knew RAH was gonna provide the financing a long time ago but he didn't tell us just so he could get his concessions. It was kinda written on the wall when RAH provided 70 mil in Dip financing so I even saw it coming. Hopefully Mehncke and whoever else approved this deal at F9 gets fired when RAH taking over is official.

Why is this court process gonna be "fasttracked" as far as what the press releases say. I don't understand what the rush is.

As far as integration of seniority lists, I think most of the F9 pilots will quit before that would ever happen. I would be ashamed to be a part of the RAH seniority list and I am positive all F9 pilots feel the same way.

RAH union determining airbus pay, when the time comes, is a joke. FAPA can't even negotiate industry average pay and bennies for the airbus so what makes people think that RAH can?

Its like apples and oranges comparing F9 and RAH. With any luck F9 will be completely separate and won't even be associated with the word Republic. It happens in other industrys so why can't it happen in the airlines?

I'll quit ranting for now.

Because we have a little section in our CBA that doesn't allow that. If it's owned by RAH, pilots from the RAH list fly it. Or is our contract suddenly unimportant because you feel you're so superior to us that we should just bend over and give up a very important clause that protects us?

Sorry you're so "ashamed" at the thought of being associated with us. You can fly your cute little animals around all you want and continue to look down your noses at us lowly RJ drivers, but you'll be somewhere on our seniority list when you do it. Or you can choose the unemployment line. It's your call.