Frontier Airlines becomes Wholly Owned subsidary of Republic

[lookin4better]

cyborg,

Its not about how many people they are flying, all they care about is telling friends they fly " big planes " ..... have you seen the kids flying for RAH? Nuff said.... its SJS gone pandemic.

 

[Noserider76]

Super,

How do you define a domestic air carrier? The FAA sees Republic as three (now five) domestic air carriers because of the certificates. You ought to see the paper chase they go through to take a 170 part out of Shuttle stock to put on a Republic aircraft, or vice versa. As long as the Airbus or 195s do not appear on the Shuttle or CHQ certificates, there is no scope violation.

I understand there is one pilot seniority list for all the separate "companies". Is that true?

 

[Raoul Duke]

Can we move this thread to the regional board?

 

[jacksjj]

I understand there is one pilot seniority list for all the separate "companies". Is that true?

True statement.

 

[007]

So they own a small Airbus operator? What's the problem?

Back in the 90's this discussion went: "So they'll fly small 50 seat jets, we have scope, what's the problem?"

 

[Vegaspilot99]

Is that even possible? How can you pay someone to fly 70+ passengers for less than Colgan in this country? Can DAL get rid of Shuttle America now and get some of that flying back with mainline aircraft?

It is possible...check the rates on APC. We make less right now.

 

[USMC319]

Can we move this thread to the regional board?

Why?

A holding company is in the process of buying a Major Airline. If you don't like the classification, take it up with the DOT. Anyway the thread is about Frontier so if you can add anything material to the discussion, please do so.

 

[cargojunkie]

40 milloion loan for 150 million in return... then 108 million to buy.. doesnt that make rp buying f9 for only 2 million of its own money

 

[MINIME]

Not fully knowing the scope clauses and laws that may apply, I don't see this as a good thing for pilots. I can easily see this game being turned into Midwest part #2.

I'm having a hard time seeing pilot compensation and job security as a whole, benefiting from this. Somebody smarter than me, please convince me otherwise.

As of now, I see this eventually becoming a good opportunity for management to bring pilot costs even lower. It appears as another carefully planned outsource screw job. I hope I'm dead wrong!

 

[Minimaniac]

Not fully knowing the scope clauses and laws that may apply, I don't see this as a good thing for pilots. I can easily see this game being turned into Midwest part #2.

I'm having a hard time seeing pilot compensation and job security as a whole, benefiting from this. Somebody smarter than me, please convince me otherwise.

As of now, I see this eventually becoming a good opportunity for management to bring pilot costs even lower. It appears as another carefully planned outsource screw job. I hope I'm dead wrong!

First, let me answer your fears of this becoming another Midwest. This will not be another Midwest, and here is why. Midwest was/is losing aircraft, not because of Republic, but because of an inability to afford it's 717 fleet. RAH was contracted to replace the already-going-away aircraft. Frontier is not returning airplanes to the leasing agents, or at least that hasn't been said yet.

Now, in response to many of the above threads, this is how an RAH financed bankruptcy exit will work:

1. The RAH finance plan must get approved by the courts.

2. The RAH plan must be the "highest bidder" for the Frontier financing. Anyone else, including Delta or United or Skywest, could offer more money or a better plan and win the judge's favor. RAH is not already the de facto owner of Frontier, they are just the first to make an offer

But, assuming RAH's offer is apporved...

3. The RAH CBA requires that Frontier pilots be merged into our single master seniority list.

4. The original poster of this thread stated that RAH wants to operate Frontier as a separate entity. This is allowable and understandable from a business point of view, but realize that it pertains only to the business side of things. Frontier will be Frontier, but that does not guarantee who will be flying which airplanes. As said above, the Frontier pilots will be merged into the RAH seniority list. Things like fences are negotiated between the unions. Bedford will not decide that. The pilots will.

5. RAH will not lose business with it's other mainline parnters. Delta contracts with Shuttle and Chautauqua. They do not contract with Republic, or the new Frontier side of ths business. No major partner has a contract with RAH's Frontier, and cannot dictate who or what Frontier does. If Frontier was rolled into the Shuttle America certificate, THEN United or Delta could throw a fuss and have a say, but as stated earlier, Frontier will be a separate certificate and entity. A new certificate is not grounds for breaking contract for any of our major airline partners. RAH flies for 7 airlines currently. That alone shows that flying for competing interests is allowed.

6. Pay. What a loaded topic. Here is how that will go. The Airbus fleet is all above the 99 seat max pay scale that is part of the RAH CBA. ANy larger aircraft will require that a new payscale be enacted in a specified time frame. With this announcement, you can be sure that the union will begin that process ASAP. This you all know from the endless Midwest 190 threads. Now, when it comes to what rate is appropriate... The RAH union will be able to negotiate a good rate based on that fact that the current Airbus pay at Frontier still allows profit. Frontier has been profitable for 6 quarters now. There is no argument that current Airbus rates are unaffordable. With Midwest, the mainline pilots rates were arguably (though I don't agree, but we are talking business perspective here) contributing to the losses of the airline. Acquiring Frontier will greatly inprove RAH pilots' ability to get good pay for both seats on larger equipment.

7. The Q 400's. Who knows what will become of Lynx. One constant in the crazy ride known as Bedford's business plan is that he does not want props. He turned down the opportunity to fly the Q400 for Continental. But, Lynx will be owned by RhAH, which means those pilots will have to be merged into the RAH seniority list. However, the plan for a sustainable business upon exiting bankruptcy MAY call for Lynx aircraft to be sold off. This is a big wait and see item. I like the plane, but the guy writing the big checks does not seem to. His call, not mine.

8. The Teamsters, which have been poor representitives for RAH pilots over the years, is actually operating well for now. The trusteeship that has taken over the Local and thrown out the lazy and weak legal counsel has so far done a good job. These new guys have more teeth, and are much more willing to dig in for a fight with management. You can actually expect different results for once! There is a reason to hope.

9. RAH has pilots on furlough. However, I do not think that anything close to a "stapling" of the Frontier pilot group to the RAH seniority list will occur. RAH furloughs will likely stay on furlough, with the exception of perhaps a few pilots. Avoiding furlough is a bargaining chip the Frontier pilots will have to play. That may cost them some fences, or seniority on the new integrated list. Who knows. I do think that Frontier pilots will carry in longevity for pay purposes, as was the result of the Shuttle America merger. But again, all of that is up to the pilots to negotiate.

 

[BlackPilot628]

First, let me answer your fears of this becoming another Midwest. This will not be another Midwest, and here is why. Midwest was/is losing aircraft, not because of Republic, but because of an inability to afford it's 717 fleet. RAH was contracted to replace the already-going-away aircraft. Frontier is not returning airplanes to the leasing agents, or at least that hasn't been said yet.

Now, in response to many of the above threads, this is how an RAH financed bankruptcy exit will work:

1. The RAH finance plan must get approved by the courts.

2. The RAH plan must be the "highest bidder" for the Frontier financing. Anyone else, including Delta or United or Skywest, could offer more money or a better plan and win the judge's favor. RAH is not already the de facto owner of Frontier, they are just the first to make an offer

But, assuming RAH's offer is apporved...

3. The RAH CBA requires that Frontier pilots be merged into our single master seniority list.

4. The original poster of this thread stated that RAH wants to operate Frontier as a separate entity. This is allowable and understandable from a business point of view, but realize that it pertains only to the business side of things. Frontier will be Frontier, but that does not guarantee who will be flying which airplanes. As said above, the Frontier pilots will be merged into the RAH seniority list. Things like fences are negotiated between the unions. Bedford will not decide that. The pilots will.

5. RAH will not lose business with it's other mainline parnters. Delta contracts with Shuttle and Chautauqua. They do not contract with Republic, or the new Frontier side of ths business. No major partner has a contract with RAH's Frontier, and cannot dictate who or what Frontier does. If Frontier was rolled into the Shuttle America certificate, THEN United or Delta could throw a fuss and have a say, but as stated earlier, Frontier will be a separate certificate and entity. A new certificate is not grounds for breaking contract for any of our major airline partners. RAH flies for 7 airlines currently. That alone shows that flying for competing interests is allowed.

6. Pay. What a loaded topic. Here is how that will go. The Airbus fleet is all above the 99 seat max pay scale that is part of the RAH CBA. ANy larger aircraft will require that a new payscale be enacted in a specified time frame. With this announcement, you can be sure that the union will begin that process ASAP. This you all know from the endless Midwest 190 threads. Now, when it comes to what rate is appropriate... The RAH union will be able to negotiate a good rate based on that fact that the current Airbus pay at Frontier still allows profit. Frontier has been profitable for 6 quarters now. There is no argument that current Airbus rates are unaffordable. With Midwest, the mainline pilots rates were arguably (though I don't agree, but we are talking business perspective here) contributing to the losses of the airline. Acquiring Frontier will greatly inprove RAH pilots' ability to get good pay for both seats on larger equipment.

7. The Q 400's. Who knows what will become of Lynx. One constant in the crazy ride known as Bedford's business plan is that he does not want props. He turned down the opportunity to fly the Q400 for Continental. But, Lynx will be owned by RhAH, which means those pilots will have to be merged into the RAH seniority list. However, the plan for a sustainable business upon exiting bankruptcy MAY call for Lynx aircraft to be sold off. This is a big wait and see item. I like the plane, but the guy writing the big checks does not seem to. His call, not mine.

8. The Teamsters, which have been poor representitives for RAH pilots over the years, is actually operating well for now. The trusteeship that has taken over the Local and thrown out the lazy and weak legal counsel has so far done a good job. These new guys have more teeth, and are much more willing to dig in for a fight with management. You can actually expect different results for once! There is a reason to hope.

9. RAH has pilots on furlough. However, I do not think that anything close to a "stapling" of the Frontier pilot group to the RAH seniority list will occur. RAH furloughs will likely stay on furlough, with the exception of perhaps a few pilots. Avoiding furlough is a bargaining chip the Frontier pilots will have to play. That may cost them some fences, or seniority on the new integrated list. Who knows. I do think that Frontier pilots will carry in longevity for pay purposes, as was the result of the Shuttle America merger. But again, all of that is up to the pilots to negotiate.

Great Post.

 

[Lear70]

I've got a really bad feeling about this.

Me, too...

 

[Lear70]

Great post.

One caveat:

9. RAH has pilots on furlough. However, I do not think that anything close to a "stapling" of the Frontier pilot group to the RAH seniority list will occur. RAH furloughs will likely stay on furlough, with the exception of perhaps a few pilots. Avoiding furlough is a bargaining chip the Frontier pilots will have to play. That may cost them some fences, or seniority on the new integrated list. Who knows. I do think that Frontier pilots will carry in longevity for pay purposes, as was the result of the Shuttle America merger. But again, all of that is up to the pilots to negotiate.

It cannot and will not result in a stapling; new seniority list integration legislation prevents it. The legislation requires that:

1. No stapling/windfall by default.
2. Both pilot groups will negotiate per Allegheny/Mohawk.
3. If no agreement can be reached, binding arbitration is automatic, whether either side wants it or not.

Granted, there can be unhappy pilots at Frontier if a judge decides that the Frontier pilots would possibly not have had jobs to begin with, being in bankruptcy, without the RAH purchase and lean towards the RAH pilots, but that's above my pay grade.

Enough to say that any SLI discussions will NOT include a "stapling of the lists" unless the bid by RAH is subsequently withdrawn, Frontier liquidates, and RAH (or another carrier) picks up the pieces in a Ch. 7 liquidation proceeding but decides to keep the operation running for some reason.

 

[CRJ puppy]

Wonder if this might violate one of the mainline carriers' scope clauses. I seem to remember that was one of the ways UAL worked to kill Indy Air. Indy could not operate the 320's because they violated UAL scope, but UAL would not release ACA (parent of Indy Air) from their obligations for express service, unless ACA paid very high penalties to get out. This effectively bled ACA dry. Does this look like a possibility? 'Cause RP needs to be stopped.uke:

Peace.

Rekks

This is incorrect. Delta dropped the contract for the DoJets when ACA dba Independance Air due to scope restrictions. The UAL flying was already over...that is the primary reason ACA went to independent stand alone.

 

[likeitis]

First, let me answer your fears of this becoming another Midwest. This will not be another Midwest, and here is why. Midwest was/is losing aircraft, not because of Republic, but because of an inability to afford it's 717 fleet. RAH was contracted to replace the already-going-away aircraft. Frontier is not returning airplanes to the leasing agents, or at least that hasn't been said yet.

not really. Lease rates on the 717 were $180,000/month versus the 170's $200,000/month. 717's didn't go away because Midwest couldn't afford them. Seabury told Midwest management to play hardball with Boeing to lower the already low lease rates. Well Boeing grabbed the bats, balls, gloves and bases and gave Midwest the finger on the way out. So this isn't about what planes Midwest can afford. It's about finding that best group of career depression enablers and guess who was first to the door.