From PPrune... Iberia flight "chancing it?"

[B747FR8DAWG]

Bended Metal

atlas's bended metal at campinas ( a 200) . Can't remeber wheter they landed short or long now, but they destroy the plane and the approach lights. no major injuries to the crew.2000 or 2001? i rmember going there and seeing the reconstruction work.

Is not the only time they have bended metal either.

just a fact that anyone can have problems going to SA.

Well, this is news to me, considering that I have been here since 1999, based in MIA and have been flying to VCP all these years. I cannot recall destroying a plane down there, but thanks for the update.

 

[aa73]

I don't know the conditions in BOS that day, but quite often when it it's quite cold, the falling snow does not ADHERE to the a/c at all and quickly blows off at low speed. Perhaps that airline's crew was trained to recognize this instead of the knee jerk de-ice that we in the US do at the very slightest cold wx precip.

Mach 80.. the FARs are very clear on conditions requring deicing or not. If there is any form of frozen precip on the aircraft... you deice. No pilot can make an absolute determination on whether stuff will "blow off the aircraft." That has been written in blood.

73

 

[CA1900]

Mach 80.. the FARs are very clear on conditions requring deicing or not. If there is any form of frozen precip on the aircraft... you deice.

Yes, the FARs are very clear, and that's not what they say. Re-read 91.527 again:

(a) No pilot may take off an airplane that has--
(1) Frost, snow, or ice adhering to any propeller, windshield, or powerplant installation or to an airspeed, altimeter, rate of climb, or flight attitude instrument system;
(2) Snow or ice adhering to the wings or stabilizing or control surfaces; or
(3) Any frost adhering to the wings or stabilizing or control surfaces, unless that frost has been polished to make it smooth.

A little powdered snow on a dry, frozen wing is not adhering to the surface, and does not automatically require deicing.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

In my past life as a turboprop driver, on my post/preflight, I could tell it the stuff was sticking, or if it was simply dry powder that you could blow off. (If I can blow it off, 100+ knots can, too.)

I don't know how you could do that on a heavy.

Don't forget:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Ontario_Flight_1363

 

[airbus_jas]

Cold Soaked is the Key

I was in BOS last night too, and the snow there was very light and wispy.

I work for a legacy carrier that used to have the most ridiculous, overkill, 100 step deicing procedure. This was a knee jerk response by the company and feds to a fatal takeoff accident we had involving clear ice. The year after the accident, 17 crews were violated one day in PIT because they took off with NO precipitation falling, NO precipitaton the aircraft, but the ATIS reporting "light snow".

That's how out of control it got.

Fast forward 15 years, and we are able to use our judgement again. Our winterization guide allows us to take off with light snow on a cold soaked aircraft (IE like an A-340 that just finished a 10 hour flight).

One difference is, we can't take off in this situation with any precip FALLING as this Iberia apparently did.

I doubt our friends from Spain put as much thought into this as we have however.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

wich bears the question, why do they send the ugly ones to New York? i mean c'mon ,have you guys ever walked around kew gardens or forest hills? jesus what an attrocity!!!!

LOL. Never thought I'd see Forest Hills mentioned on this board. Thats my hometown!

Yeah, I'm not Jewish, but grew up in a predominantly Jewish neighborhood. Most of my friends were Jewish - in fact I'm kinda an honorary Jew in a sense as my personality is somewhat inline with the streotype.

But yeah, some of the Israeli girls were a little fuggly. As a teenager we used to call this one chick "donkey face." Teens are so mean and terrible. I actually thought she looked okay. The more acclimated non-orthodox girls were many times hot. Some were refered to as "JAPs" which stood for Jewish American Princess. You know the type - lots of Benetton and the like.

 

[another cfii]

I wonder if there's a spanish version of FI, and they're discussing the same thing we're doing at the exact moment

Instead of hot chicks in Seattle, they'll subsitute with BCN, instead of NYC, they'll substitute MAD.

 

[Flying-Corporal]

I immediately replied with a 'yes you do!!' as the whole of the A340 was covered in snow,with visible deposits on all surfaces including the tops of the wings.

I never thought CRM also applied to pilots sitting in cockpits of other airplanes. Are you a A340 pilot? Do you know what is the deicing procedure in Iberia? What makes you qualified to boss another professional, may be even more experieced than you, crew?

I called ATC and just stated that the A340 was covered in snow,as we had a birds eye view,hoping they would intervene in the interests of safety.
But that was the last we heard,and they took off.
Quite possibly the most unprofessional bit of aviation I've ever seen. "

Hmm... I think your call to ATC was very unprofessional. Let the FEDs worry about that stuff.

Reminds me of one time when our airplane was hangered overnight and we didn't need to deice that morning. Well, guees what? When we requested taxi to the runway some smart a$$ probably sitting in an ice covered airplane made a comment similar to yours on the frequency. I just ignored it.

Sometimes you just wonder about professionalism, courtesy and respect in this industry.

 

[Cardinal]

I never thought CRM also applied to pilots sitting in cockpits of other airplanes. Are you a A340 pilot? Do you know what is the deicing procedure in Iberia? What makes you qualified to boss another professional, may be even more experieced than you, crew?

Hmm... I think your call to ATC was very unprofessional. Let the FEDs worry about that stuff.

So you're saying you wouldn't urinate on someone even if they were on fire.

First, aa73 wasn't the pilot involved, it's a direct quote from a post on pprune.

Secondly, OF COURSE CRM applies beyond the cockpit in question, that's the whole point! The use of "Resources" such as cabin crew, atc, dispatch, and when need be, other flight crews ("Hey, are we on fire?" or "Hey, your gear pins are still in")

Thirdly, "courtesy"? You would rather see an A340-600 possibly fireball off the end of the runway than perhaps step on someone's toes? While neither outcome is assured, one is much worse than the other.

 

[aa73]

Thanks Cardinal. No I wasn't involved, but I would have DEFINITELY said something as well - both in English and spanish.

CA1900, you are correct regarding quoting the exact wording of the FARs. You know what I meant, I just wasn't as concise as you were. Bottom line, as you pointed out - "adhering" can be misinterpreted, especially as precip continues to fall.

73

 

[Flying-Corporal]

First, aa73 wasn't the pilot involved, it's a direct quote from a post on pprune.

My apologies to aa73.

Secondly, OF COURSE CRM applies beyond the cockpit in question, that's the whole point! The use of "Resources" such as cabin crew, atc, dispatch, and when need be, other flight crews ("Hey, are we on fire?" or "Hey, your gear pins are still in")

CRM stands for "COCKPIT Resource Management". I believe it implies the cockpit of the a/c that you're actually in and control. You, as a PIC or required crew member, manage the RESOURCES that are available to you. The RESOURCES DO NOT manage you.

What you're refering to is common camaraderie. "Hey we broke out at the mins", "There is a bag on the taxiway", "Your fuel panel is open".

There is a difference between saying "You're on fire!" and "You have to take rwy 22 for departure because it's better for your performance. "Ground, that American MD-88 in front of us shouldn't depart because we're showing Level X on our radar". See the difference?

Thirdly, "courtesy"? You would rather see an A340-600 possibly fireball off the end of the runway than perhaps step on someone's toes? While neither outcome is assured, one is much worse than the other.

The answer is no. I don't want to see it. However, I do think that there could be only ONE captain, that is actually sitting in the cockpit of the a/c that he or she is assigned to. Since the pilot didn't actually suggest it, but demanded ATC to take action, that to me is interference with flight crew (or captain's) authority. Is that what you're advocating?

One pax in my previous airline (not on my flight) began screaming on a short final that the pilots were landing at the wrong airport. He apparently, was a PP and flew in that area and was convinced the a/c was mistakenly landing at the wrong airfield. Well, it turned out to be false, however everyone was pretty shook up after an uneventful landing. I am sure he didn't want to "fireball off the end of the runway than perhaps step on someone's toes". Had the cockpit door been open God knows what he would've done in the "interest of safety".

Bottom line - there can be only one cook in the kitchen.

 

[Poahi]

Hmm... I think your call to ATC was very unprofessional. Let the FEDs worry about that stuff.

Unfortunately, it's the NTSB that 'worries' about that kind of unprofessionalism.

 

[Falconjet]

Actually, many companies and some branches of the military refer to it as CREW Resource Management.

You can bet that I would appreciate a heads up call from an adjacent aircraft if I was about to taxi out with a bunch of snow on my aircraft.

CRM is about using all resources available, not just those in your cockpit.

FJ

 

[chperplt]

CRM stands for "COCKPIT Resource Management". I believe it implies the cockpit of the a/c that you're actually in and control. You, as a PIC or required crew member, manage the RESOURCES that are available to you. The RESOURCES DO NOT manage you.

CRM stands for Crew Resource Management.... Crew reaches far outside your cockpit.

I think you need to leave the 80s and join modern day thinking.

 

[Capt. Caucasian]

The RESOURCES DO NOT manage you.

100% BS

That's the kind of attitude that gets people killed, or fired.

 

[Thedude]

One pax in my previous airline (not on my flight) began screaming on a short final that the pilots were landing at the wrong airport. He apparently, was a PP and flew in that area and was convinced the a/c was mistakenly landing at the wrong airfield. Well, it turned out to be false, however everyone was pretty shook up after an uneventful landing.

You made me think of an incident where a DHing F/A (from another company) told the crew they were landing at the wrong airport and they did land at the wrong airport. Then to make it worse, they took off and flew the additional 5 miles without a new relaese under 121. Both were fired. I personally know they F/A and met the F/O at another job.

Random thought mode off----

 

[n757st]

My apologies to aa73.




CRM stands for "COCKPIT Resource Management". I believe it implies the cockpit of the a/c that you're actually in and control. You, as a PIC or required crew member, manage the RESOURCES that are available to you. The RESOURCES DO NOT manage you.

Wow, yeah, as everyone else said, its CREW resource management, and tell you what, if someone at my airline taxied out with snow adhering to the wings I would want someone to speak out too. The 340 is a big airplane, somehow I doubt the crew got onto the wing and rubbed it to see if the snow was adhering. Secondly, if your aircraft is covered with snow, whos to say that there isn't ice below that snow that is also adhering to the aircraft. History teaches us a lot of things, one of the things it has taught is you don't take off with ice or snow adhering to your aircraft. There is a lot of precedence with how ice and snow effects aircraft. Air Florida taxied out after getting most of the aircraft deiced and ended up having their t2 sensors and pitot tubes iced up. Granted, things were different and they did deice, but what was the same was poor decision making, which IF all this is true, this crew obviously exhibited.

 

[Mach 80]

There are days when a sort of dry whispy snow falls and doesn't stick to the airplanes....you can see it easily fall away from the nose of the airplane and other parts....and it is NOT adhering to the A/C. I take off all the time in those conditions without wasting time and money of de-icing. I taxi by other airplanes wasting time and money getting de-iced because they have a knee jerk unthinking reaction to ANY precipitation in cold weather that they must get de-iced. This Iberia Captain was probably a THINKING Captain and made the same decision I do in those conditions. If the precip is adhering I DO get de-iced...if not...I don't waste the time and money. For some it's easier to not think and make a logical decision based on actual conditions (if precip is adhering or not), and these people like to just fall back on an easy-out blanket mind-set, so have at it if that's the way you want to operate.

 

[J Dawg]

There are days when a sort of dry whispy snow falls and doesn't stick to the airplanes....you can see it easily fall away from the nose of the airplane and other parts....and it is NOT adhering to the A/C. I take off all the time in those conditions without wasting time and money of de-icing.

So the frozen nose of an aircraft is the same temperature as the wing which just had thousands of pounds of (relative) warm fuel pumped into them?

 

[n757st]

So the frozen nose of an aircraft is the same temperature as the wing which just had thousands of pounds of (relative) warm fuel pumped into them?

Exactly... doesn't take much for that "thin wispy snow" to melt and refreeze into "hard adhering ice", especially with thousands of pounds of warm jet fuel on board.

Also, if the snow is that thin and wispy, well then it wont cost much money or much time to just get it deiced.