From PPrune... Iberia flight "chancing it?"

[Flying-Corporal]

First, aa73 wasn't the pilot involved, it's a direct quote from a post on pprune.

My apologies to aa73.

Secondly, OF COURSE CRM applies beyond the cockpit in question, that's the whole point! The use of "Resources" such as cabin crew, atc, dispatch, and when need be, other flight crews ("Hey, are we on fire?" or "Hey, your gear pins are still in")

CRM stands for "COCKPIT Resource Management". I believe it implies the cockpit of the a/c that you're actually in and control. You, as a PIC or required crew member, manage the RESOURCES that are available to you. The RESOURCES DO NOT manage you.

What you're refering to is common camaraderie. "Hey we broke out at the mins", "There is a bag on the taxiway", "Your fuel panel is open".

There is a difference between saying "You're on fire!" and "You have to take rwy 22 for departure because it's better for your performance. "Ground, that American MD-88 in front of us shouldn't depart because we're showing Level X on our radar". See the difference?

Thirdly, "courtesy"? You would rather see an A340-600 possibly fireball off the end of the runway than perhaps step on someone's toes? While neither outcome is assured, one is much worse than the other.

The answer is no. I don't want to see it. However, I do think that there could be only ONE captain, that is actually sitting in the cockpit of the a/c that he or she is assigned to. Since the pilot didn't actually suggest it, but demanded ATC to take action, that to me is interference with flight crew (or captain's) authority. Is that what you're advocating?

One pax in my previous airline (not on my flight) began screaming on a short final that the pilots were landing at the wrong airport. He apparently, was a PP and flew in that area and was convinced the a/c was mistakenly landing at the wrong airfield. Well, it turned out to be false, however everyone was pretty shook up after an uneventful landing. I am sure he didn't want to "fireball off the end of the runway than perhaps step on someone's toes". Had the cockpit door been open God knows what he would've done in the "interest of safety".

Bottom line - there can be only one cook in the kitchen.

 

[Poahi]

Hmm... I think your call to ATC was very unprofessional. Let the FEDs worry about that stuff.

Unfortunately, it's the NTSB that 'worries' about that kind of unprofessionalism.

 

[Falconjet]

Actually, many companies and some branches of the military refer to it as CREW Resource Management.

You can bet that I would appreciate a heads up call from an adjacent aircraft if I was about to taxi out with a bunch of snow on my aircraft.

CRM is about using all resources available, not just those in your cockpit.

FJ

 

[chperplt]

CRM stands for "COCKPIT Resource Management". I believe it implies the cockpit of the a/c that you're actually in and control. You, as a PIC or required crew member, manage the RESOURCES that are available to you. The RESOURCES DO NOT manage you.

CRM stands for Crew Resource Management.... Crew reaches far outside your cockpit.

I think you need to leave the 80s and join modern day thinking.

 

[Capt. Caucasian]

The RESOURCES DO NOT manage you.

100% BS

That's the kind of attitude that gets people killed, or fired.

 

[Thedude]

One pax in my previous airline (not on my flight) began screaming on a short final that the pilots were landing at the wrong airport. He apparently, was a PP and flew in that area and was convinced the a/c was mistakenly landing at the wrong airfield. Well, it turned out to be false, however everyone was pretty shook up after an uneventful landing.

You made me think of an incident where a DHing F/A (from another company) told the crew they were landing at the wrong airport and they did land at the wrong airport. Then to make it worse, they took off and flew the additional 5 miles without a new relaese under 121. Both were fired. I personally know they F/A and met the F/O at another job.

Random thought mode off----

 

[n757st]

My apologies to aa73.




CRM stands for "COCKPIT Resource Management". I believe it implies the cockpit of the a/c that you're actually in and control. You, as a PIC or required crew member, manage the RESOURCES that are available to you. The RESOURCES DO NOT manage you.

Wow, yeah, as everyone else said, its CREW resource management, and tell you what, if someone at my airline taxied out with snow adhering to the wings I would want someone to speak out too. The 340 is a big airplane, somehow I doubt the crew got onto the wing and rubbed it to see if the snow was adhering. Secondly, if your aircraft is covered with snow, whos to say that there isn't ice below that snow that is also adhering to the aircraft. History teaches us a lot of things, one of the things it has taught is you don't take off with ice or snow adhering to your aircraft. There is a lot of precedence with how ice and snow effects aircraft. Air Florida taxied out after getting most of the aircraft deiced and ended up having their t2 sensors and pitot tubes iced up. Granted, things were different and they did deice, but what was the same was poor decision making, which IF all this is true, this crew obviously exhibited.

 

[Mach 80]

There are days when a sort of dry whispy snow falls and doesn't stick to the airplanes....you can see it easily fall away from the nose of the airplane and other parts....and it is NOT adhering to the A/C. I take off all the time in those conditions without wasting time and money of de-icing. I taxi by other airplanes wasting time and money getting de-iced because they have a knee jerk unthinking reaction to ANY precipitation in cold weather that they must get de-iced. This Iberia Captain was probably a THINKING Captain and made the same decision I do in those conditions. If the precip is adhering I DO get de-iced...if not...I don't waste the time and money. For some it's easier to not think and make a logical decision based on actual conditions (if precip is adhering or not), and these people like to just fall back on an easy-out blanket mind-set, so have at it if that's the way you want to operate.

 

[J Dawg]

There are days when a sort of dry whispy snow falls and doesn't stick to the airplanes....you can see it easily fall away from the nose of the airplane and other parts....and it is NOT adhering to the A/C. I take off all the time in those conditions without wasting time and money of de-icing.

So the frozen nose of an aircraft is the same temperature as the wing which just had thousands of pounds of (relative) warm fuel pumped into them?

 

[n757st]

So the frozen nose of an aircraft is the same temperature as the wing which just had thousands of pounds of (relative) warm fuel pumped into them?

Exactly... doesn't take much for that "thin wispy snow" to melt and refreeze into "hard adhering ice", especially with thousands of pounds of warm jet fuel on board.

Also, if the snow is that thin and wispy, well then it wont cost much money or much time to just get it deiced.