Friendly NJI/NJA discussion

[Hawkered]

GV Flyer,

That may well have been an insurance provision for the operation of Gulfstreams, certainly not a regulatory requirement. If you were so instrumental in this set-up, what would have prevented you from hiring street captains at NJA to accomplish the same task?

I can assure you that this was organized well above the pilot payscale and behind closed doors.

You're right about the comparisons of experience in 1998, but when you consider that the seniority numbers have more than doubled since then with crews that have been described at length in these posts, your arguments tend to fall apart.

We all deserve respect, and the apparent offer of help from one your crews to the egos of people like Seaspray in getting hired will do nothing for the perception of your crews, in fact your latest post seems to reek of the same lack of humility.

 

[XTW]

" A flight attendant is after a husband...anybody's husband."

An old crusty Captain once told me:

"Son, anyone who dates a flight attendant is too lazy to to j*rk off".

I'm just sayin' what I heard.


X

 

[BrnJetFuel]

You said "Additionally, you probably have been flying jets far longer than those who will be sliding right seat to you" regarding the NJI pilots. That's simply not the case. Executive Jet was operating Citation II's when the Gulfstream deal was inked. I listed the chronology to show this. The initial cadre at EJI was required by Gulfstream to be international Gulfstream captains with 2500 hours in type.

I played a peripheral part in setting up the EJI program on the Gulfstream side. I flew as an NJI captain when Gulfstream got two one-eight shares for supplemental lift and I participated in the Executive Jet / Gulfstream joint marketing effort until it ended in 1999.

NJI is a fine organization staffed with professional pilots who deserve to be treated with more respect than the gloating "You're going to be stapled" attitude so many of you have demonstrated.

GV

Whoa, I think I know you. Don't you also hold like 12 different World Records in Aviation too?

NJI will not be stapled to the bottom. Our Union will decide how it's done but we will no less do it equitably. None of us want to spend a week with someone who is pissed and feels they got the short end of the stick. I can imagine that there will be some sort of fence where NJI continues in their respective plane but if they want to bid our planes then they must compete from the bottom. They went to NJI to fly G-strings and as long as they remain in the equipment, then there will be protections.

I'm sure there are plenty of fine people over there. But we have hundreds of pilots at NJA now flying smaller equipment that have more international experience in their small toes than a combined handful at NJI. Imagine what it has been like to have many pilots leave EJA (NJA) for EJI (NJI) and look back while thumbing their noses saying we would never amount to anything and they wanted to go to the bigger airplanes. Then almost every encounter with an NJI sky god, it was like a small child sticking it's tongue back at you on the other side of bullet proof glass. Sure they all got to fly from home and were hired as an F/O making more than some of our most senior captains, instead of demonstrating some form of humility for us red headed step children, most of them obviously got off on letting us know Santulli hated us and our Union. Well the day of reckoning is upon us and I personally plan on taking the high road. But for the next few months and maybe even years, we all know that there is a three year clock on the wall at NJI and many of us are having a hard time hiding the euphoric emotions while watching karma unfold.

 

[Hawkered]

BrnJetfuel,

The union and company have already agreed to the terms of assimilation of NJI into NJA. It is not for any of us to talk about modifications of the Letter Of Agreement, a legal document, nor make false promises about its execution.

Whether or not people at NJI "like" NJA or its pilots is completely irrelevant. They can always quit and go to Hong Kong if they don't like unions.

 

[FLYLOW22]

BrnJetfuel,

The union and company have already agreed to the terms of assimilation of NJI into NJA. It is not for any of us to talk about modifications of the Letter Of Agreement, a legal document, nor make false promises about its execution.

Whether or not people at NJI "like" NJA or its pilots is completely irrelevant. They can always quit and go to Hong Kong if they don't like unions.

The first bid is on the way.

 

[GVFlyer]

GV Flyer,

That may well have been an insurance provision for the operation of Gulfstreams, certainly not a regulatory requirement.

The 2500 hours in Gulfstreams and international captain qualification requirements for employment at EJI were established principally for Gulfstream Aerospace brand management and for marketing considerations as buyers would be guaranteed highly qualified international Gulfstream captains to pilot their jet.

If you were so instrumental in this set-up, what would have prevented you from hiring street captains at NJA to accomplish the same task?

If you check my post that you are referencing you will see that I stated that I played a peripheral part in setting up the EJI program - that means ancillary, not instrumental. I can, however, answer your question.

Gulfstream Aerospace is a profoundly anti-union company that moved from Beth Page, New York to Savannah, GA because of the lack of quality in the union workforce on Long Island and the perceived work ethic of the Georgia workers. Please note that unions have been soundly rejected by the workers at other quality manufacturers in the US such as Toyota, Honda, Mercedes and BMW.

Gulfstream set the pilot requirement for EJI and was able to do so because Richard Santulli was unable to afford the three core aircraft required to make EJI a reality. Gulfstream made EJI possible by providing these three core aircraft.

The actual hiring of EJI pilots was performed by EJI employees: Richard Schwartz, Peter Hanchak and Ray Roberts.

I can assure you that this was organized well above the pilot payscale and behind closed doors.

You're right. Richard Santulli, Jim Jacobs and David Orlinsky were signatories of the original Gulfstream- Executive Jet contract. Bill Boisture, Reanor Reavis, and Don Mayer (of the Mayer family in Oscar-Mayer) represented Gulfstream. I suggest you contact one of the NetJets representatives to confirm the facts of my posting. Now that David has retired he probably has time to take your call.

You're right about the comparisons of experience in 1998, but when you consider that the seniority numbers have more than doubled since then with crews that have been described at length in these posts, your arguments tend to fall apart.

Actually, I was talking about the EJA experience levels in 1995 when EJI was formed. The exception to scope in the 1998 CBA was actually the second time Local 284 affirmed the right for EJI to exist as a separate non-union entity.

I wasn't making an argument about anything, simply responding to an assertion that NJA pilots were more qualified than NJI pilots. NJI pilots that had 2500 hours in 40 ton jets in 1995 have certainly accrued more experience in the succeeding decade.

We all deserve respect, and the apparent offer of help from one your crews to the egos of people like Seaspray in getting hired will do nothing for the perception of your crews, in fact your latest post seems to reek of the same lack of humility.

My reeking post aside, who are you talking about? I didn't see any posts from NJI pilots - only a military pilot, a female civvie and a guy whose profile seems to indicate he's a United Technologies pilot. If you're a Boeing driver at Bradley, you probably know him.

GV







~

 

[GVFlyer]

Whoa, I think I know you. Don't you also hold like 12 different World Records in Aviation too?

Sounds like you might.

NJI will not be stapled to the bottom. Our Union will decide how it's done but we will no less do it equitably. None of us want to spend a week with someone who is pissed and feels they got the short end of the stick. I can imagine that there will be some sort of fence where NJI continues in their respective plane but if they want to bid our planes then they must compete from the bottom. They went to NJI to fly G-strings and as long as they remain in the equipment, then there will be protections.

I'm sure there are plenty of fine people over there. But we have hundreds of pilots at NJA now flying smaller equipment that have more international experience in their small toes than a combined handful at NJI. Imagine what it has been like to have many pilots leave EJA (NJA) for EJI (NJI) and look back while thumbing their noses saying we would never amount to anything and they wanted to go to the bigger airplanes. Then almost every encounter with an NJI sky god, it was like a small child sticking it's tongue back at you on the other side of bullet proof glass. Sure they all got to fly from home and were hired as an F/O making more than some of our most senior captains, instead of demonstrating some form of humility for us red headed step children, most of them obviously got off on letting us know Santulli hated us and our Union. Well the day of reckoning is upon us and I personally plan on taking the high road. But for the next few months and maybe even years, we all know that there is a three year clock on the wall at NJI and many of us are having a hard time hiding the euphoric emotions while watching karma unfold.

Thanks for your post and assurances that NJI would be treated equitably. I have a number of good friends there. You clearly stated your frustrations and the unfortunate way some at NJI treated you. I'm sure most pilots at NJI don't condone that behavior and wouldn't participate in it. Just like you, they're just trying to do their job and get through the day.

GV

 

[AA717driver]

GV--Acutally it's Bethpage, Long Island, not New Jersey. But your comment on the workforce was accurate...TC

 

[GVFlyer]

GV--Acutally it's Bethpage, Long Island, not New Jersey. But your comment on the workforce was accurate...TC

Thanks, you're right. I corrected my post. It's been a long time since I looked at the data plate on a G-II.

GV

 

[G4dude]

Regarding the belief of some NJA pilots that we at NJI think we are better pilots, in five years here I have NEVER heard any talk like that. However, we absolutely DO NOT want to join your stupid union. It is nothing against the fine pilots at NJA, I promise.

 

[Hawk Driver]

Regarding the belief of some NJA pilots that we at NJI think we are better pilots, in five years here I have NEVER heard any talk like that. However, we absolutely DO NOT want to join your stupid union. It is nothing against the fine pilots at NJA, I promise.

You don't have to worry about joining our union, you will just pay the service fee and continue ops as you did before. Although, I believe you will need to follow the guidance in the T/A when/if flying with an NJA pilot.

HD

 

[ghostrider64]

GV thank you for PMing SeaSpray it seems you may have asked him not to fall on is sword any longer....


I'm retired military (guard), I was striken with the worlds best pilot syndrome that the military breeds. For good reason. How else could a 19 year old fly a gunship into the sights of an enemy surface missile or gun?

That said I'm sure he will be humbled by what he finds out he does not know as I was. Fortunately though I was smart enough to keep most of my arrogance to myself


So back to the subject at hand and friendly conversations.


How are the NJI guys taking the news of NJA guys coming over? I'm hoping that the guys that come are the ones without attitudes. Best case scenario would be folks actually decide they like one another. How will they feel about flying with our Newhire FO's? I say new hires because given the scale of pay it wont make much sense for guys here now to bid it.

 

[BrnJetFuel]

I wasn't making an argument about anything, simply responding to an assertion that NJA pilots were more qualified than NJI pilots. NJI pilots that had 2500 hours in 40 ton jets in 1995 have certainly accrued more experience in the succeeding decade.

We at NJA have heard for years all the lame excuses for us not getting the G-strings. Maybe BBJ Pilot can insert a dose of reality here. Maybe you and the others who where there at EJI in the beginning really let Gulfstreams experience argument go to your heads and justified the holier than thou arrogance that permeates from NJI society today.

However it happened, I don't care. But your argument that NJI pilots are so vastly more experienced today than our own holds no water. NJA has pilots alone in one fleet that have experience flying around the globe in equipment that can carry more fuel or take a cr@p that weighs more than your stretched Falcon. We have C-5, B-747 and yes even Barbie G-string drivers that are going to have no problems holding the reigns of that mighty mind numbing stallion you think is the chariot of the gods.

I'm sure your a great guy and many of us are looking forward to the challenges of integrating the two groups together. But lets put the big (40 ton...ohh that's impressive) ego's to bed and start dealing with real issues, like how Union protections are going to provide better working conditions and QOL for our future NJI brethren.

 

[SeaSpray]

BrnJetfuel,

The union and company have already agreed to the terms of assimilation of NJI into NJA.

Gawd, sounds like the Borg! "You will be assimilated - resistance is futile."

It is not for any of us to talk about modifications of the Letter Of Agreement, a legal document, nor make false promises about its execution.

Uh-Oh! Better get in line, BrnJetFuel, the shop steward has spoken. No free thinking or expression allowed at NJA. The union thinks and speaks for you.

Whether or not people at NJI "like" NJA or its pilots is completely irrelevant. They can always quit and go to Hong Kong if they don't like unions.

Yep, Hawkered, that's consistent with the post you made earlier in this thread saying, "This post started out with all the good intentions of building a gentle path to a stable platform that could be built upon as a bridge at a later date." Typical teamster talk, glibly talking out both sides of your mouth at the same time. At least we know how you really feel about the pilots at NJI and how the union will treat them in this glorified seat grab.

 

[semperfido]

the others who where there at EJI in the beginning really let Gulfstreams experience argument go to your heads and justified the holier than thou arrogance that permeates from NJI society today.

However it happened, I don't care. But your argument that NJI pilots are so vastly more experienced today than our own holds no water.

it is all in your own heads. pilots always have too much time to grumble about imagined misc cr@p. blown way out of any reasonable proportion.

 

[BrnJetFuel]

GV thank you for PMing SeaSpray it seems you may have asked him not to fall on is sword any longer....


I'm retired military (guard), I was striken with the worlds best pilot syndrome that the military breeds. For good reason. How else could a 19 year old fly a gunship into the sights of an enemy surface missile or gun?

That said I'm sure he will be humbled by what he finds out he does not know as I was. Fortunately though I was smart enough to keep most of my arrogance to myself

I want to say that I have nothing but the utmost respect for those that offered their all and served in the military to protect this great Nation and secure the future for our families.

Unfortunately aviation draws plenty of neglected and low self esteemed children that grow into adults who fly airplanes while dragging their past's along with them. They hang out in their uniforms at malls or other public gatherings on their days off and spend their entire existence trying to obtain approval. Those of us who want to just do our job and count the days until we are home again with our families get so sick of lending ear to these obsessive control freaks who's favorite subject is themselves.

I'll grant that not everyone is flying airplanes and what we do is looked upon as amazing and rare. Well maybe it is. But all of us pretty much would agree that all but a small amount of the population could have easily done as good or better of a job than any of us with enough training and vigilance as any of us might have put forth. Pilots who need the constant approval and stroking, let them do it on their own time. Pilots who while hanging our with their peers should really find something interesting to talk about or just shut up.

ghostrider64 and pilots like him who have discovered that each and everyone of us has some unique experiences isn't necessarily a qualifier to incessantly blab ones resume all day long. I have flown with both civilian and military alike that just don't know how to shut up and realize that what they have done isn't equivalent to Mother Teresa or Niel Armstrong. Then I have met astronauts and huge humanitarians who most wouldn't recognize who they were as they never felt it necessary to rant endlessly on about themselves. I guess if you've actually been there and done that, the smile on your face says it all.

 

[BrnJetFuel]

Uh-Oh! Better get in line, BrnJetFuel, the shop steward has spoken. No free thinking or expression allowed at NJA. The union thinks and speaks for you.




Yep, Hawkered, that's consistent with the post you made earlier in this thread saying, "This post started out with all the good intentions of building a gentle path to a stable platform that could be built upon as a bridge at a later date." Typical teamster talk, glibly talking out both sides of your mouth at the same time. At least we know how you really feel about the pilots at NJI and how the union will treat them in this glorified seat grab.

Trust me, Hawkered doesn't speak for me nor the UNION. Fortunately he promised to not post on this board anymore. He sounds like one of our Assistant Chief Pilots who went into management because the fight was getting to fierce for him and now is rearing his head out from under mama's wing as he likes what he see's. Don't worry about him, I'm sure he's neutered and harmless.

 

[GVFlyer]

We at NJA have heard for years all the lame excuses for us not getting the G-strings. Maybe BBJ Pilot can insert a dose of reality here.

I think Tom may be a little less than objective on this issue.

Maybe you and the others who where there at EJI in the beginning really let Gulfstreams experience argument go to your heads and justified the holier than thou arrogance that permeates from NJI society today.

As I have stated many times in the past, I do not now nor have I ever worked for EJI / NJI. I was a Gulfstream Aerospace minor participant in it's formation, worked on joint committees, flew EJI jets when Gulfstream got 1/8 shares, represented Gulfstream in the joint marketing effort and worked on special projects representing the manufacturer. I simply admire the NJI corporate culture and respect the professionalism of it's pilots.

However it happened, I don't care. But your argument that NJI pilots are so vastly more experienced today than our own holds no water. NJA has pilots alone in one fleet that have experience flying around the globe in equipment that can carry more fuel or take a cr@p that weighs more than your stretched Falcon.

Interesting metaphor...

I only suggested that at the time that EJI was formed Gulfstream captains with 2500 hours in type (a condition of employment put in place by Gulfstream Aerospace) were more qualified to fly Gulfstreams than were the Citation pilots at EJA. I further submitted that now that these same Gulfstream captains have been flying the aircraft for an additional 10 years, they could only have become better qualified. As you learn more about Gulfstreams you will find that this is a community that values experience in the equipment.

I'm sure your a great guy and many of us are looking forward to the challenges of integrating the two groups together. But lets put the big (40 ton...ohh that's impressive) ego's to bed and start dealing with real issues, like how Union protections are going to provide better working conditions and QOL for our future NJI brethren.

Thanks, but I won't be flying with you. The G550 actually weighs forty-five and a half tons (without counting ego weight) and I sincerely doubt that forcing pilots that want nothing to do with the Teamsters into the union will in any way benefit them.


GV

 

[squonk]

GVflyer:

As you learn more about Gulfstreams you will find that this is a community that values experience in the equipment

So how does one sprinkle pixie dust and become part of the "community"?

Does one have to have a former address of AAFB?

 

[GVFlyer]

GVflyer:



So how does one sprinkle pixie dust and become part of the "community"?

Depends on the community - any use of pixie dust what-so-ever gets you booted out of the flight test community. Other mottoes of flight test - only girls check weather and training is for weak pilots.

Does one have to have a former address of AAFB?

In the Gulfstream community - that helps.

Let me tell you a "this is no sierra" story. I'll be sure to police up my brass afterwards. When I was flying C-21s in the Big Blue, our Chief of Stan Eval, arguably the best pilot in the detachment, decided to get out and go corporate. She went to Proctor & Gamble. After 10 years as a co-pilot and SLOJO she was promoted to provisional captain. This typlifies much of the industry. Of course, compensation at outfits like P&G is exemplary, as is their equipment: four G-IV SPs, one GV, one G550 and a G550 on order.

GV





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