Freedom Airlines

[canadflyau]

trainerjet- you got my old man fired up...

"Make ALPA accountable. Accountable for what? Mesa's contract? The Mesa MEC negotiated that contract with Mesa's management."

Let me bring you up to speed.. for example, with LOA 81, a document created with help and blessing of ALPA National. It is in violation of the wo's alter-ego clause, it would allow pilots to be on furlough from their company, while pilots from another pilot's group are brought on property to fly the furloughed pilots companies equipment. Potomac Air was found (legally) just a few months ago to be in violation of the wo' alter ego clause, what has changed since then that would prompt ALPA to allow U mainline MEC to try again. Ok, I will leave it with those two examples and stop there. So, if ALPA wanted to protect our profession and be a National representation of airline pilots, they would not aid in the creation of LOA that is in blatant violation of one of the pilot bodies they represent contract, and put the two groups head to head where they then step aside. No, what ALPA would do is point out how the LOA is in violation of one of their work groups contract and cannot be endorsed by them as written (last time I checked, Duane Woerth signature goes on everyones contracts and and ALPA endorsed documents.) I feel they are doing us no favors by not protecting our future. They should work towards national pay rates for our profession..

EAP writes "However, your first comment would mean, if you were correct, that all pilots flying routes that were formerly flown by pilots now on furlough would be scabs. Wouldn't that be rediculous now? That would make the pilots flying their assigned trips at the commuters SCABS because major airline pilots are on the street that formerly flew those trips on a big airplane."

I wrote "As we know, anyone who flies an airplane who was not on the seniority list with pilots out on furlough from the seniority list is a scab." How would you feel if you were furloughed, and in the next room over they have a class full of guys in training? Would you give them pointers on your equipment.. no. You just tell me what they are if they are... I made no comments about "commuter" pilots being scabs, that is a big definition to try and figure out who you are talking about. But what I am saying is not name calling, but saying that our union has put us in precarious positions by not having a national picture. I don't doubt some of the flying I have done could be by someone's stretch of the definition be scabbing.. and I just hate that thought. It has caused me to think outside of the box and not just think about my personal career, I just want to ensure by taking a job now that I am not shooting myself in the foot for what I considered to be my future dream job with a major. Please take no offense to my opinion, its just that an opinion.

 

[trainerjet]

trainerjet

ALPA is the root cause of the entire mess we are in today with regards to mainline vs. regional pilots.

DAD.

Well, Dad...since you believe ALPA is the root cause of the entire mess we are in today..what do you propose as to the solution? You mention something about ALPA years ago should have established a baseline salary for every seat in every upstart aircraft. Boy, is that dreaming. I would like to hear how you propose that could have been effected. Simply by waving a magic wand and saying, "I say, so it is so". I'm sure each airline company's management would love to know that ALPA has the power to do that. And what steps do you propose ALPA take to prevent the whip-sawing of pilot groups? That is a management tactic, and if management is determined enough to undermine the efforts of it's union pilots, there will always be another Freedom Air. How does ALPA prevent that? Wave that same magic wand and declare "there can be no non-ALPA carriers...not nowhere, not nohow". Nope, there will always be some pilots lining up for those $14/hr jet jobs.

Again, I suggest you read the ALPA CBLs. Are you perhaps current or former ALPA?

The bottom line is airline companies are going to do business the way they see fit. It's then up to the union to take the steps necessary to see that their contract is upheld. I see all this venom directed at ALPA for all that's "wrong" with the industry. Wake up. Your venom and energies are drastically misplaced.

 

[canadflyau]

trainerjet,

Old DAD has been around this business for almost three decades, military and civilian. I have worked for a wide variety of organizations and been non-union, in a "pilots group", ALPA and will finish up in a few years with the biggest and best-you can probably figure it out. I have read "Flying The Line" and feel relatively familiar with ALPA's basic organization. The actions I have suggested for ALPA are not utopian, they are actions an organization that is supposedly representing the best interest of the most professional of professions, could have and still can take. Leaders establish the goals and objectives, then motivate and lead the members to achieve or exceed them. This is called LEADERSHIP!! A favorite saying from my earliest career was "LEAD, FOLLOW OR GET OUT OF THE WAY". Well my fellow aviator where do you fit in.
There will never be a perfect airline with a perfect contract, at least not here on earth. I do believe though that with an aggressive organization that is willing to "think out of the box", make some waves and earn the respect of its members the aviation career of the future can be as good or better than the past. Without LEADERSHIP pilots will be easy pickings for the unethical SOB's that make up the majority of airline managent.
What do you propose we do, continue doing what we have done in the past and follow ALPA to all those good $14.00 per hour jobs. I hope not.

Fair skys my friend,
DAD



























4

 

[AirBoard]

"I've got a baaaaaad feeling about this one boys".

Allright I won't try and diseminate the arguments posted above because, to be honest, I'm still trying to gather the facts myself - don't flame me if you disagree.

Seems to me any lower paid pilot group represents a treat to the future growth of those that have fought for industry leading contracts. I'm sure United, Delta, Continental, etc would be happy to explore other regional options if it's going to save them money. With the regional pay rates bar being inched along I'm sure it's on their minds. Then along comes MESA. I'm very happy where I'm at (one of the higher paying regionals) but do not like what I'm seeing over there (MESA).

I say this because I've been told our company MEC has had meetings with ALPA very recently with regards to MESA. I wish I could provide more detail to back this up but I think it makes perfect sense as to why.

Don't sell yourselves short and dilute the market with lower paid pilots. I can only imagine the crew room talk at MESA these days with these 50, 70, even 90 seat jets being talked about, all at the expense of the other regionals who have fough hard to eek out a better QOL bit by bit.

Rant over.

 

[NEDude]

Sticky situation

I think the problem many have with Freedom is the fact they are being created specifically as a way to get around dealing with ALPA, and no other reason. The other factor is that the management group that is creating them already owns three other airlines (Mesa, Air Midwest, CC Air) and is creating Freedom to provide the same service that the other three already provide.

When management owns multiple groups that provide the same service but under different working contracts, that is when you get into the potential whipsawing issue and where I think the unions have a legitimate complaint. I think pilolts at ALG, PSA and PDT also have legitimate worries about being whipsawed against eachother, as well as ASA and Comair. Lorenzo began to create a similar situation with Continental and New York Air. They are all so-called "alter-ego" airlines owned by the same corporation.

I think this is a seperate issue than two independent companies competing for the same contract. For instance I don't think there is anything wrong with Mesa competing with Trans States for USAirways Express flying. Or if it ever came down to it, Commutair competing with Express Jet for Continental Express/Connection flying. This is pure free enterprise that we see in all capitolist markets. Typically the company with the lowest bid gets the job. While I am not fond of this, it is a risk in a free enterprise market. I my mind it is similar to the aging high paid sports star being released or traded in favor of a younger, lower paid player who plays at a similar level. It sucks for the older guy, but that is how the American free enterprise system works.

Maybe I am seeing this wrong and I am open to someone trying to change my opinion, but that is how I see it.

But the issue of Mesa Air Group using four airlines which they own, and three different pilot groups (Air Midwest and Mesa share the same pilot group for those of you who don't know), to compete against each other for the same thing is a scary prospect and one that I believe ALPA should be fighting against.

 

[publisher]

Not Exactly

You need to reread the previous post.

The original and most significant reason that they were starting a new carrier were the scope restrictions on the other carriers that they own.

This would not be in the works jsut to get around ALPA. Regionals that are not owned by a major carrier live on a two edged sword. As discussed earlier, Mesa is hooked to the weakest majors and I am sure that the first concern is protecting his franchise.

The pilot thing is a side issue. To equate this to being a scab or anything else posted here is way off base.

 

[Timebuilder]

If APLA wants to remain a strong force in commercial avaition, it has to show pilots that there is VALUE associated with being ALPA members.

If pilots look at thousands of furloughed members at the "top" airlines (to use the old standard of definition) and then turn and see what is being done to pilots at PDT, ALG, etc while the union stands idly by, then who will see the value of ALPA representation? Will there be a clamour at Freedom Air or Southwest for ALPA to come in? I doubt it.

It is only when APLA can sell itself and its value to the next generation of pilots that it can ensure its place at the table. Its downfall may very well be the idea that only mainline jobs should be protected.

 

[DC8Driver]

The only benefit to being an ALPA member at any airline other than a major is: Paying dues to ALPA. They hosed every pilot at Emery because they were still getting dues from the Ryan pilots.

Please go to Emerycrew.net and read whats posted there.

ALPA is out for ALPA and Duane Worthless. ALPA was once a stand up organization. No longer. They only want money from the Regionals and second tier airlines. They don't care about you, only the bottom line. Your local MEC's, no matter how good,can do nothing about it. When the chips are down.....ALPA will turn their backs on you.

Been there done that.

Publisher: ALPA must have used the second team of lawyers for Emery negotiations. Read the LOA's sometime. What a joke. ALPA national shoved that contract down our throates. We are in "Expidited" arbitration now since August. The company keeps getting agreed to extensions. I know many who have lost houses, cars and wives. ALPA sucks. ALPA and their legal department sucks.

 

[canadflyau]

US airline loan guarantees to end

Have you wondered why LOA 81 is being thrown down the wholly owneds throuts.. its not just a hardball bargaining tactic, but also b/c the guaranteed loans are coming to an end.

"Some US lawmakers want to end air loan guarantees

By John Crawley

WASHINGTON, May 7 (Reuters) - Key U.S. lawmakers want to rescind a federal credit program set up in the aftermath of Sept. 11 to help struggling airlines, putting new pressure on two big domestic carriers considering that kind of help."

"The Air Transportation Stabilization Board, which was established to administer the credit support program, is supposed to accept applications through the end of June. The decision about whether an applicant gets government-backed guarantees for private-sector borrowing can take months."

"United Airlines <UAL.N> has recently said it might seek the credit guarantees, and US Airways Group Inc. <U.N> has said it would likely apply for them as well."05/07/02 20:47 ET
Copyright 2002 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved.

 

[chperplt]

Where within that article does it say the loan guarantees are ending as your subject line states?

 

[flx757]

Here's the entire article. Only a portion of it was posted above.

http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/020507/airlines_loans_2.html

 

[publisher]

guarantee

There is a specific ending to the loan guarantee program. I believe that it is in June.

I certainly never said that I think ALPA does anything very well. If I did, I apologize and must have been drinking.

Frankly, I do not think that they cared about Emery or care much about anything except maintaining control over 5 majors.

Either way, does not really have to do with the why of Freedom.

You voted for these ALPA guys, you got em.

 

[DC8Driver]

Your right on publisher. They didn't care about Emery or any 2nd or 3rd tier carrirer.

I can proudly say that I didn't vote for ALPA. I did however volunteer for committees and supported the organization after they were on the property. I did most importantly pay my dues.

I am a team player. I just don't think I want to play on that team anymore. Hell they let the company take their ball to play with the contract team even though the contract sez they can't.

 

[Timebuilder]

Maybe he's referencing the mention of "the end of June".

I wouldn't draw the conclusion that the loan application window's closing was the impetus for the LOA.

 

[canadflyau]

its called a buy-line

I cut and paste it in from rueters...