Freedom Airlines

[publisher]

Not Exactly

You need to reread the previous post.

The original and most significant reason that they were starting a new carrier were the scope restrictions on the other carriers that they own.

This would not be in the works jsut to get around ALPA. Regionals that are not owned by a major carrier live on a two edged sword. As discussed earlier, Mesa is hooked to the weakest majors and I am sure that the first concern is protecting his franchise.

The pilot thing is a side issue. To equate this to being a scab or anything else posted here is way off base.

 

[Timebuilder]

If APLA wants to remain a strong force in commercial avaition, it has to show pilots that there is VALUE associated with being ALPA members.

If pilots look at thousands of furloughed members at the "top" airlines (to use the old standard of definition) and then turn and see what is being done to pilots at PDT, ALG, etc while the union stands idly by, then who will see the value of ALPA representation? Will there be a clamour at Freedom Air or Southwest for ALPA to come in? I doubt it.

It is only when APLA can sell itself and its value to the next generation of pilots that it can ensure its place at the table. Its downfall may very well be the idea that only mainline jobs should be protected.

 

[DC8Driver]

The only benefit to being an ALPA member at any airline other than a major is: Paying dues to ALPA. They hosed every pilot at Emery because they were still getting dues from the Ryan pilots.

Please go to Emerycrew.net and read whats posted there.

ALPA is out for ALPA and Duane Worthless. ALPA was once a stand up organization. No longer. They only want money from the Regionals and second tier airlines. They don't care about you, only the bottom line. Your local MEC's, no matter how good,can do nothing about it. When the chips are down.....ALPA will turn their backs on you.

Been there done that.

Publisher: ALPA must have used the second team of lawyers for Emery negotiations. Read the LOA's sometime. What a joke. ALPA national shoved that contract down our throates. We are in "Expidited" arbitration now since August. The company keeps getting agreed to extensions. I know many who have lost houses, cars and wives. ALPA sucks. ALPA and their legal department sucks.

 

[canadflyau]

US airline loan guarantees to end

Have you wondered why LOA 81 is being thrown down the wholly owneds throuts.. its not just a hardball bargaining tactic, but also b/c the guaranteed loans are coming to an end.

"Some US lawmakers want to end air loan guarantees

By John Crawley

WASHINGTON, May 7 (Reuters) - Key U.S. lawmakers want to rescind a federal credit program set up in the aftermath of Sept. 11 to help struggling airlines, putting new pressure on two big domestic carriers considering that kind of help."

"The Air Transportation Stabilization Board, which was established to administer the credit support program, is supposed to accept applications through the end of June. The decision about whether an applicant gets government-backed guarantees for private-sector borrowing can take months."

"United Airlines <UAL.N> has recently said it might seek the credit guarantees, and US Airways Group Inc. <U.N> has said it would likely apply for them as well."05/07/02 20:47 ET
Copyright 2002 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved.

 

[chperplt]

Where within that article does it say the loan guarantees are ending as your subject line states?

 

[flx757]

Here's the entire article. Only a portion of it was posted above.

http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/020507/airlines_loans_2.html

 

[publisher]

guarantee

There is a specific ending to the loan guarantee program. I believe that it is in June.

I certainly never said that I think ALPA does anything very well. If I did, I apologize and must have been drinking.

Frankly, I do not think that they cared about Emery or care much about anything except maintaining control over 5 majors.

Either way, does not really have to do with the why of Freedom.

You voted for these ALPA guys, you got em.

 

[DC8Driver]

Your right on publisher. They didn't care about Emery or any 2nd or 3rd tier carrirer.

I can proudly say that I didn't vote for ALPA. I did however volunteer for committees and supported the organization after they were on the property. I did most importantly pay my dues.

I am a team player. I just don't think I want to play on that team anymore. Hell they let the company take their ball to play with the contract team even though the contract sez they can't.

 

[Timebuilder]

Maybe he's referencing the mention of "the end of June".

I wouldn't draw the conclusion that the loan application window's closing was the impetus for the LOA.

 

[canadflyau]

its called a buy-line

I cut and paste it in from rueters...

 

[NEDude]

Reply to Publisher

Publisher

You are correct that the original reason for starting Freedom was to get around the scope restriction placed by USAirways. However when the USAirways MEC dropped the objection to Mesa operating the CRJ 700 and 900's as America West Express, Mesa CEO Johnathan Orenstien stated publicly that he still was going forth with Freedom because he felt that ALPA presented unreasonable salary proposals for Mesa pilots operating them. He did not like what ALPA offered so he decided to keep Freedom afloat so he didn't have to deal with them.

Go visit the Freemesaairlines forum on Yahoo groups. There is a lot of good discussion there about Freedom and Johnathan Orenstien posts several times per day. And yes we do know it is him because he mentions the site quite often in his weekly recorded telephone update. It is a good place for any current or furloughed Mesa people to see what is going on.

 

[publisher]

thanks

Thanks for the information. I still think what I said holds true. His problems were as stated, with or without the MEC relaxing their position.
Like th regional Air Partners which he founded, he was not willing to go along with the crowd if it was not serving his interest. He would like to have an entity not dependant on a major's restrictions and weighed down by a union whose loyalty is not only not to the pilots he is dealing with but to someone else.
Sometimes the employer is in the same boat as the rjdc or other pilot groups who find the associations, unions, or government is not serving them, but in the end loyal to someone else.

 

[trainerjet]

Publsiher sees things from the management point of view, and will side with that opinion, regardless of what arguments are presented.

The RJDC supporters will see that side of the argument. The mainline pilots will see things from that point of view.

I don't believe anyone will be convinced to change their position by what is posted on this board. But it does, at times, keep the conversation lively.

The makeup of the industry and the issues it presents are different today than 10 years ago, and will be different still 10 years from now. FlyDeltasJets made a very good point in a post on a similar thread. That whatever happens, whomever "wins", I hope we can all look back on these events as something that helped all pilots. And I second his observation that I would rather be wrong than harm the profession.

 

[publisher]

right

You are certainly right from the standpoint that I see things from a different point of view. I like to think that I see it from a business point of view as much as a management point of view. They are not necessarily the same.

As stated before, businesses do not exist to employ, nor are there any inherent right to be employed. In Florida and many states, one is employed "at will".

There is a general feeling on these boards that the decisions made are merely designed to shaft the pilot employees. In the airlines that I have been around that certainly was never the objective or even a significant factor in decisions to take one action or another.

We all tend to look at situations from our own personal perspective and there is no problem with that. Frankly, I do not know of or have ever seen management that set out to lose money or shaft the people that one needs to achieve the business plan.

I do not know why this business seems to breed contemp although I believe that some of it comes from the nature of the flight crews job is one where they check in and fly. There is little interaction with a wide spectrum of people within the company.

This profession will only be harmed by immaturity and failure to see the perspective of others. I know that the awe and respect is somewhat diminished since I came up for pilots, flight attendants, and maintenance personnel as compared to my father's day.

 

[EAP]

indeed...

"I do not know why this business seems to breed contemp although I believe that some of it comes from the nature of the flight crews job is one where they check in and fly. There is little interaction with a wide spectrum of people within the company."

The career of a professinal pilot, particularly for a large (at least 500 pilot) outfit is unique and requires one to act in a very self sufficient, independant nature unseen nearly anywhere else save a few examples.

A few months ago I was trying to explain how my job worked to a friend of mine. I was explaining how you pick and know what your schedule is, to how you show up for work, and how you are the on-sight manager for the airline at your particular flight, to how the ATC system supports your PIC decisions unlike scenes protrayed in movies where ATC directs decisions, etc. He was completely confused about how you could go your entire carrer without ever meeting your boss, the cheif pilot (as long as nothing goes wrong or you don't have political aspirations). And how you have to play "you bet your job" every so many months. And how, on a massive scale, we have to be trusted to show up on time, at location, and do everything based on our own judegement, making decisions that effect anything from safety to company profitability to a large number of people's lives to our own industry's future. I certainly didn't go about trying to create a God complex description of the un-touchable airline captain - nope. I just described the job as is. And his amazement of it all reminded me we are all in an extremely unique and fortunate position, no matter what airplane we fly - be it commuter or 747.

On the other side of the coin, our "seniority based" jobs are constantly under attack from Bisquick airline managers and market forces that promote undercut performers. Let's see, add one airplane, put one part, maybe two parts pilots, and minimum pay for altitude, cook for a few years and you get...... a golden parachute! And a new job implementing those ideas at the next place with a signing bonus even!

In some days of despiration, I wish we could have an environment where we as pilots could get a golden parachute, or go to the competition when things get crappy at brand X airlines without having to start over. That's what some management types do, and we as line pilots are left holding the bag as our DNA is still imprinted with our seniority numbers at ONE and only one airline. For good. Unless you'd like to start over, and explain why you did for a while. Yes, seniority has saved us all for sure too, but as always, there are double edged swords.

So, sometimes I think we as a work group get a little contemptuous and viciously defensive of our turf when we realize somebody's latest bright idea may mutate and destroy our career DNA, if you will. That same person is likely to not stick it out for the long haul either. Yes, there are some very gifted leaders and managers out there that built the airline industry but typically we get to play lab rat for the not so good ones. It's hard for professionals who's lifes depend on learning from mistakes and not repeating them to watch the wheel get invented over and over by the bad ones.

I'm not saying all airline managers are reckless, but it's hard not to hold other's in higher positions than one's self to the same degree of scrutiny that one is held to. We as pilot's are always under scrutiny, it's part of the job.

 

[publisher]

excellent post

Excellent post and right on.

What you need to understand is that everyone else in this country is in that very same boat and most without a union or senority protection.

If their manager makes a mistake, they can be gone, and they have no recourse. There are no golden parachutes for the vast majority.

 

[canadflyau]

good post

Good Post EAP