Freedom Airlines

[trainerjet]

canadflyau,

Make ALPA accountable. Accountable for what? Mesa's contract? The Mesa MEC negotiated that contract with Mesa's management.

If you're dissastisfied with what is happening at your company, take it up with your MEC. You accuse ALPA of "mismanaging" their pilot groups. Each pilot group, through it's MEC, manages itself. Perhaps a review of ALPA's CBLs would help you understand how things work. Or perhaps you've swallowed the RJDC's rhetoric that ALPA is the root of all the problems at the regionals. Have you thought of asking to make the RJDC accountable? Ask them to make their finances public, so the supporters and contributers can see where their money is going? See if you get an answer.

There will always be pilot wannabes that will, as you put it, "show up and fly jets for $14/hr", and therin lies the rub. Until each individual pilot holds him or herself accountable, there is nothing that ALPA, the RJDC, the WOs, or anyone else can do about that.

Also, I find it interesting that all accross this board, there are neophyte pilots that have suddenly become experts on "scabs" and "scabbing".

 

[canadflyau]

trainerjet

ALPA is the root cause of the entire mess we are in today with regards to mainline vs. regional pilots. ALPA has never taken the lead in representing all of its dues paying members, and has never taken steps to prevent the whip-sawing of pilot groups - regionals vs mainline/ old vs young, etc. For example, ALPA could have years ago establlished a baseline salary for ever seat in every upstart aircraft, leveling the playing field and making a realistic starting point for all ALPA represented companies. ALPA should have stronlgly encouraged all mainline companies to unite to establish solid, maintainable scope clauses. ALPA should have insisted and taken the lead by conducting a national work to rule campaign to fight off the likes of Frank Lorenzo, Steven Wolf, et. al.
This is just a few examples of actions an organization that truly desired to represent the best interest of professional pilots could have taken to prevent the situation we find ourselves in today, however actions that require guts, creative thinking and LEADERSHIP have never been associated with ALPA. In fact the way ALPA conducts its business it facilitates such comments as yours referring to the contract negotiated and accepted by the pilots at each MEC. That works well execpt when ALPA allows the votes to be counted by domicile or individual subsidiary, with the threat of elimination of jobs at locations that vote against the contract. (Exactly what happened when AMR negotiated a 16yr contract with ALPA MEC at Eagle, threatening elimination of any subsidiary that failed to ratify!) Yep, ALPA is the problem, and without some real leadership and major changes it will always be the problem.
Well I must go now. My silver jet is waiting for me to fly to Paris

The young pilots DAD.

 

[EAP]

Woah! Woah, WOAH!

Originally posted by Canadflyay..

"It seems to be the same argument with different pilot groups.. scabbing. As we know, anyone who flies an airplane who was not on the seniority list with pilots out on furlough from the seniority list is a scab. A scab is also someone who crosses the picket line."

One thing you have right is a "scab is also someone who crosses the picket line." However, your first comment would mean, if you were correct, that all pilots flying routes that were formerly flown by pilots now on furlough would be scabs. Wouldn't that be rediculous now? That would make the pilots flying their assigned trips at the commuters SCABS because major airline pilots are on the street that formerly flew those trips on a big airplane.

There are all sorts of misguided folks who would like to call people different names based on their updated and personal defenition of a term. It holds no water with anyone that has a command on the history of the industry.

 

[Wiggums]

NEDude: Everything you say about Commutair is true. It's Gulfstream that is using former Coex Beach 1900s to fly routes in Florida. However, you bring up a good point. Where should the line be drawn? Yes, right now Commutair and Gulfstream don't have a large effect on Coex's flying, but what is going to happen if Coex's pilots wins significantly higher rates on their next contract? How easy would it be to farm out even more flying to Commutair and Gulfstream in order to save money on labor costs? That is why regional airlines need scope.

 

[EAP]

That explains it

Well, everyone knows ALPA is not the only factor in job security or career expectations. ALPA isn't the problem, it's that pesky free market economy that allows us to get on silver jets to Paris rather than giude an ox cart to the market. Market forces will alway throw a wrench in labor's utopian dreams, and there will always be change to deal with.

Your son might be the first person to tell you ALPA is only as good as the individual pilots at the PARTICULAR airline. Then, even the best group of pilots will be effected in a LARGE degree by the management structure and corporate culture at the airline. Each airline has it's own limits on what it can provide to the workgroups based on market factors. Then, each airline has it's own umbrella it operates under, depending on codeshare, international alliance, or government monopoly restrictions that will also upset "perfect world" desires.

I've worked at three different ALPA airlines, and each was drastically different because it was a different airline. Not the least suprising was how each MEC functioned and operated differently within the confines/restraints of the particular company.

 

[canadflyau]

trainerjet- you got my old man fired up...

"Make ALPA accountable. Accountable for what? Mesa's contract? The Mesa MEC negotiated that contract with Mesa's management."

Let me bring you up to speed.. for example, with LOA 81, a document created with help and blessing of ALPA National. It is in violation of the wo's alter-ego clause, it would allow pilots to be on furlough from their company, while pilots from another pilot's group are brought on property to fly the furloughed pilots companies equipment. Potomac Air was found (legally) just a few months ago to be in violation of the wo' alter ego clause, what has changed since then that would prompt ALPA to allow U mainline MEC to try again. Ok, I will leave it with those two examples and stop there. So, if ALPA wanted to protect our profession and be a National representation of airline pilots, they would not aid in the creation of LOA that is in blatant violation of one of the pilot bodies they represent contract, and put the two groups head to head where they then step aside. No, what ALPA would do is point out how the LOA is in violation of one of their work groups contract and cannot be endorsed by them as written (last time I checked, Duane Woerth signature goes on everyones contracts and and ALPA endorsed documents.) I feel they are doing us no favors by not protecting our future. They should work towards national pay rates for our profession..

EAP writes "However, your first comment would mean, if you were correct, that all pilots flying routes that were formerly flown by pilots now on furlough would be scabs. Wouldn't that be rediculous now? That would make the pilots flying their assigned trips at the commuters SCABS because major airline pilots are on the street that formerly flew those trips on a big airplane."

I wrote "As we know, anyone who flies an airplane who was not on the seniority list with pilots out on furlough from the seniority list is a scab." How would you feel if you were furloughed, and in the next room over they have a class full of guys in training? Would you give them pointers on your equipment.. no. You just tell me what they are if they are... I made no comments about "commuter" pilots being scabs, that is a big definition to try and figure out who you are talking about. But what I am saying is not name calling, but saying that our union has put us in precarious positions by not having a national picture. I don't doubt some of the flying I have done could be by someone's stretch of the definition be scabbing.. and I just hate that thought. It has caused me to think outside of the box and not just think about my personal career, I just want to ensure by taking a job now that I am not shooting myself in the foot for what I considered to be my future dream job with a major. Please take no offense to my opinion, its just that an opinion.

 

[trainerjet]

trainerjet

ALPA is the root cause of the entire mess we are in today with regards to mainline vs. regional pilots.

DAD.

Well, Dad...since you believe ALPA is the root cause of the entire mess we are in today..what do you propose as to the solution? You mention something about ALPA years ago should have established a baseline salary for every seat in every upstart aircraft. Boy, is that dreaming. I would like to hear how you propose that could have been effected. Simply by waving a magic wand and saying, "I say, so it is so". I'm sure each airline company's management would love to know that ALPA has the power to do that. And what steps do you propose ALPA take to prevent the whip-sawing of pilot groups? That is a management tactic, and if management is determined enough to undermine the efforts of it's union pilots, there will always be another Freedom Air. How does ALPA prevent that? Wave that same magic wand and declare "there can be no non-ALPA carriers...not nowhere, not nohow". Nope, there will always be some pilots lining up for those $14/hr jet jobs.

Again, I suggest you read the ALPA CBLs. Are you perhaps current or former ALPA?

The bottom line is airline companies are going to do business the way they see fit. It's then up to the union to take the steps necessary to see that their contract is upheld. I see all this venom directed at ALPA for all that's "wrong" with the industry. Wake up. Your venom and energies are drastically misplaced.

 

[canadflyau]

trainerjet,

Old DAD has been around this business for almost three decades, military and civilian. I have worked for a wide variety of organizations and been non-union, in a "pilots group", ALPA and will finish up in a few years with the biggest and best-you can probably figure it out. I have read "Flying The Line" and feel relatively familiar with ALPA's basic organization. The actions I have suggested for ALPA are not utopian, they are actions an organization that is supposedly representing the best interest of the most professional of professions, could have and still can take. Leaders establish the goals and objectives, then motivate and lead the members to achieve or exceed them. This is called LEADERSHIP!! A favorite saying from my earliest career was "LEAD, FOLLOW OR GET OUT OF THE WAY". Well my fellow aviator where do you fit in.
There will never be a perfect airline with a perfect contract, at least not here on earth. I do believe though that with an aggressive organization that is willing to "think out of the box", make some waves and earn the respect of its members the aviation career of the future can be as good or better than the past. Without LEADERSHIP pilots will be easy pickings for the unethical SOB's that make up the majority of airline managent.
What do you propose we do, continue doing what we have done in the past and follow ALPA to all those good $14.00 per hour jobs. I hope not.

Fair skys my friend,
DAD



























4

 

[AirBoard]

"I've got a baaaaaad feeling about this one boys".

Allright I won't try and diseminate the arguments posted above because, to be honest, I'm still trying to gather the facts myself - don't flame me if you disagree.

Seems to me any lower paid pilot group represents a treat to the future growth of those that have fought for industry leading contracts. I'm sure United, Delta, Continental, etc would be happy to explore other regional options if it's going to save them money. With the regional pay rates bar being inched along I'm sure it's on their minds. Then along comes MESA. I'm very happy where I'm at (one of the higher paying regionals) but do not like what I'm seeing over there (MESA).

I say this because I've been told our company MEC has had meetings with ALPA very recently with regards to MESA. I wish I could provide more detail to back this up but I think it makes perfect sense as to why.

Don't sell yourselves short and dilute the market with lower paid pilots. I can only imagine the crew room talk at MESA these days with these 50, 70, even 90 seat jets being talked about, all at the expense of the other regionals who have fough hard to eek out a better QOL bit by bit.

Rant over.

 

[NEDude]

Sticky situation

I think the problem many have with Freedom is the fact they are being created specifically as a way to get around dealing with ALPA, and no other reason. The other factor is that the management group that is creating them already owns three other airlines (Mesa, Air Midwest, CC Air) and is creating Freedom to provide the same service that the other three already provide.

When management owns multiple groups that provide the same service but under different working contracts, that is when you get into the potential whipsawing issue and where I think the unions have a legitimate complaint. I think pilolts at ALG, PSA and PDT also have legitimate worries about being whipsawed against eachother, as well as ASA and Comair. Lorenzo began to create a similar situation with Continental and New York Air. They are all so-called "alter-ego" airlines owned by the same corporation.

I think this is a seperate issue than two independent companies competing for the same contract. For instance I don't think there is anything wrong with Mesa competing with Trans States for USAirways Express flying. Or if it ever came down to it, Commutair competing with Express Jet for Continental Express/Connection flying. This is pure free enterprise that we see in all capitolist markets. Typically the company with the lowest bid gets the job. While I am not fond of this, it is a risk in a free enterprise market. I my mind it is similar to the aging high paid sports star being released or traded in favor of a younger, lower paid player who plays at a similar level. It sucks for the older guy, but that is how the American free enterprise system works.

Maybe I am seeing this wrong and I am open to someone trying to change my opinion, but that is how I see it.

But the issue of Mesa Air Group using four airlines which they own, and three different pilot groups (Air Midwest and Mesa share the same pilot group for those of you who don't know), to compete against each other for the same thing is a scary prospect and one that I believe ALPA should be fighting against.