Freedom Airline Jumpseat

[j41driver]

ALPA's take on Freedumb

From ALPA.org:

Are you considering applying for a job with Freedom Airlines? If so, think again. ALPA urges all furloughed pilots to consider the facts and their own futures before applying for or accepting a job at Freedom Airlines. Working for Freedom Air is bad for the piloting profession and it’s a gamble for your own career.

Accepting work with Freedom Airlines is detrimental to all Mesa Air Group pilots. ALPA’s position is that Freedom Airlines is an alter-ego, runaway shop carrier created by Mesa Air Group specifically to undermine the collective bargaining strength, working conditions, and career aspirations of Mesa Airlines pilots. Mesa Air Group is using Freedom Air to intimidate and threaten Mesa Airlines pilots with the transfer of work opportunities as a means of dictating pilot pay and working conditions.

BACKGROUND
Under Ornstein’s control, Mesa Air Group operates the three wholly owned subsidiary carriers, Mesa Airlines, Air Midwest, and CCAir. The Mesa and Air Midwest pilots work under a single contract and a single pilot seniority list. In other words, Mesa and Air Midwest are a single pilot group.

Mesa Air Group is attempting to establish Freedom Airlines as a non-union carrier operating 70- and 90-seat jets on a separate operating certificate. At the same time, the Mesa Airlines pilots are in contract negotiations, seeking much-needed improvements in their compensation, retirement, and working conditions. Contract negotiations have been stalled by management are going extremely slowly. In fact, ALPA has filed a lawsuit asking the federal court to compel management to bargain in good faith as outlined by the Railway Labor Act.

When you are considering your next career move, consider the following facts:

· Freedom Airlines is a non-union airline. Freedom pilots will not have the protections and benefits of union representation or a union contract. Freedom pilots would be at-will employees subject to the whims of management’s decisions. Pilots would not have representation in disciplinary actions and would be subject to unilateral changes in their compensation, benefits, and working conditions.

· The status of Freedom Airlines is subject to challenge in litigation brought by ALPA. The Association is alleging that Mesa Air Group’s use of Freedom Airlines to undermine the collective bargaining position of the Mesa pilots is a violation of the Railway Labor Act. In the ongoing lawsuit, ALPA is asking the federal court to enjoin Mesa Air Group from operating Freedom Airlines.

· ALPA will also challenge Mesa Air Group’s ability to manage labor relations at Freedom Airlines separately from those of its other carriers. The National Mediation Board has already upheld the Association’s assertion that Mesa Airlines, Air Midwest, and CCAir are, in fact, a single carrier for collective bargaining purposes. If Freedom Airlines does begin operations, ALPA will seek a similar "single-carrier" ruling from the NMB as it applies to Freedom.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Mesa Guys-Gals,
I heard floating around the system that you guys don't stay at the same hotels as the freedum pilots, because of all the fisticuffs going on.
Truth or Urban legand?
PBR

 

[100LL... Again!]

Riddlebrat-

I understand your feelings in wanting to get ahead in this profession. Why not do it in a way that is respected by the bulk of us dues-paying pilots? Instructing is unglamorous to many, but you will learn a lot if you instruct with the idea of LEARNING, instead of BUILDING TIME. Do you feel at your experience level you really deserve a job flying this type of aircraft?

 

[Riddlebratt]

Its not that i discount flight instructing because that is what I'm working on now... The only thing I see happening is that Freedom will be brought under the current management of the Mesa Air Group. The pilots that are now at Freedom will continue to Fly the 700 & 900's. That is the kink that is stalling negotiations now. Soon it will all iron itself out. And Yes without a question I deserve to fly an airplane of this size. Are you telling me that because I only have 600 logged hrs that I cannot fly this aircraft....Other pilots from my school do it everyday with only 300hrs. @ACA as well as ASA. Riddle Pilots are the best!!!!!!!!!

 

[WileE]

Hey Guys, can someone tell me why someone with very low time such as myself would give up the chance to fly crj700 and 900's. We all have the passion to fly and get the time by any means necessary. Each man has to look at himself and evaluate his own situation. I personally think it will be a while until the grass turn anywhere close to green on the other side (majors). If they gave me a chance as of now I would strongly consider the job. Freedom guy should have no shame. Good luck guys.

OK. Let's disregard all the arguments on how Freedom is bad for the profession, other pilots and all that stuff because some people just don't buy into unions and the only concern in their book is screw anyone else, how is it bad for ME?

Now how is Freedom bad for YOU, not how it's bad for all professional pilots. A couple things:

1. Freedom is a temporary thing. Adolph Orenstein has already caved on Scope and one seniority list which means that in short order (which is probably 4-6 months, short in airline negotiation terms) Freedom pilots will be coming back to work under the Mesa seniority list. You will come back into the seniority list as your hire date, which means you will be junior to EVERYONE else at Mesa down to the most junior 1900 FO sitting reserve in Philly. For anyone who hasn't clued into what really matters in the airline bid, seniority is EVERYTHING.

2. You won't get to keep all the things Johnny O promised you to come over to Freedom in the first place. Your salary will be back to the Mesa contract, whatever that is after Section 6 is done. You probably won't get the bonus you were promised (you had no union to rep you at Freedom so who will pay for the lawyers to fight for it in court, you? yeah right)

3. When you come back you will not stay in the jet. The way it's going to work out is you will return to hold only the equipment that you are senior enough to hold and guess what, that means you will be in the right seat of a beech for years, not the right seat of a jet.

4. Even if by some fluke of fate the union drops the ball and signs an agreement that lets you stay in the same equipment that you were in in at Freedom (and why on earth would they do that and what's in it for Johnny O to fight for you? You want to count on him? HA!). You will be the most junior guy on the jets for years and years and years. You won't be senior enough to bid captain for probably 6-9 years at the rate things are going, and since you are already in the jet you won't be able to bid down to lesser equipment to get CA. You are going to sit reserve at the crappiest base in the system for EVER.

5. If you ever get an interview at another union carrier, you better pray they don't find out you worked for Freedom. IF they do (and the rosters for Freedom are already public knowledge) you'll be sure to get a "Thanks but no thanks." letter from HR every **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** time. The upside to this is that in 10 or 15 years you will be at the top of Mesa's seniority list along with all the other former Freedom pilots that are also still stuck at the company. FINALLY you can hold a hard line in the jet. Woo HOO!

6. Once you are back in Mesa for your foreseeable future you will fly with a captain who despises you. Think that's going to be fun?

There are other reasons out there, but I think that's enough of a rant for now. As an alternative to all that, fly as a CFI for a while longer, building time and if you still want to work at Mesa, come to work for the company after J4J goes through and they need to hire two to three hundred new pilots to go along with the two to three hundred U.S. Air mainline pilots that will be flying all the new RJ's for Mesa.

J4J is a whole seperate issue now. Love it or hate it, it's going through at Mesa, period. It and scope is the only thing set in stone from the TA right now.

 

[inthepool]

Riddlebratt, please get your facts straight. While I agree that at 600 hours you could probably handle a right seat job in a jet, it is NOT true that 300 hour pilots from Riddle are flying for ACA or ASA. The ASA program no longer exists, and ACA's minimums for "bridge program" pilots are 600 and 100. As for Freedom Airlines, I disagree vehemently with their management etc. but I would never deny another pilot a trip home because I disagree with him on a political level.

 

[bobbysamd]

Flamebait

Hey Guys, can someone tell me why someone with very low time such as myself would give up the chance to fly crj700 and 900's. We all have the passion to fly and get the time by any means necessary. Each man has to look at himself and evaluate his own situation. I personally think it will be a while until the grass turn anywhere close to green on the other side (majors). If they gave me a chance as of now I would strongly consider the job. Freedom guy should have no shame. Good luck guys.

I'm sure glad that you weren't one of my Riddle students. If, indeed, you really went to ERAU and are not

F L A M E B A I T.

You can join a couple of your alums at Freedom.

I hate posts like this one. I had any number of students at Riddle who were good pilots and excellent people. Including a former Mesa Chief Pilot, who did not prance over to Freedom.

Posts like this "gentleman's" give the good ERAU grads a bad name.

 

[Simon Says]

Riddle.........HA..... What a joke. No doubt there are many fine aviators that come out of the school, but it wasn't the school that made them fine aviators. Riddle Bratt..........that is just what you are........a Bratt. Get your skinny arse into the real world for a little while and then come to me and tell me how it is.

ERAU is a giant bubble. It is not real world flying. They pump you all up and how it is, and then they graduate all of these newby pilots and release them to the hounds.

Come on pretty boy and flame me.

Your right Bobby.....this guy gives them a bad name.

 

[Simon Says]

Oh by the way........it will be a cold day in heII before I would let a Freedom scumbag ride on my jumpseat.

 

[Riddlebratt]

Inthepool, Bobby,N9103M, and Simonsays......you guys are the reason why pilots have the label as being arogant in the real world. You cannot attack someones beliefs. Fact be it is that I am already a Union member and respect you right to protest. In saying that I also respect the way you feel for the Union that didnt give a d*mn about you or your regional carrier before Sep 11th. But maybe through these nogotiations Alpa can step up to the plate and become one of the better unions and join the ranks of the Teamsters and my very own UAW. Now that we are talking about Riddle....I am very proud to be a Graduate of ERAU. Other than the birth of my children that was the best day of my life receiving that degree...... I noticed you guys have pride in several things such as the Denver Broncos as Well as United Parcel Service. I NEVER THOUGHT A SIMPLE QUESTION WOULD BRING OUT SO MANY NEGITIVE COMMENTS

 

[WhiteCloud]

First, let me say there is no way that I would ever cross a picket line or work at a company like Freedom. Unfortunately, all I hear from ALPA and some of the pilots on this board are threats and intimidation. Next time the issue comes up for a vote are you willing to give up something so that newhires are treated properly when they come to your company? It's got to work both ways.

 

[bobbysamd]

Arrogant? Moi?

Inthepool, Bobby,N9103M, and Simonsays......you guys are the reason why pilots have the label as being arogant in the real world. You cannot attack someones beliefs. Fact be it is that I am already a Union member and respect you right to protest. In saying that I also respect the way you feel for the Union that didnt give a d*mn about you or your regional carrier before Sep 11th. But maybe through these nogotiations Alpa can step up to the plate and become one of the better unions and join the ranks of the Teamsters and my very own UAW. Now that we are talking about Riddle....I am very proud to be a Graduate of ERAU. Other than the birth of my children that was the best day of my life receiving that degree...... I noticed you guys have pride in several things such as the Denver Broncos as Well as United Parcel Service. I NEVER THOUGHT A SIMPLE QUESTION WOULD BRING OUT SO MANY NEGITIVE COMMENTS

Read a few of my other posts. I would have jumped for joy to be invited to class at a regional. But I wouldn't have done so as a scab.

I could have sent materials to Eastern when it was recruiting "replacement" pilots in circa 1990-'91. I might have had a chance; in fact I met an FSI instructor who got on there. The very notion turned my stomach. The epilogue to that instructor's story was that Eastern showed her the door, after it promised jobs and seniority to these "replacement" pilots. She was lucky to have FSI take her back.

I find it ironic that you, as a member of one of the strongest labor unions, a virtual pillar of the AFL-CIO, would consider flying for Freedom, which is tantamount to crossing a line. Maybe you are not realizing that Frank O at Mesa started Freedom as a non-union carrier. Review of Mesa's history reveals oppressive management tactics from its founding until the pilots' union was voted on the property. Mesa's management fought tooth and nail to prevent its pilots from organizing. As a UAW member, you should have been well schooled in solidarity. I recall from my OKC days that the GM UAW members were strong and solid.

Try reviewing the whys and wherefores of Freedom's creation, read both volumes of Flying the Line and as a union member you'll see the issue differently. Cheers.

 

[greg20]

bobbysamd said:

Maybe you are not realizing that Frank O at Mesa started Freedom as a non-union carrier.

Not to nitpick, but it was Jonathan Ornstein who started Freedom. I think your mind was still on Eastern with that "Frank" stuff.

 

[bobbysamd]

Frankie L-Jonny L, it's all the same . . .

bobbysamd said:



Not to nitpick, but it was Jonathan Ornstein who started Freedom. I think your mind was still on Eastern with that "Frank" stuff.

I meant to write Jonny L. It was with intention. Frank Lorenzo, Jonathan Ornstein, same difference. Just trying to make a point.

 

[Riddlebratt]

N9103M Once again I will tell you I deserve the opportunity to fly a aircraft such as the 700 and 900 because I feel that I can do so. But you are right it does sound a little arrogant. You sure know how to welcome someone. I still enjoy this board. thats the reason why I Joined here...to get both sides of the story.

Bobbysamd Don't be misunderstood about my intensions. I intend on getting all the info possible about this airline before passing judgement. I have been a UAW member for 10yrs....If there is one single thing you will learn is that you must evaluate things for yourself vs depending on a union to get things done for you. My Father was an Eastern Airlines Pilot whom DID NOT cross the picket line and eventually lost his job as well. He places blame on the union as well as Lorenzo. I would never cross a picket line. But until there is a picket line you cannot have a scab.

 

[Riddlebratt]

Ziggy1 you are right on point

 

[Strikefinder]

A few, hopefully unemotional thoughts of mine on the subject...

Freedom Airlines is a virtual crossing of the picket line. The theory that you can't cross a picket line until there is one misses the overall reason why doing such a thing is wrong in the first place. Freedom Airline pilots are basically saying that they are willing to take a hard-earned job away from a tenured pilot because they want to fly for a regional, and don't really care about being paid a reasonable wage or having decent work rules. This hurts the collective bargaining power of the Mesa pilots just as much as crossing a picket line does; It is irrelevant as to the manner of execution of such double-crossing. This is perpetuated under the guise of "I don't want to wait for it. Why should I spend two years earning 2 or 3 thousand hours when I can go now?"

Making the argument to such individuals that the experience gained in these types of environments is beneficial to the safe operation of the passenger aircraft is a self-defeating one, as people who think in this fashion aren't interested in the well-being of the people in the back any more so than the people whose jobs they are undermining. "I have to eat, too" is the favorite rallying cry. Yet it seems like so many of us managed to eat during the times spent hauling checks or CFIing. In fact, many furloughed friends went and got (gasp!) another job in the process.

To those of you who can't fathom why we're all angered when an aviation school graduate gets on here and starts whining about whether or not he or she is capable of piloting a jet aircraft, think about it this way. You believe you deserve that job because you went to Embry Riddle (or UND, or Purdue, or whatever), and since you are capable it should be available to you. However, capability and deservedness are not necessarily related. I cannot possibly believe that a pilot with five times your level of flight experience is less deserving of a job than you are, as he has certainly worked harder and gone through a great deal more in the process to earn the position he maintains. I am, myself, a Purdue University graduate, albeit one who spent a year flying freight around at night and one who has packed about 800 hours of dual given into his logbook. My degree is a part of my qualifications, but it does not solely stand as a reason anyone should employ me, and it certainly does not give me the right to alienate the people who have worked harder to get where they are because I want to fly a jet right now. I don't begrudge bridge programs, nor pilot who are hired with 600 hours who are competant pilots. I do take offense, however, to someone that essentially takes my job away from me because they "deserve to fly a jet, too." I'm not bringing in six figures and working eight days a month; This isn't some Robin Hood fantasy where you're shooting a guy in the foot whose idea of a cheap car is a Lexus. I barely get by as it is, and your impatience might put me in a position where I'm suddenly out on the street because you're willing to do it for less. What happens then--do I offer to do your job for less money? In the end, we lose, and stockholders walk away with bigger profits. If I can keep you and others from taking that job, then management will be faced with the prospect of paying higher wages, which gives me a chance (and eventually you) to live a reasonable life as a reward for my hard work.

I'm not a captain yet. If I were, however, I would refuse Freedom Airlines Pilots the jumpseat. It's not personal. I don't take it personally that they took the job in the first place. But I can't support it. You sold me out for a jet-driving job, so while we're being selfish, why should I help you out? Why do you expect that I should "be professional" and reward you for hurting me? By taking the job, you've already demonstrated that my future is of no concern of yours.

 

[inthepool]

It seems to me the real issue when you get down to it is that we as pilots have got to stand together because no one out there will do it for us. The fact of the matter is, in this business everyone is out to screw each other. Management wants us to work for less than we can live on. We want to work for more than management can afford to pay us. ALPA, who represents both Majors and Regionals plays both sides against the middle with higher wages in one hand and scope clauses in the other. We as pilots can't count on ALPA to act in our best interests simply because they're ALPA, and management certainly isn't going to do it, so it's pretty much up to us to stick together and do the right thing. That means that those of us who flew checks single pilot IFR at night in the winter need to be able to get along with those of us who graduated from aviation colleges and are equipped with more book knowledge than real world experience, and vice versa. When it comes down to it folks, Management and ALPA are going to look out for their own best interests, which means that we need to do the same. So should you work for Freedom? Probably not, because of what strikefinder said so well in his post. Should you deny someone the jumpseat for flying with Freedom? That just breeds further hostility amongst ourselves.

 

[Jeepman]

Should you deny someone the jumpseat for flying with Freedom? That just breeds further hostility amongst ourselves.

Let me see, your against Freedom but not the pilots. YOU DON'T THINK THAT LETTING A FREEDOM AIR PILOT RIDING YOUR JUMPSEAT IS SUPPURTING THEM AND ENDANGERING YOUR JOB? I'm sorry but I am not gonna let some guy board my plane to go to work & back for a company that is "Free" for management & "DUMB" for pilots. Great, now every major has got there eye on Freedom and going hmmmm... These guys are helping to support a rollback of regional pilot's pay!!

Strikefinder, I agree with you 120%

I thought about the argument that well, "I gotta feed my family" However, I would search up & down left & right to find another job than to support J.O. in his Enron style of shafting the working pilots. FREEDOM PILOTS HAVE NO RESPECT WHEN THEY CAN'T EVEN TELL THE TRUTH FOR WHO THEY WORK FOR. AN I.D. THAT ACTUALLY CARRIES A PICTURE OF THE AMERICAN FLAG ON IT!! Many pilots, such has my self have sacrificed alot to get where we are now. Flight instructing, flying cargo at night for next to nothing, and now this....ENOUGH!!!!

 

[azpilot]

If the TA gets approved the Freedom losers will be on the bottom of the seniority list. This means they will most likely get pushed out of the jets they are flying and down into the 1900. I have heard those that were hired from the street will definately go to the bottom and there is debate about the losers who left Mesa to shortcut their fellow pilots. In the words of one former Dash 8 Captain, "But I am getting PIC jet time now." Hopefully not anymore and he screwed himself out of any recommendations for hire at HP,SW and any other airline who knew someone at.

What will be even better if most of these folks get to sit on reserve and hardly fly at all.

Listen and learn, don't do what these folks did. You will be sorry.

- AZpilot