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Freedom Airline Jumpseat

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First, let me say there is no way that I would ever cross a picket line or work at a company like Freedom. Unfortunately, all I hear from ALPA and some of the pilots on this board are threats and intimidation. Next time the issue comes up for a vote are you willing to give up something so that newhires are treated properly when they come to your company? It's got to work both ways.
 
Arrogant? Moi?

Riddlebratt said:
Inthepool, Bobby,N9103M, and Simonsays......you guys are the reason why pilots have the label as being arogant in the real world. You cannot attack someones beliefs. Fact be it is that I am already a Union member and respect you right to protest. In saying that I also respect the way you feel for the Union that didnt give a d*mn about you or your regional carrier before Sep 11th. But maybe through these nogotiations Alpa can step up to the plate and become one of the better unions and join the ranks of the Teamsters and my very own UAW. Now that we are talking about Riddle....I am very proud to be a Graduate of ERAU. Other than the birth of my children that was the best day of my life receiving that degree...... I noticed you guys have pride in several things such as the Denver Broncos as Well as United Parcel Service. I NEVER THOUGHT A SIMPLE QUESTION WOULD BRING OUT SO MANY NEGITIVE COMMENTS
Read a few of my other posts. I would have jumped for joy to be invited to class at a regional. But I wouldn't have done so as a scab.

I could have sent materials to Eastern when it was recruiting "replacement" pilots in circa 1990-'91. I might have had a chance; in fact I met an FSI instructor who got on there. The very notion turned my stomach. The epilogue to that instructor's story was that Eastern showed her the door, after it promised jobs and seniority to these "replacement" pilots. She was lucky to have FSI take her back.

I find it ironic that you, as a member of one of the strongest labor unions, a virtual pillar of the AFL-CIO, would consider flying for Freedom, which is tantamount to crossing a line. Maybe you are not realizing that Frank O at Mesa started Freedom as a non-union carrier. Review of Mesa's history reveals oppressive management tactics from its founding until the pilots' union was voted on the property. Mesa's management fought tooth and nail to prevent its pilots from organizing. As a UAW member, you should have been well schooled in solidarity. I recall from my OKC days that the GM UAW members were strong and solid.

Try reviewing the whys and wherefores of Freedom's creation, read both volumes of Flying the Line and as a union member you'll see the issue differently. Cheers.
 
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bobbysamd said:

Maybe you are not realizing that Frank O at Mesa started Freedom as a non-union carrier.

Not to nitpick, but it was Jonathan Ornstein who started Freedom. I think your mind was still on Eastern with that "Frank" stuff. :)
 
Frankie L-Jonny L, it's all the same . . .

greg20 said:
bobbysamd said:



Not to nitpick, but it was Jonathan Ornstein who started Freedom. I think your mind was still on Eastern with that "Frank" stuff. :)
I meant to write Jonny L. It was with intention. Frank Lorenzo, Jonathan Ornstein, same difference. Just trying to make a point.
 
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N9103M Once again I will tell you I deserve the opportunity to fly a aircraft such as the 700 and 900 because I feel that I can do so. But you are right it does sound a little arrogant. You sure know how to welcome someone. I still enjoy this board. thats the reason why I Joined here...to get both sides of the story.

Bobbysamd Don't be misunderstood about my intensions. I intend on getting all the info possible about this airline before passing judgement. I have been a UAW member for 10yrs....If there is one single thing you will learn is that you must evaluate things for yourself vs depending on a union to get things done for you. My Father was an Eastern Airlines Pilot whom DID NOT cross the picket line and eventually lost his job as well. He places blame on the union as well as Lorenzo. I would never cross a picket line. But until there is a picket line you cannot have a scab.
 
A few, hopefully unemotional thoughts of mine on the subject...

Freedom Airlines is a virtual crossing of the picket line. The theory that you can't cross a picket line until there is one misses the overall reason why doing such a thing is wrong in the first place. Freedom Airline pilots are basically saying that they are willing to take a hard-earned job away from a tenured pilot because they want to fly for a regional, and don't really care about being paid a reasonable wage or having decent work rules. This hurts the collective bargaining power of the Mesa pilots just as much as crossing a picket line does; It is irrelevant as to the manner of execution of such double-crossing. This is perpetuated under the guise of "I don't want to wait for it. Why should I spend two years earning 2 or 3 thousand hours when I can go now?"

Making the argument to such individuals that the experience gained in these types of environments is beneficial to the safe operation of the passenger aircraft is a self-defeating one, as people who think in this fashion aren't interested in the well-being of the people in the back any more so than the people whose jobs they are undermining. "I have to eat, too" is the favorite rallying cry. Yet it seems like so many of us managed to eat during the times spent hauling checks or CFIing. In fact, many furloughed friends went and got (gasp!) another job in the process.

To those of you who can't fathom why we're all angered when an aviation school graduate gets on here and starts whining about whether or not he or she is capable of piloting a jet aircraft, think about it this way. You believe you deserve that job because you went to Embry Riddle (or UND, or Purdue, or whatever), and since you are capable it should be available to you. However, capability and deservedness are not necessarily related. I cannot possibly believe that a pilot with five times your level of flight experience is less deserving of a job than you are, as he has certainly worked harder and gone through a great deal more in the process to earn the position he maintains. I am, myself, a Purdue University graduate, albeit one who spent a year flying freight around at night and one who has packed about 800 hours of dual given into his logbook. My degree is a part of my qualifications, but it does not solely stand as a reason anyone should employ me, and it certainly does not give me the right to alienate the people who have worked harder to get where they are because I want to fly a jet right now. I don't begrudge bridge programs, nor pilot who are hired with 600 hours who are competant pilots. I do take offense, however, to someone that essentially takes my job away from me because they "deserve to fly a jet, too." I'm not bringing in six figures and working eight days a month; This isn't some Robin Hood fantasy where you're shooting a guy in the foot whose idea of a cheap car is a Lexus. I barely get by as it is, and your impatience might put me in a position where I'm suddenly out on the street because you're willing to do it for less. What happens then--do I offer to do your job for less money? In the end, we lose, and stockholders walk away with bigger profits. If I can keep you and others from taking that job, then management will be faced with the prospect of paying higher wages, which gives me a chance (and eventually you) to live a reasonable life as a reward for my hard work.

I'm not a captain yet. If I were, however, I would refuse Freedom Airlines Pilots the jumpseat. It's not personal. I don't take it personally that they took the job in the first place. But I can't support it. You sold me out for a jet-driving job, so while we're being selfish, why should I help you out? Why do you expect that I should "be professional" and reward you for hurting me? By taking the job, you've already demonstrated that my future is of no concern of yours.
 
It seems to me the real issue when you get down to it is that we as pilots have got to stand together because no one out there will do it for us. The fact of the matter is, in this business everyone is out to screw each other. Management wants us to work for less than we can live on. We want to work for more than management can afford to pay us. ALPA, who represents both Majors and Regionals plays both sides against the middle with higher wages in one hand and scope clauses in the other. We as pilots can't count on ALPA to act in our best interests simply because they're ALPA, and management certainly isn't going to do it, so it's pretty much up to us to stick together and do the right thing. That means that those of us who flew checks single pilot IFR at night in the winter need to be able to get along with those of us who graduated from aviation colleges and are equipped with more book knowledge than real world experience, and vice versa. When it comes down to it folks, Management and ALPA are going to look out for their own best interests, which means that we need to do the same. So should you work for Freedom? Probably not, because of what strikefinder said so well in his post. Should you deny someone the jumpseat for flying with Freedom? That just breeds further hostility amongst ourselves.
 
inthepool said:
Should you deny someone the jumpseat for flying with Freedom? That just breeds further hostility amongst ourselves.


Let me see, your against Freedom but not the pilots. YOU DON'T THINK THAT LETTING A FREEDOM AIR PILOT RIDING YOUR JUMPSEAT IS SUPPURTING THEM AND ENDANGERING YOUR JOB? I'm sorry but I am not gonna let some guy board my plane to go to work & back for a company that is "Free" for management & "DUMB" for pilots. Great, now every major has got there eye on Freedom and going hmmmm... These guys are helping to support a rollback of regional pilot's pay!!

Strikefinder, I agree with you 120%

I thought about the argument that well, "I gotta feed my family" However, I would search up & down left & right to find another job than to support J.O. in his Enron style of shafting the working pilots. FREEDOM PILOTS HAVE NO RESPECT WHEN THEY CAN'T EVEN TELL THE TRUTH FOR WHO THEY WORK FOR. AN I.D. THAT ACTUALLY CARRIES A PICTURE OF THE AMERICAN FLAG ON IT!! Many pilots, such has my self have sacrificed alot to get where we are now. Flight instructing, flying cargo at night for next to nothing, and now this....ENOUGH!!!!
 
If the TA gets approved the Freedom losers will be on the bottom of the seniority list. This means they will most likely get pushed out of the jets they are flying and down into the 1900. I have heard those that were hired from the street will definately go to the bottom and there is debate about the losers who left Mesa to shortcut their fellow pilots. In the words of one former Dash 8 Captain, "But I am getting PIC jet time now." Hopefully not anymore and he screwed himself out of any recommendations for hire at HP,SW and any other airline who knew someone at.

What will be even better if most of these folks get to sit on reserve and hardly fly at all.

Listen and learn, don't do what these folks did. You will be sorry.

- AZpilot
 
Alter Egos and Non-Unions and flying air

Riddlebratt said:
N9103M Once again I will tell you I deserve the opportunity to fly a aircraft such as the 700 and 900 because I feel that I can do so. But you are right it does sound a little arrogant. You sure know how to welcome someone. I still enjoy this board. thats the reason why I Joined here...to get both sides of the story.

Bobbysamd Don't be misunderstood about my intensions. I intend on getting all the info possible about this airline before passing judgement. I have been a UAW member for 10yrs....If there is one single thing you will learn is that you must evaluate things for yourself vs depending on a union to get things done for you. My Father was an Eastern Airlines Pilot whom DID NOT cross the picket line and eventually lost his job as well. He places blame on the union as well as Lorenzo. I would never cross a picket line. But until there is a picket line you cannot have a scab.
I'd like to address both points.

I'd like to think that I, too, could fly an RJ if I got current again. The RJ is an airplane, plain and simple (but, to me, what a ride it would be! :) ). That's what we do. Fly airplanes. If you've been taught how to fly properly, i.e. taught the correct thought processes, any competent pilot can fly any airplane. Look at it another way. Some of the first B707 airline pilots in the late '50s likely were flying open cockpit airmail, Fords, DC-2s and DC-3s during the early part of their careers. Great airplanes, but rudimentary by today's standards. They learned. Kinda gives you pause, doesn't it?

In that light, not too many of these early airline pilots hopped into airliners at low time. They paid their dues, and how. Flying open-cockpit airmail. Flight instructing. Flying in hazardous VFR. They sure got their experience before they were hired.

No one feels that you don't deserve the opportunity. Take it from me, everyone deserves an opportunity, but not strictly because you are a Riddle graduate, or U.N.D. grad, or LeTourneau U. grad, or FSI grad, or Mesa grad, ad infinitum while those who learned how to fly at their local FBO or from their friendly instructor are lesser beings. After reading your newer posts I cannot say that this is you, but I knew a number of Riddlers during my time there who exhibited boundless arrogance. You deserve an opportunity because you merit the opportunity.

Once more, my friend, I urge you to read some airline history books, such as Flying the Line. Also read up on how Uncle Frank started up non-union New York Air. I believe that Al Feldman (?) tried the same thing when he tried to launch Frontier Horizon as an alter-ego to Frontier. That was an alter-ego, just as Jonny L. (intentional) has started Freedom. Go talk to your dad and ask him.

One more book that you might enjoy and learn from is Fate Is The Hunter by Ernest Gann.

Once more, best of luck, and consider carefully your career steps.
 
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Jeepman said:
[ I'm sorry but I am not gonna let some guy board my plane to go to work & back for a company that is "Free" for management & "DUMB" for pilots.]

I just have to ask if you're also turning down the management pilots from MESA that show up wanting to jump?
 
Ziggy1


If they are on our Freedom pilot list then they are DENIED!
 
Just out of curiousity.. what about if the shoe is on the other foot? Say you're trying to get from Phoenix to Fresno, and the only airline that does that route is Freedom. Your options: 1) Catch a jumpseat on the airline that you deny jumpseats to, or 2) rent a car and make the 600 mile drive. Just wondering how many people would gladly hop a free ride while denying their pilots the same courtesy.

Don't get me wrong. I'm against Freedom and what the airline stands for. I live in Phoenix, and am out of a 121 job right now (and probably for a very long time), and the thought never crossed my mind to look into them. Hell, I'm having too much fun flyin' dusters out of Eloy! Regards everyone.
 
SkySpray said:
Just out of curiousity.. what about if the shoe is on the other foot? Say you're trying to get from Phoenix to Fresno, and the only airline that does that route is Freedom. Your options: 1) Catch a jumpseat on the airline that you deny jumpseats to, or 2) rent a car and make the 600 mile drive. Just wondering how many people would gladly hop a free ride while denying their pilots the same courtesy.

Don't get me wrong. I'm against Freedom and what the airline stands for. I live in Phoenix, and am out of a 121 job right now (and probably for a very long time), and the thought never crossed my mind to look into them. Hell, I'm having too much fun flyin' dusters out of Eloy! Regards everyone.

To bad Southwest doesn't go to Fresno! Here's a weird glitch on Travelocity. Flight 6715 operated by Air Montreal for America West.

I would find some other way to get there even if it was a pain in the butt.

That's just me. Hopefully if the TA is approved Freedumb will be gone.

- AZPilot
 
I assume you're talking about the America West TA? From what I'm hearing, it sounds like it will most likely be voted down.
 
SkySpray said:
I assume you're talking about the America West TA? From what I'm hearing, it sounds like it will most likely be voted down.

No, I was talking about Mesa's. The new Mesa TA calls for one list including bringing back CC Air pilots. I had heard the America West TA might call for all contract carriers to be union but I am not sure of that. I have also heard that it might get voted down. We'll have to wait and see.
 
HomerJay I resent your remarks about Riddle. As a Riddle graduate I don't consider myself an arrogant or aloof pilot. What I do know is that I got a helluva good education at Riddle. While the flight training was not as good as it could have been, the classroom study was top-notch. I am not the greatest pilot, but I'm a better pilot for having gone to Riddle. Yes, it was expensive, but in my mind it was worth every penny. Do you have a four year degree? If so, where from and what in? If you don't, I suggest you try one before discounting it as worthless.
 
-----------------------
"...certainly does not give me the right to alienate the people who have worked harder to get where they are because I want to fly a jet right now. "
-----------------------

EXACTLY! Sometimes, someone wants something SO badly that they begin to feel that they deserve it so much more than others.


Riddlebrat-

There are 'trainee' FOs and 'pilot' FOs Wouldn't you rather get into that seat when you possess a substantial portion of the skills, instead of the barest minimum?

None of these low time bridge programs should EVER have been allowed. Like Freedom, PFT, or whatever, they do NOTHING to help further the profession. As pilots, we have sold ourselves out allowing these programs to exist.
 
And another thing-

Pointing at where you went to school and thinking that this in some way gives you some sort of elite status is really weak.

Every school has turned out its share of boneheads who shouldn't even have a private certificate.

Holding up your diploma is almost like hiding behind it.

Let's see how you fly and how much you know. Pointing at your 'training' is like saying your dad can beat up my dad. Maybe he can, but does that mean that YOU can beat ME up? Now that just depends, pardner.
 
Homer Jay and 100LL First off get a grip on reality!!! People express how proud they are about their Universities in many different ways. Catch on to my Name Riddlebratt!!!! get it ??? you may or may not. Homer first off I am blessed to have had another company pay for each and every dime of my college education at Riddle. By me wanting only the best Aviation Based Education I went to other airline pilots besides my father for proper direction.........they pointed me towards Riddle.. So 4yrs later I became an Embry-Riddle alum.. Oh So Proud of it. I met alot of neat people along the way and top notch education to go along with them. Not to diss other schools such as Auburn,Purdue Flight Safety and the list goes on. I just love my school point blank end of story.
I dont think that I am better than the next person but I do have confidence. 98% of my flight training came from military flying schools. My job did'nt pay for the flying only the academics.

100LL I am not in a bridge program.... My comments about being a low time jet pilot deal only and directly with the pilots over at Freedom (If they can fly them why can't I). I am presently flying Beech Barons and T-34's working on my CFI improving my flying skills. BUT I STILL WANT TO FLY JETS JUST LIKE YOU!!!!!!!! Now I must get back to work before my boss catch me and put a dent into my flight fund.... Buy American
 
hey Skysprayer, were you in class at American in July 2001? There was a crop-duster fella from Ariz in my class.. send me a message if this is who I think it is. Hoss
 
HOSS! Yup that's me! Judging from your profile, I know who you are. I will send you a message as soon as I figger out how! I'm just the FNG.
 
Riddlebrat-

The point is not that you should or should not be flying RJ's.

The point is that 600 hr pilots going to the likes of freedom in order to 'get ahead' quickly is costing the more qualified pilots an opportunity.

It is turning the profession upside down in some ways.

I am a free market believer, but there has to be a line somewhere.
 
100LL.....Again I understand that... Thats why I continue to gain experience daily... By the time things turn around I will have the time I need to get hired somewhere....Good luck with your own career and I hope the trend reverses soon.... Keep the skies safe...........................Buy American.................................
 
Fly'n Freedom Be Concerned

Now that Freedom will be on the same seniority list I recommend anyone looking at coming to Mesa be concerned about being furloughed in the near future. Once J4J begins some pilots may be getting layed off. It all depends how many new aircraft come on board and how many J4J folks come on board. AS well as what aircraft will be used. It's possible some aircraft culd be parked or less utilized. Thus, laid off pilots. Just a thought.

Ranch'r
 
I don't think so.

Furloughs are not nearly as likely as more hiring, probably within 6 months. The only excess in pilots right now is about 30 pilots in the ERJ. They are going to sucked up quickly be the 700's since they never had them fully manned in the captain seat. Plus, don't forget that J4J specifies that USAir pilots will only be hired to fill half the seats on NEW aircraft, not any of the aircraft Mesa Air group already flys, the other half of the positions will be pulled from Mesa pilots so there will be a net increase.

Also from what I understand the new Scope agreement means that any operational changes at Mesa that will affect 25% or more of the pilots has to be approved by the pilot group, so Johnny O can't simply get rid of any aircraft on a whim anymore. The props aren't going anywhere.

Still, I do agree that anyone thinking of coming to Mesa seriously consider other options, at least for right now. The union's priority was scope, J4J and the single seniority list. That means that there likely won't be any pay raises, quality of life improvements or anything else improved. The meat of the contract will be status quo, leaving us under the same sub-standard conditions as we are already flying on. I'd recommend going to some of the other regionals hiring like Comair if you have any choice at all. That is, unless there are people out there who like flying a jet for a part 121 carrier and at the same time still qualifying for food stamps.
 
I find it a bit funny that the with Freedom the Mesa Pilots have
all of a sudden become hard core trade unionists...

I'll put it in a nutshell. Mesa IS Freedom to the Wholly-Owneds.
(PSA, PDT, and ALG)

The W/O's have done a **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** sight more for regional airline
contracts than anyone at MAG. Now, someone undercuts them,
and viola! they're scabs. What do you think you are to us?

Well, guess what kids? Read a text on aviation labor sometime
and get back to me on what is the definition of a "scab."
And it's not someone you dislike.

The Mesa/ALPA national position on Freedom is so full of holes
that it could be used as a cheese grader. And by dropping the
scab bomb, you cheapen it. But who cares? It's all about you,
right?

I have friends at AM/Mesa. They went there with the same rationale that I went with to Lakes. Any regional job. Period.
Why didn't we hold out for Comair or Piedmont? You Mesa guys
can answer.
 
Does anyone on here have the Freedom Sienority list? If so please post...
 
1. Nobody deserves to fly anything...they earn it!! And to earn it does not mean that you have a ton of flying time. I have flown with many airline captains that have scared the crap out of me, and they had a boat load more time than I did. You need experience to go along with the flight time.

2. I am also a graduate of ERAU, and I agree 100% that alot of the grads are very arrogant just because they went to Riddle. Lots of dorks as well. I stayed away from one very top notch company because alot of the pilots there were Riddle grads (due to a bridge program and other factors). That being said, I personally felt well prepared for all airline ground schools that I have attended (2 intitial, 1 transition). I too believe that the school is over priced, in one area. The flight training. The actual tuition (college credits) when I was there made ERAU the cheapest private school in the East. I watched as friends of mine from high school went on to Notre Dame, Boston College and Villanova. They paid over thirty thousand dollars a year. For what, to get a degree from a school who's name is well known in the fields they wanted to pursue as careers. That is exactly what I did!

3. All I have too say about Freedom Air is that it will always exist in my mind. The pilot list will live in my flight case for ever.

Fire Away,

Mayday.
 

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