Free First Officers!

[bigD]

Osprey - as a professional pilot still in the works, I don't have many of the answers, but after hearing the "what's the difference between PFT and buying the hours to a CFI?" question a few times, I thought I'd put in my two cents.

I'm in the process of building multi time right now. MEI's around here now need about 150 hours of PIC in twins before the insurance companies allow them to instruct, so essentially I'm 'buying time' by flying around in a Duchess. How is this different than paying Gulfstream or someone to sit in the right seat? Well, for one thing - flying the Duchess isn't just a means to build time. I mean, that's ONE reason I do it - but crap, I'm just enjoying the flying. I take my girlfriend to Padre, go get BBQ in Llano - get dinner in San Antonio or Houston. I'm planning on flying to Ohio in May to spend some time with family.

The way I see it - even if I had NO intention of being a professional pilot sometime in the future, I'd still have no problem forking over the cash to bum around in the Duchess (or any other plane I rent). I just love being up there, and it seems to me that the love of just flying around simply for the sake of flying just makes more sense financially than spending the money to sit and tune squawk codes into the transponder of a 1900. I guess I just don't understand how anyone who truly loves to fly cannot consider the 'process' of becoming an airline pilot to be part of the fun in it. It's a long hard road, and I'm still working through it - but I can't say that I'm not having a blast going through it!

As far as I'm concerned, a zero time pilot who sits down and thinks, "What is the cheapest and fastest way to get to the right seat at a commuter..." just doesn't understand why the vast majority of us are doing this to begin with.

 

[JOHN LA HAYE]

OsperyFE,

Let me tell what my gripe with PFT is. The right seat is NOT in the airplane just to fulfill some arcane FAA regulation, or to add revinue to thw bottom line. The FO is a required crewmember because the people or the items is the back deserve the added member of saftey that is provided by having a QUALFIED pilot in the right seat.
Having flown transport catagory aircraft, I can tell you that the learning curve is great enough for a pilot with time in the saddle.
Any "pilot" that is still in the process of learning how to fly at all is too far behind the power curve to be in a position to have the lives of passengers in their hands.
I do not have an issue with fast track time builders. Get what you can. However, I do take great issue with scum bag no account operations that take advantage of student pilots and sell them a bill of goods.
I am not worried about a pilot getting ahead of me by buying time.If you can buy the amount of flight time I have, you are spending more money than I have earned in several years.
In which case you should find a better way to spend your cash.
If that is the cast let me know, I'd be happy to follow along behind you and pick-up the cash that is falling out of your pockets.

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T v. Pleasure Flying

Yes, indeed, BigD is buying time. What he is doing is pleasure flying. In so doing, he is building multi time to make the 150-hour PIC requirement for insurance. He is not paying for training.

Before I decided to make aviation my full-time vocation and before I got my CFI, I was a pleasure pilot. I rented the airplane every chance I could because I liked flying, just like any other weekend pilot. I was not employed as a pilot while I was a pleasure pilot. Was I paying for training? No.

Once again, if you apply for and are offered a job as a right-seater but must give them money for them to to train you as a condition of "employment," that is P-F-T. Although these companies may publish minimum "requirements" to be considered for one of these "positions," the only true requirement for "hire" is the size of the "applicant's" checking account. OspreyFE, that's the point of P-F-T that has me up in arms and most other people as well. Throw in questionable flight time and scam aspects for good measure.

Kilomike and John LaHaye are right on regarding the safety and crew requirement. The right seat of a legal two-pilot airplane is a professional crew position, demanded by the FAA for safety. People should be hired because they are qualified in terms of certificates, skills and experience. The qualification for hire absolutely, positively should not be the ability to write a big check.

I have a comment about 300-hour wonders in the system. Mesa hires its MAPD grads to the right seats of its airplanes. Mesa knows exactly what it's getting. This program is similar to foreign airline ab initio pilot training programs, such as Alitalia or Lufthansa, except that the MAPD students paid to obtain their ratings, just like any other flight school. They still have to interview successfully with Mesa and complete its intial training. They may have an edge because they are familiar with the Mesa culture and are familiar to Mesa. Finally, once they go the line these MAPD-trained FOs are drawing a paycheck (much of it to be earmarked to their student loans!). Once again, not every MAPD grad gets the Mesa interview and - once again - this is not P-F-T because these students were not given a job contingent upon completing their training.

 

[Checks]

As far as I'm concerned, a zero time pilot who sits down and thinks, "What is the cheapest and fastest way to get to the right seat at a commuter..." just doesn't understand why the vast majority of us are doing this to begin with

WELL SAID AND EXACTLY RIGHT!! For the guys out there that truly enjoy flying there is no big rush to fasttrack to the majors.

 

[414Flyer]

As far as I'm concerned, a zero time pilot who sits down and thinks, "What is the cheapest and fastest way to get to the right seat at a commuter..." just doesn't understand why the vast majority of us are doing this to begin with

WELL SAID AND EXACTLY RIGHT!! For the guys out there that truly enjoy flying there is no big rush to fasttrack to the majors.

Wow..glad to hear someone else thinks like I do. Some people just dont understand it when I tell them I am not in a race to get to the airlines. I got into flying because I enjoy it, not to be an airline pilot. If I get to the majors great...if not, oh well. I wont be crying. And I certainly dont spend all my time dreaming/scheming about my next job.

Some people only take jobs that will make them be what the airlines want them to be in order to get hired, instead of actually doing things they might actualy enjoy. If someone really wants to be an airline pilot, well great, but dont miss the forest for the trees.

I am in certainly not in enough of a hurry to "get ahead", that I ever considered any crap "program", or flying for free, or that I would stoop to any such thing like that. I guess for some of us, there is just more to life than how fast we can upgrade, or chase down some job.

 

[hawkerjet]

Even " whores " get paid for their services.

 

[OspreyFE]

Outstanding responces!

Thanks guys for all of the responces.. It is good to see that there are people in this industry because they love to fly. It seems to me that the past 2-3 years of heavy hiring (pre sept.) had motivated people to become professional pilots for the airlines. It is also apparent that some of them were indeed trying to find ways to expedite the process. This, in my opinion, allowed PFT type programs to exist. There have many diffrent flavors for training out there but one thing is true, you can't cut corners in the flying business. I would be curious if anyone would lead a group of us into bringing these types of operations to the open public? Maybe the only way to stop it is to allow people to know more about it. Again, just some passing thoughts..

take care, fly safe.

 

[kilomike]

Passenger's Perspective #2

Osprey FE's comments about leading a movement to bring this kind of pft scheme out into general public knowledge is an idea that is long long overdue. I am willing to bet if the general public knew what was going on that these kinds of businesses would disappear.

I thought of something else last night. Imagine if I was a passenger on a Gulfstream Beech 1900? Say the F/O has 300 hours, and the captain has maybe 1700 hours. Well, guess what, a ticketed passenger (me) has more flight experience than the flight crew combined. Now I consider that a sad state of affairs. I have 2,900 hours and am still active as a general aviation pilot.

I would be uncomfortable flying on a turbine powered aircraft knowing that the crew was buying their experience and on top of it had less experience than a PASSENGER! That's why I prefer to travel on Southwest especially and any of the major airlines any day when I am buying a ticket. I like to go on a flight knowing that my crew has sufficient experience to handle anything that comes their way, especially if there is an emergency situation. I sure as hell do not want to be paying for a ticket on flight flown by someone buying experience!!!!! I believe that I'm paying the way for the crew and as a passenger I expect them to be earning a PAYCHECK as a result of my paying for a ticket.

Now, to clarify, I personally do not mind flying with a 300-hour pilot who is giving me a rental checkout and is getting paid for doing so. That instructor is gaining valuable experience and I would be glad to see that instructor eventually (after gaining some good experience as an instructor) when I am a passenger on a flight. I think flight instruction, dropping sky divers, etc. are great ways for low time pilots to gain experience. Low time pilots, PLEASE make sure you are earning a paycheck--that student or skydiver is paying you so you can get PAID!!!

This is an excellent forum and a great way to keep up with the aviation industry. It's appalling to know that this kind of thing is still going on.

Fly safe!! and don't forget to enjoy the journey along the way.

kilomike

 

[Bluestreak]

From Climbto350.com

Well,looky here-I guess they also donated everything to Ford and GEICO.Next time I see them,they'll get the one finger salute:
 
March 14, 2002
SKYTYPERS (Part Time Sky Typer Pilots - Florida)
South Florida (FXE)
Tel: no calls
Fax: (561) 738-6623
Email: [email protected]
Web Site: none
SkyTypers does high-tech aerial advertising using five aircraft (Grumman Tigers) in V formation with a computer controlled smoke system to do "dot matrix" printing. We did all of the "smoke in the sky" for Ford, Heineken and GEICO at this year's Daytona 500 on 2/17. We are looking for a number of part time pilots with the following qualifications: Located in South Florida (closer to FXE the better); Commercial and instrument ratings; 750 hours PIC minimum. Formation experience desirable, but we will train to meet our requirements. THESE ARE UNPAID POSITIONS!! - we do it for fun!

Wooo-weee !! Working for FREE while they get paid FOR YOUR FREE LABOR sounds like fun to me !

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T and Work-For-Free

I like Kilomike's idea of somehow making the flying public aware of these fine P-F-T'ers in the right seats. Sounds like an article for the Wall Street Journal, anyway.

How about a wage-and-hour investigation for these outfits - and particularly for the skywriting operation? It seems to me if a company is doing business and has people doing work, they should be compensated somehow, even they're not employees but so-called independent contractors. It's against the law to work for free.

 

[de727ups]

Yeah

I understand that photopilot. I hate to admit it, but in the mid-80's, before computers and color TV (just kidding), it was very easy to....not be educated in these matters. I started flying in 1978 when I was in high school and had no one to give me, or any other way, to get good advice. Around 84 or so, I was flying Grand Canyon tours out of Boulder City. This big airline named Continental was having a pilot strike and Frank was advertising 50K a year for F/O's, on a jet, even. I was making $600 a month and, of course, always wanted to fly a big jet. I knew nothing of scabs or ALPA or any of that. I can honestly say that if I had been qualified, which I wasn't, I would have thought seriously about it. Now...perhaps I would have got a quick education by the picketers and had second thoughts...I meant no one any harm. All I can say is, Thank God I didn't go down that road. Nowadays, though, with the internet and people willing to give advice...there is no excuse for not understanding how the industry works and why pilot unions are so important. I walked a picket line in 97 and will do it again in the future. I'm pretty pro-union now and can't believe what I almost did. ALPA needs to do a better job of education. In fact, it would be nice if they came out with a statement about PFT. Also, it would be nice if they hosted a board like this where young pilots could become educated about the ways of professional piloting through the opportunity for questions and answers from pro pilots.

 

[Snakum]

"ALPA needs to do a better job of education. In fact, it would be nice if they came out with a statement about PFT. "

Ding ding ding ... no more calls please ... we have a WINNER!

Minh

 

[TurboS7]

Years ago I told myself that I would never pay for a flying job or invest in something just for the flying. I have ferried a friend's airplane for free but I had personal intrest along the way that I visited. I have done some missionary flying for free but that was expected, the same as putting money in the offering plate at church. It has been a struggle sometimes but worth it in the long run.

 

[tintube]

....... So basically my point is that not everyone that PFT's is out to screw other pilots........

Mabe not, but I wonder how he ( the former PFT guy ) would feel about PFT if he later was to get a rejection on his application, because the company he wanted to work for just started a PFT program........

 

[414Flyer]

....... So basically my point is that not everyone that PFT's is out to screw other pilots........

Mabe not, but I wonder how he ( the former PFT guy ) would feel about PFT if he later was to get a rejection on his application, because the company he wanted to work for just started a PFT program........

Well it doesnt really matter to me what the "intent" is, its the outcome that matters. PFT and paying to be a crewmember, hurts the profession regardless of the intent of the perpetrator.

I am still waiting for 402driver to defend Eagle Jets "program" but he hasnt done it yet, to my knowledge

Remember they say "well it gets ME ahead faster"

Lets look at ahead of who..Gets that person ahead of those who refuse to PFT, or are building the hours by instructing, or doing tour flights, whatever.

It kinda reminds me a of a ponzi scheme. That person, while saying it is okay and not gonna hurt anyone, has to hope that not everyone does it or everyone is screwed in the end.

 

[phutch]

EJA programs are NOT PFT.

Why do people use labels like PFT and SCAB when they don't have a clue what the terms mean?

There are two important aspects of a program that define it as PFT:
Money for training changes hands in the WRONG direction, from pilot to employer.
The position that this person is buying is taking a paying job away from a pilot.

The classic example is Gulfstream Airlines.

Now lets look at programs like Tyler, EJA, etc.

Sure, money is flowing the WRONG direction but it is not for a training program. It is to buy time in the seat. It is a time building program.

The seat time that is being bought does not take a paying job away from a pilot because the Captain and airplane are certified to fly SINGLE PILOT. A perfect example of where the line is drawn is the operation at Amflight. The Brazilia and Lear right seats are not for sale for time building because Amflight can not fly these airplanes single pilot. The rest of the seats in their fleet are for sale.

Also, if you do the math, what you are buying with these programs could be considered a bargain compared to sharing time in a general aviation airplane, Part 91, etc.

To get back to the original post, this was an advertisement targeted at companies who could possibly reduce costs by using non paid people to occupy the right seat. Why shouldn't the companies have the option of doing this and what's so horrible about it? Remember! It's not PFT.

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T

Phutch may be correct, technically, that EJI, et al, are not pure P-F-T. He said these are paid-for time-building programs. He said the aircraft in question are single-pilot. Therefore, the time "paid-for" in these programs may be questionable down the line in terms of legality. It very well may raise eyebrows at that interview you've worked for so long to get. In other words, ethics of it notwithstanding, you can be out a whole bunch of money with a bunch of questionable time in your logbook. You'll also be out the time you put in to the program which you could have used getting legitimate experience.

I'd question the scruples of these companies who would take on "free" crewmembers. I'd also question the legality them of not paying people for doing work. I doubt the local Wage & Hour board would care for this idea. We pilots should not work for free. By the same token, our employers cannot expect us to work for free.

Don't do it! If the money is burning a hole in your pocket that badly, spend it on your CFI. You can use it to work and build experience. If you have any money left over, stash it in the bank. You may need it to live on for a while.

 

[NEDude]

After reading this thread it has become clear that many people blend PFT and First Officer programs together. They are different types of programs. Both wrong in my opinion, but very different.

Gulfstream is the classic first officer program. It is offered to low time pilots as a way to circumvent experience building. These "pilots" pay for the opportunity to ride in the airplane (notice I said ride) and take the position of a required crew member and do not get paid for their services.

PFT is when you are hired by an airline, at or above their typical minimums, and must pay the costs of your initial new hire training. In the end you wind up with training that only applies at your airline and you cannot take anywhere else.

True PFT was all the rage when I first tried getting into the industry ten years ago. At that time almost every airline required PFT. You either PFTd or you sat on the ground, plain and simple. the guys who PFTd back then were NOT 300 hour wonders. Most, if not all, who were being interviewed for the regional jobs had total times three to four times the ammount that guys who were being hired at the regionals a year ago. I know of one guy didn't get an offer until he had over 3500TT. He had to PFT for DO-228 job back in 1992. That was typical back then.

While I do not like the practice, having known several guys who had to do it back in the early nineties, I cannot fault them because that was par for the course back then.

Also I would caution some of the strong statements made by some people on this board. Many of the guys who had to PFT back in the early nineties are now at the majors. When the time comes for you to be interviewed, the person sitting across from you could very well have PFTd back in the early ninties. Or your first captain on the line may have as well. There were a lot of guys who did it once upon a time.

Like I said, I do not like either of these practices. But at least once upon a time, PFT was the normal practice.

 

[phutch]

Huh?

Little Duece posted: "Any way you look at it, it's PFT"

So, no matter what it is, it's PFT? OK OLD FART, if you say so.

If you would use your brain, maybe you could educate yourself on what PFT really is. You sound either plain lazy or unable to grasp what PFT really is.

Good Luck to you too.

 

[Freight Dog]

Hey Phutch,

"PFT" is a common name for scams. Whether it's PFT or PFJ or whatever you guys are griping about... who cares. My personal meaning of PFT is PAYING FOR TRASH. The bottom line is, don't do it. Judging from what you posted about your times, get 60 more hours, and you are golden for freight jobs.

Give you an idea... Ram Air Freight is hiring guys with 1200 hours, and they pay you from day 1. Their website is www.ramairfreight.com
Flight Express, same deal - website www.flightexpress.com
I think Airnet and Ameriflight are also hiring - they also pay you from day 1. Don't try to justify scams because that's just what they are - scams. The less fools willing to do it - the better off the industry becomes.

Good luck to ya!

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T

I appreciated NEDude's comment about P-F-T ten years ago.

However, there were P-F-T programs that were aimed at low-timers ten years ago. ASA had some deal going with FSI in which you would "interview," get a conditional offer of "employment," and fork up the dough. Of course, there was the good old non-refundable deposit. Then you take the training, hope you don't wash out and be out the money, and go to work. FSI's ads for this program ran rampant in pilot magazines during those days.

Air Midwest had a similar program before Mesa bought it. I remember reading about it in some pilot magazine. The article was about a stockbroker or something who wanted the career. He signed up for the program and, of course, paid. I recall that he completed it, but Air Midwest had no jobs waiting. P-F-T limbo. Eventually, he was hired.

I could have done it, but couldn't stomach the notion. Read some of my other posts about me trying to get hired. I like looking at myself in the mirror every morning. No job is worth paying for in my .02 opinion. Not to mention the underlying contempt that your EMPLOYER will have for you by doing so.

 

[flydog]

I just noticed that this is the only PFT thread I havent posted to yet

WHHHHOOOOOOOOOOORRRES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please go about your business now

 

[Snakum]

Well said my articulate friend.

Minh

BTW ... where did you get SU-29 time?

 

[I.P. Freley]

Astonishing...

...How nasty some of you people are towards pilots that had the bad luck to be heading off to the regionals for much of the 90's... I know several people who had to pay for their training, usu. around 10 large, but they ended up in the right seat of an airliner, drawing a salary.

Exactly how many hours of flight instructing were these people supposed to suffer through before they had the thousands of hours of time to get on with non-PFT regionals in the mid-90's? How many dangerous, FAR-busting check-flying operators were they supposed to risk their ticket (and lives) at before they catalogued 3000 hours or more?

What is WRONG with you people? Those people unfortunate enough to have had to pay for their first 121 or 135 job are no worse than the rest of you, and having flown with more than one of these pilots, I dare say they are often BETTER than the people of similar time who didn't "whore" themselves and built their time in 7-cylinder Senecas.

Be careful who you call a "whore." That person may be your next check airman.

 

[Mallard]

Are we supposed to feel sorry now? Maybe some violin music would help.

 

[I.P. Freley]

Yeah, actually, you should. Just because someone else didn't have it as easy as you doesn't mean you have the right to look down on them. I am extremely glad that I didn't have to pay a cent for flying after I started teaching, but that sure as hell doesn't mean I think I am "better" than they are, nor is the experience they have accrued as a result of their PFT job any less valid or worthwhile.

In fact, most PFT airline pilots, having been hired primarily in the 90's, have more experience and are now better paid and have more seniority than YOU do, Mallard. I'd rather fly with one of those PFT types than someone of your ilk, since you have no empathy whatsoever for your fellow pilots and the hardships they have faced. At least they are likely to have some humility, not to mention some respect for how difficult this industry can be, and absolutely none of the above is in evidence from your posts. Newsflash, Mallard, there is no way in hell you would be in your ERJ or any other regional job 5-10 years ago with your whopping 1700hrs of experience (and it's equally obvious that you didn't have 1700hrs when you got hired, what WAS it, 1200? 1300?). I bet you ran as fast as you could from flight instructing... But I guess you would have been TOO GOOD to have plopped down 10 grand to get out of it, right? I knew people that had to instruct and fly charter for FIVE YEARS before they got a regional job. Think about it.

You seem to think you are better than they are because they paid to get their foot in the door... I have a hell of a lot more respect for them and their dedication to their flying career than I have for you or anyone else that has the temerity to criticize them for their choice. Basically, your attitude is sickening. In some sense we are all in this together, be it at a major, regional, corporate, CFI, etc. To be judgmental of PFT pilots is just plain ignorant.

Try walking a mile in their moccasins before you spout off about how great you are compared to them.

 

[414Flyer]

I for one, dont hold it against someone that paid for company training, when it was standard practice at a commuter. They were not trying to cheat the system, or jump ahead over others.
in those cases, I think less of the companies that made it that way. Unforunately in some of those times, there was not any alternative for an aspiring airline pilot.

The ones i have problems with, and this is just me I am speaking for, are the ones that pay to be a required crewmember, and pay for a made up position (402, etc, SIC), and those that offer to fly for free, or less than what a job currently pays, to get that job. In these cases, there are more honorable alternatives, but its about ME ME ME , and getting ahead right now, and racing to that airline seat.

Part of the reason unions exist, not that I am a big union fan, is to protect against other less scrupulous pilots. Some can scream about evil management, and innocent helpless pilots all they want, but face it. They are some pilots who in their zeal for hours, experience, will become whores, and undercut everyone else. And thats a big reason for pilot unions.

Someone was telling me recently, when i was asking what ALPA had done for the regionals (this person is quite the alpa cheerleader), that if it wasnt for ALPA, commuters would probably pay half what they did not. If pilots would actually accept pay that low, pilots are the dumb ones, not management.

 

[Mallard]

I.P. Freeley...


You seem to know a lot about what I've been through in life just from the fact I have 1700 hours and flew an RJ. I am **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** lucky I to be where I am. However, my situation is irrelevant to the topic.

PFT is self-defeating for the entire profession. As long as there are people willing to pay for training, how will our profession improve? You can spare me your "paying your dues" rant.

Paying money does not equate to paying your dues.

 

[I.P. Freley]

No, your situation is ABSOLUTELY relevant to the topic. Great to see you had such a hard time with your 1700hrs, you are well on the way to realizing that this flying thing isn't easy, no matter how the hours are accrued.

I have to laugh when you say "you paid your dues" and someone else who paid for their training at their airline job DIDN'T, yet you go off on a predictable rant that I don't know your situation... Yet you obviously know quite a bit about PFT people. This is what the thinking person would call being "two-faced." Since they paid to get into an airline, there's no way they could have had "paid their dues" to the same extent YOU did, right? Amazing. I sure do wish I shared your omniscience, then I would know exactly how easy all those PFT pilots had it compared to you.

I'm guessing it didn't occur to you that some of those PFT pilots had twice the time you have NOW before they gave up and paid their way into an airline? Sounds like twice the dues that you paid, doesn't it? You can't possibly have so little grasp of very recent history and not realize that the dues YOU paid are not the dues you would have had to have paid ten years ago to get that same job. I repeat... YOU WOULDN'T HAVE HAD THE JOB YOU HAVE NOW WITH THE HOURS YOU HAVE NOW. The "dues" even five years ago compared to now have almost nothing in common.

Please, for future reference, post for us exactly what dues need to be paid by pilots before they can be considered to be worthy of an airline job. I really am curious. I mean, I had more time than you have NOW before I got my first airline job, does that mean that YOU didn't pay your dues??

I suppose you also think that people furloughed after 9/11 who are STILL on furlough and accept a lesser-paying job than the one they had before, just so they can continue to fly and feed their families, they're ALSO "scabs" or "whores", right? Wouldn't surprise me in the least if you thought so... Unless, of course, you are or have been furloughed yourself, in which case I am sure you quite understanding of people in that situation. Which, I hesitate to add, really is my point... You don't know what it was like for these people, you didn't live their lives, and just like you insinuate about me towards YOU, you have no right to judge them on the basis of what you perceive to be the truth.

 

[flydog]

I suppose you also think that people furloughed after 9/11 who are STILL on furlough and accept a lesser-paying job than the one they had before, just so they can continue to fly and feed their families, they're ALSO "scabs" or "whores", right?

Hey I.P.

Totally wrong. Actually the people that are now buying jobs are making it impossible for many furloughed pilots with much better qualifications to find work in aviation because these PFT whores are taking away their jobs