Free First Officers!

[phutch]

EJA programs are NOT PFT.

Why do people use labels like PFT and SCAB when they don't have a clue what the terms mean?

There are two important aspects of a program that define it as PFT:
Money for training changes hands in the WRONG direction, from pilot to employer.
The position that this person is buying is taking a paying job away from a pilot.

The classic example is Gulfstream Airlines.

Now lets look at programs like Tyler, EJA, etc.

Sure, money is flowing the WRONG direction but it is not for a training program. It is to buy time in the seat. It is a time building program.

The seat time that is being bought does not take a paying job away from a pilot because the Captain and airplane are certified to fly SINGLE PILOT. A perfect example of where the line is drawn is the operation at Amflight. The Brazilia and Lear right seats are not for sale for time building because Amflight can not fly these airplanes single pilot. The rest of the seats in their fleet are for sale.

Also, if you do the math, what you are buying with these programs could be considered a bargain compared to sharing time in a general aviation airplane, Part 91, etc.

To get back to the original post, this was an advertisement targeted at companies who could possibly reduce costs by using non paid people to occupy the right seat. Why shouldn't the companies have the option of doing this and what's so horrible about it? Remember! It's not PFT.

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T

Phutch may be correct, technically, that EJI, et al, are not pure P-F-T. He said these are paid-for time-building programs. He said the aircraft in question are single-pilot. Therefore, the time "paid-for" in these programs may be questionable down the line in terms of legality. It very well may raise eyebrows at that interview you've worked for so long to get. In other words, ethics of it notwithstanding, you can be out a whole bunch of money with a bunch of questionable time in your logbook. You'll also be out the time you put in to the program which you could have used getting legitimate experience.

I'd question the scruples of these companies who would take on "free" crewmembers. I'd also question the legality them of not paying people for doing work. I doubt the local Wage & Hour board would care for this idea. We pilots should not work for free. By the same token, our employers cannot expect us to work for free.

Don't do it! If the money is burning a hole in your pocket that badly, spend it on your CFI. You can use it to work and build experience. If you have any money left over, stash it in the bank. You may need it to live on for a while.

 

[NEDude]

After reading this thread it has become clear that many people blend PFT and First Officer programs together. They are different types of programs. Both wrong in my opinion, but very different.

Gulfstream is the classic first officer program. It is offered to low time pilots as a way to circumvent experience building. These "pilots" pay for the opportunity to ride in the airplane (notice I said ride) and take the position of a required crew member and do not get paid for their services.

PFT is when you are hired by an airline, at or above their typical minimums, and must pay the costs of your initial new hire training. In the end you wind up with training that only applies at your airline and you cannot take anywhere else.

True PFT was all the rage when I first tried getting into the industry ten years ago. At that time almost every airline required PFT. You either PFTd or you sat on the ground, plain and simple. the guys who PFTd back then were NOT 300 hour wonders. Most, if not all, who were being interviewed for the regional jobs had total times three to four times the ammount that guys who were being hired at the regionals a year ago. I know of one guy didn't get an offer until he had over 3500TT. He had to PFT for DO-228 job back in 1992. That was typical back then.

While I do not like the practice, having known several guys who had to do it back in the early nineties, I cannot fault them because that was par for the course back then.

Also I would caution some of the strong statements made by some people on this board. Many of the guys who had to PFT back in the early nineties are now at the majors. When the time comes for you to be interviewed, the person sitting across from you could very well have PFTd back in the early ninties. Or your first captain on the line may have as well. There were a lot of guys who did it once upon a time.

Like I said, I do not like either of these practices. But at least once upon a time, PFT was the normal practice.

 

[phutch]

Huh?

Little Duece posted: "Any way you look at it, it's PFT"

So, no matter what it is, it's PFT? OK OLD FART, if you say so.

If you would use your brain, maybe you could educate yourself on what PFT really is. You sound either plain lazy or unable to grasp what PFT really is.

Good Luck to you too.

 

[Freight Dog]

Hey Phutch,

"PFT" is a common name for scams. Whether it's PFT or PFJ or whatever you guys are griping about... who cares. My personal meaning of PFT is PAYING FOR TRASH. The bottom line is, don't do it. Judging from what you posted about your times, get 60 more hours, and you are golden for freight jobs.

Give you an idea... Ram Air Freight is hiring guys with 1200 hours, and they pay you from day 1. Their website is www.ramairfreight.com
Flight Express, same deal - website www.flightexpress.com
I think Airnet and Ameriflight are also hiring - they also pay you from day 1. Don't try to justify scams because that's just what they are - scams. The less fools willing to do it - the better off the industry becomes.

Good luck to ya!

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T

I appreciated NEDude's comment about P-F-T ten years ago.

However, there were P-F-T programs that were aimed at low-timers ten years ago. ASA had some deal going with FSI in which you would "interview," get a conditional offer of "employment," and fork up the dough. Of course, there was the good old non-refundable deposit. Then you take the training, hope you don't wash out and be out the money, and go to work. FSI's ads for this program ran rampant in pilot magazines during those days.

Air Midwest had a similar program before Mesa bought it. I remember reading about it in some pilot magazine. The article was about a stockbroker or something who wanted the career. He signed up for the program and, of course, paid. I recall that he completed it, but Air Midwest had no jobs waiting. P-F-T limbo. Eventually, he was hired.

I could have done it, but couldn't stomach the notion. Read some of my other posts about me trying to get hired. I like looking at myself in the mirror every morning. No job is worth paying for in my .02 opinion. Not to mention the underlying contempt that your EMPLOYER will have for you by doing so.

 

[flydog]

I just noticed that this is the only PFT thread I havent posted to yet

WHHHHOOOOOOOOOOORRRES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please go about your business now

 

[Snakum]

Well said my articulate friend.

Minh

BTW ... where did you get SU-29 time?

 

[I.P. Freley]

Astonishing...

...How nasty some of you people are towards pilots that had the bad luck to be heading off to the regionals for much of the 90's... I know several people who had to pay for their training, usu. around 10 large, but they ended up in the right seat of an airliner, drawing a salary.

Exactly how many hours of flight instructing were these people supposed to suffer through before they had the thousands of hours of time to get on with non-PFT regionals in the mid-90's? How many dangerous, FAR-busting check-flying operators were they supposed to risk their ticket (and lives) at before they catalogued 3000 hours or more?

What is WRONG with you people? Those people unfortunate enough to have had to pay for their first 121 or 135 job are no worse than the rest of you, and having flown with more than one of these pilots, I dare say they are often BETTER than the people of similar time who didn't "whore" themselves and built their time in 7-cylinder Senecas.

Be careful who you call a "whore." That person may be your next check airman.

 

[Mallard]

Are we supposed to feel sorry now? Maybe some violin music would help.

 

[I.P. Freley]

Yeah, actually, you should. Just because someone else didn't have it as easy as you doesn't mean you have the right to look down on them. I am extremely glad that I didn't have to pay a cent for flying after I started teaching, but that sure as hell doesn't mean I think I am "better" than they are, nor is the experience they have accrued as a result of their PFT job any less valid or worthwhile.

In fact, most PFT airline pilots, having been hired primarily in the 90's, have more experience and are now better paid and have more seniority than YOU do, Mallard. I'd rather fly with one of those PFT types than someone of your ilk, since you have no empathy whatsoever for your fellow pilots and the hardships they have faced. At least they are likely to have some humility, not to mention some respect for how difficult this industry can be, and absolutely none of the above is in evidence from your posts. Newsflash, Mallard, there is no way in hell you would be in your ERJ or any other regional job 5-10 years ago with your whopping 1700hrs of experience (and it's equally obvious that you didn't have 1700hrs when you got hired, what WAS it, 1200? 1300?). I bet you ran as fast as you could from flight instructing... But I guess you would have been TOO GOOD to have plopped down 10 grand to get out of it, right? I knew people that had to instruct and fly charter for FIVE YEARS before they got a regional job. Think about it.

You seem to think you are better than they are because they paid to get their foot in the door... I have a hell of a lot more respect for them and their dedication to their flying career than I have for you or anyone else that has the temerity to criticize them for their choice. Basically, your attitude is sickening. In some sense we are all in this together, be it at a major, regional, corporate, CFI, etc. To be judgmental of PFT pilots is just plain ignorant.

Try walking a mile in their moccasins before you spout off about how great you are compared to them.

 

[414Flyer]

I for one, dont hold it against someone that paid for company training, when it was standard practice at a commuter. They were not trying to cheat the system, or jump ahead over others.
in those cases, I think less of the companies that made it that way. Unforunately in some of those times, there was not any alternative for an aspiring airline pilot.

The ones i have problems with, and this is just me I am speaking for, are the ones that pay to be a required crewmember, and pay for a made up position (402, etc, SIC), and those that offer to fly for free, or less than what a job currently pays, to get that job. In these cases, there are more honorable alternatives, but its about ME ME ME , and getting ahead right now, and racing to that airline seat.

Part of the reason unions exist, not that I am a big union fan, is to protect against other less scrupulous pilots. Some can scream about evil management, and innocent helpless pilots all they want, but face it. They are some pilots who in their zeal for hours, experience, will become whores, and undercut everyone else. And thats a big reason for pilot unions.

Someone was telling me recently, when i was asking what ALPA had done for the regionals (this person is quite the alpa cheerleader), that if it wasnt for ALPA, commuters would probably pay half what they did not. If pilots would actually accept pay that low, pilots are the dumb ones, not management.

 

[Mallard]

I.P. Freeley...


You seem to know a lot about what I've been through in life just from the fact I have 1700 hours and flew an RJ. I am **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** lucky I to be where I am. However, my situation is irrelevant to the topic.

PFT is self-defeating for the entire profession. As long as there are people willing to pay for training, how will our profession improve? You can spare me your "paying your dues" rant.

Paying money does not equate to paying your dues.

 

[I.P. Freley]

No, your situation is ABSOLUTELY relevant to the topic. Great to see you had such a hard time with your 1700hrs, you are well on the way to realizing that this flying thing isn't easy, no matter how the hours are accrued.

I have to laugh when you say "you paid your dues" and someone else who paid for their training at their airline job DIDN'T, yet you go off on a predictable rant that I don't know your situation... Yet you obviously know quite a bit about PFT people. This is what the thinking person would call being "two-faced." Since they paid to get into an airline, there's no way they could have had "paid their dues" to the same extent YOU did, right? Amazing. I sure do wish I shared your omniscience, then I would know exactly how easy all those PFT pilots had it compared to you.

I'm guessing it didn't occur to you that some of those PFT pilots had twice the time you have NOW before they gave up and paid their way into an airline? Sounds like twice the dues that you paid, doesn't it? You can't possibly have so little grasp of very recent history and not realize that the dues YOU paid are not the dues you would have had to have paid ten years ago to get that same job. I repeat... YOU WOULDN'T HAVE HAD THE JOB YOU HAVE NOW WITH THE HOURS YOU HAVE NOW. The "dues" even five years ago compared to now have almost nothing in common.

Please, for future reference, post for us exactly what dues need to be paid by pilots before they can be considered to be worthy of an airline job. I really am curious. I mean, I had more time than you have NOW before I got my first airline job, does that mean that YOU didn't pay your dues??

I suppose you also think that people furloughed after 9/11 who are STILL on furlough and accept a lesser-paying job than the one they had before, just so they can continue to fly and feed their families, they're ALSO "scabs" or "whores", right? Wouldn't surprise me in the least if you thought so... Unless, of course, you are or have been furloughed yourself, in which case I am sure you quite understanding of people in that situation. Which, I hesitate to add, really is my point... You don't know what it was like for these people, you didn't live their lives, and just like you insinuate about me towards YOU, you have no right to judge them on the basis of what you perceive to be the truth.

 

[flydog]

I suppose you also think that people furloughed after 9/11 who are STILL on furlough and accept a lesser-paying job than the one they had before, just so they can continue to fly and feed their families, they're ALSO "scabs" or "whores", right?

Hey I.P.

Totally wrong. Actually the people that are now buying jobs are making it impossible for many furloughed pilots with much better qualifications to find work in aviation because these PFT whores are taking away their jobs