Free First Officers!

[AV8OR]

Oh, by the way. One other point. Back in 93 when ASA was charging 10K for right seat on a Brasilia at 15K a year, ASA flight attendants were paid almost as much the first year as a new co-pilot........and they DID NOT pay for their training.

Also, I'm not by any means saying that if you PFT you won't go on to an illustrious job at a Major. The fact is, unfortunately, it probably will never be an issue for you in either getting the interview or getting the job. I really did think it would end up limiting hiring potential of those that PFT'd but I have seen absolutly NO consequences. So.... hep ya seff to big O bowl of it.

Just a little side note, and my last one in this saga.

 

[Skaz]

KATL8R26L who is this company?

Timebuilder, mate you are a very good example of why I would go for PFT....you have 1000hours LESS than I, and you are in the position I would like right now. I do EMS type ops in C402/401 and C208...I wanna move up to EMS ops in jets. THat would mean Learjets....so how do I get on with a company?

Do a rating and pay for 100 or 250 hours on a Lear....otherwise I dont make the requirements for most Corporate or EMS operators.

If I do get an oportunity to get on with a company without having to go the PFT route to make the req, of course I'll grab the chance. IF not, I'll go the PFT route.

Little Duece I have to comment on your post, in a situation like that, with 300hour fresh CPL, thats not cool. There should be a minimum of hours req for PFT on big jets like 73 etc. at 300hours they do not have the skills knowledge or experience to safely act as flight crew on part121 or any other ops.

 

[A Squared]

Skaz,

I understood perfectly and completely what you were trying to say, right down to the last word. All you're doing is adding a lot of extraneous details to divert attention away from the central issue.

Here's the central issue; You beleive that it's wrong for a "time builder" to fly for your company for free, but you think that it's just hunky-dory for *you* to fly for free (pay even) at company Y.

Let's go through that one more time as you seem to be confused.

Your company needs pilots, and you don't like it when pilots offer to fly for free.

Company Y needs pilots, but you can't see any problem if you fly for free or pay company Y.

That's it, stripped of all the irrelevant details. All this blather about How you arrived at the doorstep of Company Y through Company X, or that you're going to go to Company Z after Company Z is just an attempt to confuse the issue. Presumably the "free" pilots at your company will go on to some other "company Z" after gaining a certain number of hours too, how does that change the basic issue? Did you forget already what the basic issue is? Short attention span? easily confused? Let me refresh your memory:

You think that it sucks when someone offers to do your job for free, yet you think it's ok for you to *pay* to do someone elses job.



Note: Normally I try to stay out of these "Pay for training", or "pay for a job" threads, but I was drawn in against my better judgement by Skaz's sheer hypocricy. Seldom do you see someone state in the very same post that it is bad for somone to do *his* job for free but it's good for him to do someone elses job for free. It is truly amazing how irrational and convoluted the thinking can get when someone is trying to rationalize something that he wants to do but knows is wrong by his own value system. Thank you Skaz for a fascinating look into the dark side of human nature.

regards

 

[Timebuilder]

Mrs_Boeing wrote...

We all wanted this so badly from jump street that had we been financially able to PFT we'd have done so. All of us. Period. Don't say "Not me!", yes YOU!!!!

Speak for yourself, Mrs. B.

I had the money for the greatest portion of my lifetime. I had it in the early nineties. I received good counsel from many high time captains, the gentlemen of the kind that every kid looks up to, and PFT was clearly not the right choice in their experienced opinions. If a 767 job is your personal holy grail in life, you need redemption, not a PFT program.

And as for the companies that require PFT, it's just smart financially. They are in business to make money, not supply you with a job just because you paid alot of money to learn to fly and now feel you are owed a position.

What an interesting perspective. To follow your logic to its inevitable conclusion, we should all be working for free beacuse there are so many of us that want a flying job, and there are doubtless enough low time pilots with money to pilot most of the jets in America. While it may be "financially smart" for some slimeball operator to offer a PFT program instead of stepping up to the plate and operating a business according to accepted standards (if you don't know what accepted standards are, contact your local Rotary Club), is is up to the prospective employee to be properly informed of the negative impact of PFT on the aviation business as a whole, and on himself as an individual. That's why we are sharing these opinions here. You can call it "whining" if you like. Be amused.

As long as there are people with the means and the will to pay for training, it will happen. Supply and demand. Simple isn't it? If the supply of pilots went south like in the early 60s PFT would go away for a while. Then it'd come back as the market was again flooded with pilots. The owners of these companies, and the pilots who work for them, are not out to get you personally. They are just trying to make a living.

These are all good reasons to spread the word to avoid PFT like you avoid AIDS. If pilots won't do PFT, it WILL go away. If pilots are all as jelly-spined as you suggest, it will remain with us, albeit in smaller numbers because people have been INFORMED. Knowlege is power.

The views here generally do not reflect the attitude of the majority of PROFESSIONAL pilots who actually fly for a living thank God. Just a vocal minority of immature, needle-dicked, egotistical whackoffs (Sorta like WO school). Please grow the hell up.

Ma'am, I've known pilots since 1956, when I was four. I have yet to meet, in person, in the ensuing 47 years, a professional aviator who agrees with the position you have advocated here.

I think that your list of attributes (a vocal minority of immature, needle-dicked, egotistical whackoffs) is a more appropriate description of a person who would speak this way on a public message board. Did they teach you to talk this way in warrant officer school? I doubt it.

Certainly you are free to hold to your opinion, however misguided it may be. A number of young aviators are learning here. I think they learned something from you today, too.

Skaz...

THat would mean Learjets....so how do I get on with a company?

You continue to hone your skills, and make personal contacts, i.e.: networking. You pay attention here, watching for openings, and you present yourself to others as a clean, intelligent person with moral values and self discipline. In my case, the training period lasted a handful of days, and I didn't pay a dime for it. From my first flight as a required crewmwmber, I was paid the same rate as any other FO at the company. My first raise will be my upgrade, probably before Christmas. Remember, luck is preparation meeting opportunity.

Do a rating and pay for 100 or 250 hours on a Lear....otherwise I dont make the requirements for most Corporate or EMS operators.

If you find an operator that only wants 100 hours in type, that's good. As discussed above, getting your own type rating is not PFT, in that it is not company specific. You could take your Lear type to any operator that will hire you at a low wage. If, however, you have to pay someone for the privilege of performing the work of a required crewmember, that sure is PFT. Remember, if operators can't get pilots to play along, then they will be forced to train them on their dime.

Good luck with your search. Your personal honor is valuable. Protect it.

 

[AV8OR]

OK Ms. B, ya got me....

"Supply and demand. Simple isn't it? If the supply of pilots went south like in the early 60s PFT would go away for a while. Then it'd come back as the market was again flooded with pilots. The owners of these companies, and the pilots who work for them, are not out to get you personally. They are just trying to make a living."


So are the companies in Thailand using 7 year olds to sew Nikes and work child brothels. Doesn't make right. Guess everybody has to decide what their integrity is worth.

 

[Airpiraterob]

Cant believe im doing this ...but...

This ring of fire is burning. im about to put my foot right in it i suppose. what am i doing.....wheres a benifactor when i need one.

DO YOU WANT TO TAKE THIS THING FAR?
HOW FAR DO YOU WANT TO GO?
----American Civil Liberties Union-----

sounds like financial discrimination to me. i'm gonna find out what i can. i really think theres something in this that can be solved.

What would keep them from getting in legal trouble is hiring people that meet certin hour requirements. and then for those that dont, make them pay for the job training. thats what CoEx used to do....i think it was CoEx....

I understand some things in life arent fair. i understand that some people have alot of money to spend-some do not have any to spend. thats life. thats fact. When those that have money are able to keep the poor from working, making sure the only that can generate an income are those that dont really need one. then thats an evil problem dripping with an acidic flavor. Even if you take out a loan for PFT, youre still keeping out the people that CANT GET THE LOAN cause they already have an outstanding balance from their origional primary training. thats a job that i cant apply for cause i cant afford the 'buy-in' fee. a gamble.

all you have to do is PROVE that they hired someone FOR A JOB instead of you, based on the singular and only fact that the someone had money. and you didn't. then you would have an absolute law case against them.

common defense?...he/she is buying flight training, not a job....so how do you get around it? thats up to the lawyers and legal people to decide. but think about training and revenue flights and passengers and whats legal and not...hmmm

what would Eagle jet would say to this? my guess is: "that's just life pal"

 

[Skaz]

Timebuilder "If you find an operator that only wants 100 hours in type, that's good. As discussed above, getting your own type rating is not PFT, in that it is not company specific. You could take your Lear type to any operator that will hire you at a low wage. If, however, you have to pay someone for the privilege of performing the work of a required crewmember, that sure is PFT. Remember, if operators can't get pilots to play along, then they will be forced to train them on their dime."

Ok, right, so if I goto Flightsafety and get a Lear rating, its ok. But if I take it a bit further and pay for some hours on type...its not.


A Squared y'know, I really am trying to have an mature discussion with you, as professionals, re this topic. Unfortunately you seem to respond to calm direct questions and statements with aggression and insults. I do hope, for your own sake and that of your crew and pax, that this is not a reflection of your attitude in the a/c.

You might have read my post, but you surely do not understand it. If 'company Y' as we have referred to it, have PERMANENT positions for CAPTAINS, and no PERMANENT f/o positions then utilise f/o's that are doing the hourbuilding courses...then whose job is there to be taken??????????????NOBODY'S
There are, in a situation like this, NO F/O POSITIONS FOR PERMANENT CREW. Do you get it now?

If the company has BOTH captains and f/o PERMANENT positions and then takes either F/O or CAPTAINS that pay to fly for that company or flies for FREE, and in doing so puts the guys employed there already out on the street, THATS WRONG.

Believe it or not, there is a difference in the above two examples.

Timebuilder oh yeah, another thing, the only reason I am even considering the evil PFT thing, is 'cause I am 30yo. In 5 years I need to have a permanent position with a company in order to get full pension. I am not married yet, so no family, but that will happen , then such financial considerations are important. If I was still 20 or so...no problem.

 

[JOHN LA HAYE]

SCAB WHORES

What is it that I am missing? We all pay for our ratings in one way or another. We earn our total time and become qualified for positions that pay. I believe that is what makes PROFESSIONAL pilots. Then we have the duche bag operators who lie cheat and steal from pax and employees, then to top it off they "hire" unqualified "pilots" to sit in the right seat without pay.

We are living in a world of fear and uncertainty where passengers are worried about flying, yet the operators still feel the greed/need to utilize non-pilots for required crewmember positions.

It seems to me, that the only people who don't quite get it are the young fools who think they deserve a right seat with 250 hours and the operators who make out by not having to pay for a real grown up that has a clue.

If my opinion seems harsh, grow a spine, the world is hash and at times down right mean. Deal with it.

 

[Skaz]

JOHN LA HAYE

It seems to me, that the only people who don't quite get it are the young fools who think they deserve a right seat with 250 hours and the operators who make out by not having to pay for a real grown up that has a clue.

couldnt agree with you more

 

[Freight Dog]

B190 Cap... no I won't shoot the messenger. Don't worry.

However, here are some things that you could do as a pilot group:

As a pilot group, you could seek to end that practice. However, knowing you have a scab management, it will be a difficult fight. IMO, it may be worthwhile. After all, you are flying paying passengers and having an FO on those flights is not optional like it is at Ameriflight for example. Therefore, that seat should not be used as a rental. That's my problem with Gulfstream.

PFT is a nasty snake. If people would stop doing it, it would naturally go away. However, you can't compare SWA requirement for having a 737 type rating with the scam that Gulfstream or EJI puts up:

1) You could have flown for Casino Express and made captain. Now you are typed, got paid for it, and off you go. You could have flown T-43 in the military, and gotten typed. You also could have worked for Vanguard and gotten typed, or even Frontier and gone over to SWA. My point is, having a type rating requirement does not amount to PFT. You could have done it the ol' fashioned way and worked at smaller airlines like those mentioned above, or you could fork out the dough and buy it. Your choice.

2) Gulfstream on the other hand doesn't care whether you are an experienced 1900 pilot or not. You gotta fork out your 20k, and that's that. You have no choice if you want to work for them. That is my problem with it.

You see, I'm a 737 FO, however, I'm not typed. When I upgrade in a few years, if I wanted to apply to SWA, I could and I will have gotten paid for my type. While SWA is a great airline and a great place to work, it wouldn't make any sense for me to leave my airline for SWA as IMO we have a much sweeter deal here. However, pilots at smaller 737 operators may gladly jump ship to SWA if SWA is a step-up for them.

Goes to show you... you can't compare PFT requirement at Gulfstream vs. SWA's requirement for type-rated FO's.

 

[A Squared]

>>>>>You might have read my post, but you surely do not understand it.

Yes, I understand it completely and thouroughly, I have a full understanding of the rationalization you are attempting.

>>>>>>>>If 'company Y' as we have referred to it, have PERMANENT positions for CAPTAINS, and no PERMANENT f/o positions then utilise f/o's that are doing the hourbuilding courses...then whose job is there to be taken??????????????NOBODY'S There are, in a situation like this, NO F/O POSITIONS FOR PERMANENT CREW. Do you get it now?

I have "got it" right from the start. If Company Y has 5 1900's and 10 crews, that's 10 FO positions which you and your ilk are making unavailable by agreeing to pay to sit in those seats.



>>>Believe it or not, there is a difference in the above two examples.

No, really there isn't. By agreeing to fly for free, you make a paying job disappear, it is really irrelevant whether it was previously held by a paid pilot or an paying pilot.

regards

 

[100LL... Again!]

Too many pilots. Maybe the FAA could raise the 121 FO minimum to1500 hrs. That would go a loooong way to fixin' this.

 

[Timebuilder]

Ok, right, so if I goto Flightsafety and get a Lear rating, its ok. But if I take it a bit further and pay for some hours on type...its not.

Close.

If you want to go out and pay $1500 to $1800 per hour to get some Lear experience with an instructor/captain, more power to you. The PFT part comes in when you are used as a required crewmember, carrying passengers or cargo for hire. In this situation, you are buying the right seat, instead of being paid to do a job in that seat.

There's the rub.

And you can save a bunch of money by doing an initial type at Simcom.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

The PFT situation ebbs and flows with the job market. I was offered a PFT situation about 10 years ago and didn't do it, for a variety of reasons. I believe that, basically, EVERYONE is PFT. If you pay for your PPL, Comm, Inst, you are paying for training. If you go Military, you are paying with years of your life, and many less flying hours per year than many civilian pilots.

To put this in some perspective, this same situation occurs in many other industries (for example, isn't college PFT?).

The one I am most familiar with now is the software/internet/dotcom worker situation in CA.

There are a lot of job offers posted that list qualification after qualification, and years of experience. What's the pay? You are an INTERN! That means, you work 40+ hours/week at NO PAY!

People are jumping at these opportunities, because they have been unemployed for so long. These jobs give them steady employment and the chance to update their skills, which gives them more chances to get the real jobs when they pop up.

There are some websites up which post these ridiculous requirements for a job with no pay. The unemployed software people rip them apart and have fun bitching about the crappy situati0n they're in.

In a lot of ways, it sounds just like flying PFT.

If you're in the situation (in whatever industry) where you may have to PFT to get by, God Bless You, and I hope you can get a paying job soon.

Cliff
GRB

(PS-To get K-12 teaching certification, you need to work full time for one semseter, after you've paid to take a ton of (mostly) worthless classes. The pay for a student teacher? You pay your certifying university for a FULL TIME class load! PFT if I've ever heard of it!!!)

 

[Timebuilder]

I believe that, basically, EVERYONE is PFT. If you pay for your PPL, Comm, Inst, you are paying for training. If you go Military, you are paying with years of your life, and many less flying hours per year than many civilian pilots.

The basic certs are the equivalent of either a high school or college diploma, depending on the type of non-avaition job you are using for comparison. Other training, seminars, etc, are the province of the company for whom you work. When I was a mechanic, my company paid for all of my training and professional certifications, including all 33 ASE certs.

There are a lot of job offers posted that list qualification after qualification, and years of experience. What's the pay? You are an INTERN! That means, you work 40+ hours/week at NO PAY!

I think those jobs are being posted because there aren't enough fools available in the IT industry. Just my opinion.

(PS-To get K-12 teaching certification, you need to work full time for one semseter, after you've paid to take a ton of (mostly) worthless classes. The pay for a student teacher? You pay your certifying university for a FULL TIME class load! PFT if I've ever heard of it!!!)

Sure sounds like something the NEA would agree to. Maybe the idea is to prevent the availability of too many qualified teachers, which would drive down teacher pay and reduce bargaining power.

Clearly, PFT tries to take advantage of young pilots who see this as a way to get ahead. Education can reduce this trend.

 

[JJay]

To get K-12 teaching certification, you need to work full time for one semseter, after you've paid to take a ton of (mostly) worthless classes. The pay for a student teacher? You pay your certifying university for a FULL TIME class load! PFT if I've ever heard of it!!!)

A fundamental difference between student teaching and PFT is that the student teacher does not replace a paid teacher. The student teacher works with the regular class room teacher. It's a mentoring program where the student teacher is constantly evaluated and corrected by the cooperating teacher. PFT essentially eliminates a paid position. There's a big difference.

 

[Timebuilder]

Good point, JJ.

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T

Remember how badly we all wanted to be in the left seat of a 767 at Delta with the vest and the hat and the whole can-o-worms? We all wanted this so badly from jump street that had we been financially able to PFT we'd have done so. All of us. Period. Don't say "Not me!", yes YOU!!!!

No, my friend. I will say, "not me." Read some of my other posts on this issue.

For the benefit of those who don't want to run a search of "P-F-T" and "bobbysamd," I will come to the point. Ethics, morning mirror-facing, and hosing other pilots notwithstanding, I decided that no job was worth buying. That's the bottom line. Moreover, I never had an interest in the "whole can of worms" as stated above. Left seat of a 1900 would have thrilled me to no end. And following that through to its conclusion, left seat of an RJ would have been beyond my wildest expectations.

Although I was relatively new to professional aviation, I already had a modicum of life experience. I never heard of such a thing as P-F-T. Having to pay for my job, although I was already qualified? Outrageous!!

The complainers and whiners didn't have the means to PFT and that's all it is.

Oh, I could have gotten the money. See above for the reasons why I did not. It took me about ten milliseconds to dismiss the notion.

And I'd probably have that Delta job (lay-off?) now instead of running a 20-year old Citation all over the Southeast for $45K per year.

And that is such a bad job?? I would have loved something like that, too. I believe that you are the one who is whining. Finally,

Some of you are very bitter and you really need to take a long look at yourself and take some responsibility for your choices in life.

Reread the above. I believe I have. No, sir, you are the one who is bitter.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

Response to student teacher's not taking the place of a full-time teacher.

USUALLY, the above is correct.

Sometimes, however, the student teacher DOES take the place of a full-time teacher. What some schools do (it happens frequently, but is a minority of the student-teachers), is they pay the student teacher about 1/2 of what a full-time teacher would make, and the student teacher does everything for 1 or more classes. They are supervised, but by another full-time teacher who teaches other classes.

In my area of the country, mostly small districts do this, either to save money, or the student teacher is the only one with the qualifications to take the job.

Cliff
GRB

 

[bobbysamd]

Broadcasting interns

Bobby, having been in broadcasting, knows about the "gopher" system. As a young intern-for-free, you go-for coffee, go-for cigarettes, etc. You aren't paid, but you are not performing a required function at the station. You are not paying someone so that you can say that you had a "job".

I had interns in my newsrooms. Somehow, I understood that they could operate the boards, cart machines, etc. and would be helpful and capable. I remember one was so incapable that we assigned her to retype our Rolodex contact file. The result was mostly typed gibberish.

Another one we had was helpful in our newsroom but was really more suited to jocking. She got a job jocking across town but was canned - I dunno why - typical radio. She came by the station and told me. I immediately brought her to our FM PD, who remembered her, and he hired her.

Disc jockey in New York City (read "Don Imus," "Cousin Brucie," "Dan Ingram")? Money out the yingyang. The internship in Colorado Springs that helped you get on the air: Priceless.

 

[Timebuilder]

I had a favorite intern. When she would be scheduled to come in, I would crank up the a/c. The effect on her was, ah, impressive. I was so bad...

 

[Skaz]

A Squared

I have "got it" right from the start. If Company Y has 5 1900's and 10 crews, that's 10 FO positions which you and your ilk are making unavailable by agreeing to pay to sit in those seats.

youre still a bit aggressive there mate, slow down. I am starting to see your point of view. You, and the other posters, have to understand that where I come from, there is no such thing as Eagle Jet or pft or anything. first I heard of it, was seeing Eagle's advert in a magazine, and getting info on forums like this.

But what you have to understand, is that you are not going to change the industry and the management types signing on for options like what eagle and asg provides, by calling me names.

you and your ilk

you dont know me from a bar of soap, so dont categorize me

Timebuilder

And you can save a bunch of money by doing an initial type at Simcom.

please tell me more, hows this differ from Flightsafety? Or which school or org that you know of, offers the best deal on the Lear or similar type rating ? Info appreciated.

 

[Timebuilder]

Ok.

While the Flightsafety training can only be called "first rate", their prices are equally stunning. It's like asking Elle Mac Pherson out on a date. Expect to spend a lot of money for a high visibility experience.

PanAm Academy took over Simcom, and built a new facility at Orlando, FL. Here is a link to their Lear training price page, under "business avaition". It's a PDF file.

http://www.panamacademy.com/simcom/2003 Lear 3536.pdf

Check the FSI prices, and you'll see what I mean.

 

[Skaz]

Timebuilder thaks, I actually got that info already, but cant find the Flightsafety info on the website? Is it available, or do you need to contact FS for them?

 

[Mrs_Boeing]

they do not have the skills knowledge or experience to safely act as flight crew on part121 or any other ops.

Try telling that to the former cadets at many UK airlines who are flying all over Europe at 300 TT, or the guys and girls coming out of Ft. Rucker with less than that. And don't give me the "They've been specially selected and trained" routine. If you have a CPL and CFI/II/MEI ratings you've been specially trained too. Oddly enough there are things that make a military helo easier to fly than civie (coupled rudder-collective, etc.). Let's all be honest with ourselves shall we? With the technology available today and the vastly improved airway systems there aren't many who have obtained a commercial mutli who couldn't fly your average airliner. The older Lears, Jetstars, etc are much tougher to master I feel, and there are 500-hour wonders beating these aircraft all over the US. I'm sorry but we're just not that special. Most true morons are weeded out in training or by the Grim Reaper before they hit 500 hours. Though there are exceptions. I work with one now that I think about it.

Those of you who said you wouldn't PFT even if you had the money to do so are either not being honest or you just didn't want to fly as badly as every other professional pilot I've ever known in eight years of flying. More than likely the former. But we'll never know will we. It's too late so we'll just sit back and judge those who did. That's much easier on our egos than a hard and honest look in the mirror.

Mama B.

 

[Freight Dog]

I gotta raise the B.S. flag here Mrs Boeing. Unlike quite a few people who 'sold' their souls to fly an airplane, I consider myself a professional with professional credentials offering professional service of flying an airplane. As such, if you want me to fly, you will pay me. I will not pay you for the privilege of flying an airplane unless I am renting a plane for joyriding. I am one of those who absolutely refused to PFT. I never instructed a day in my life - flew skydivers, VFR 135 tours and cargo and commuter to get to this point. I started getting paid for my flying services 2 days after my commercial checkride when I started dropping skydivers. I never paid a dime for multiengine time past my rating. I actually got paid to get multi time, and I got my first multiengine job flying checks in a Seneca with 8 hours of multi (bare rating). Was I making big $$$? Hell no, but I was getting paid something. Did I have an option of PFT? You bet. My family offered time and time again which I refused every time. Something about character and morals.

So what you may say. Well, I am walking tall and walking proud. Looking back on my career, I am very proud to say I never fell for any PFT scam, and that I contributed my share to end PFT by refusing time after time to fall for it.

My reward? Well, I just turned 27. I have a type rating in a DHC-8 from my old job. I'm a B737 FO right now for an airline I was shooting for from early on in my career and intend to retire from. I might have missed some seniority numbers by refusing to PFT. However, you can't beat the experience and the character I've built along the way, and once again, I am standing tall and walking proud - I paid my dues the right way - working my way through.

 

[Eagleflip]

Mrs. Boeing wrote:

Try telling that to the former cadets at many UK airlines who are flying all over Europe at 300 TT...

I don't agree with your conclusion, Mrs. B. OK, so are you saying that the 300 hour wonders in Europe--and here--are as safe and prepared as your average 1500 hour "CFI turned night check hauler turned frieght dog turned commuter pilot?"

You and I both know that is not the case. Even the military recognizes that 300 hour pilots need special management via flight/section leads, very involved supervision and (mostly) resrictive operating environments. Once they gain enough experience, they shed some of the above noted constraints, but not before. I've been there and seen it in action. Young pilots can be safe pilots, but they need guidance.

Would I have been safe to fly passengers in a 121 environment at 300 hours? Nope. Does that assessment parlay into a general caveat? Probably. Don't you think that the Captains in Europe who deal with these "youngsters" have a more difficult time dealing with inexperience in the cockpit? There is no substitute for experience (a profundity that should go without saying, but I said it anyway...)

I don't have a problem looking myself in the mirror; as Popeye so correctly says "I yam what I yam...," a pilot who's proud of what he's accomplished, knowing full well that there is much still left to learn.

 

[Timebuilder]

And don't give me the "They've been specially selected and trained" routine.

I see that you are already familiar with the faults of you own argument. Neither military or UK students are anywhere close to the unscreened, average self-selected PFT participant. Some military transition pilots see PFT as a way to build fixed wing experience, but just as many other former military pilots frown on PFT.

Those of you who said you wouldn't PFT even if you had the money to do so are either not being honest or you just didn't want to fly as badly as every other professional pilot I've ever known in eight years of flying

Grand assuptions on your part. Grand, but I can tell you that you are 100% wrong in my case. All of the money I have ever had is not worth demeaning myself to take the PFT route. That's a judgement. Life is full of them. The key is to learn how to make the BEST judgments possible.

I first held a flight yoke in 1961. It's not "too late" for me, either. I'm not sure what you are trying to say, if there is any intent beyond attempting to characterize naysayers such as myself in the category of "crybaby". In fact, I see widebody pay coming down, while mine is going up. So, I'm happy to provide a little guidance to the newer, younger pilots who will see this thread, and the ones like it. And you are correct in one respect. I really don't want to fly badly. I want to fly well, with my self respect intact.

Some folks don't know how good that feels.

Great post, Eagleflip.

 

[Mrs_Boeing]

My hat's off to the veritable paragons of virtue we are blessed to be in the presence of. You are to be well and truly commended. I commend you. If you really mean it - and you may - I really do admire you for it. But I'm sure you can understand gentlemen I have a very hard time believing you based on what I've personally seen and heard in the real world. You say you wouldn't, we can't prove it one way or the other, so I will take you at your word and salute you.

Now, here's why I don't buy it. I was personally told by senior UA Captain (check airman on 747) that the best way to fly professionally was to "attend one of them there schools that use you for an FO. That's excellent experience and cheaper than renting a King Air". And there's more. I have a family member who flys an MD-80 at CO and was on the interview team when CO was hiring in the late 90s. Just after I reentered the civie world he encouraged me to go to Gulfstream Acadamy or one of the ones operating back then to get the ME turbine fixed-wing time and the 121 experience. And when he was interviewing aspiring CO jocks in 1999 he mentioned he had seen guys with those schools on resumes and he thought that was "the smart play" and that I should have done it. Unfortunately he hadn't offered to pay for it or I would have. I may have been farther ahead than I am now, or I might just have a seniority number but be working at Home Depot. I don't know.

I have mentioned the PFT debates I've read about here to at least five captains at major(2) and regional(3) airlines that I've known well from former jobs or through family, and every single one felt that is the best route through the system. Without exception. And this with no prompting from me whatsoever. I didn't let them know I had any feelings about it one way or the other because I don't, I just asked.

I hate to burst your bubble but the people interviewing at the airlines don't care if you PFTd nor do they admire you for not doing it even though you had the money. That's just a fact. When I spoke further with one of the captians (AA-A300) he said "You're just hearing from a small minority of younger pilots. Believe me no one at the major or the large regionals cares where you got your time. They want to know that your competent and that they'll be able to get along with you for five days straight."

Hey, I'm just the messenger, boys. Don't flame me if your agenda doesn't reflect the reality of airline hiring. Ask the grey-beards here. I've seen a few here over the past year. Ask them if they care or not.

Mama

 

[wil]

Mama B- Your making me hot