Free First Officers!

[I.P. Freley]

You will note that I have made a pretty clear distinction between people who were PFT when it was more of the industry norm and people who are PFT NOW. There was a time in the recent past that you simply couldn't get a job without 3000hrs, often much more than that.

These people today... Well... There are jobs out there that you don't have to pay for. I don't know why anyone would have to do it these days. I know two people who have gotten airline jobs this year with no prior airline experience of any kind. I know one more who never flew for a 121 carrier (furloughed after ground school) and found ANOTHER job. There are others that I know of that have found new jobs after being furloughed from another carrier (including myself, though I was lucky enough to get a RAISE). Most of these individuals have under 1500hrs.

I really don't see why anyone in the current climate should need to buy a job. Just go teach, tow a banner, do whatever... How long does it take to make it to 1200 hours, anyway? A year? There's little excuse to go running for a PFT job today if you have 500hrs. Just be patient and get the time some other way. Even post-9/11, the jobs are there for the taking.

 

[Skaz]

PFT must burn?

Gidday all, hello from the other side of the planet.
Being a ppruner,I have never posted on this site before and was surprised at the liveliness of this thread. Came here looking for info re Eagle Jet and ASG and such ops…..what I found was something else.

Lets start this fight off on a high note. I am looking into doing a ‘course’ with Eagle or ASG or somebody similar……………..ok, boys let rip.

Before any of you winging bastards call me a whore, let me explain where I’m coming from. Then you can call me anything you want.

I am qualified FSO and am studying for Bscdegree with ERAU correspondence, have 2450TT, >700ME, >550Turbine, >400Night, >100IFR, been flying In Southern Africa., commercially for 5 years and in total since second year of high school. First job was flying an Islander at a game lodge near Kruger National Park in Mpumalanga province in RSA, then got a job flying C06 in Okavango Delta in Botswana, after more than one year of C206 poling, got promoted to C210, then few months later onto company’s BN2…few years of that and moved to Namibia, flying C210, C310, C401, C402, C208, F406, part135 and 138 (medevac).
We have to pay for ALL or training in this company. ALL of it, whether it be an annual flight test (you pay for examiner and a/c), or type rating on new a/c. Is that wrong, Pilots think so, Management doesn’t….so you don’t like it, you can leave, there’s plenty of pilots looking for jobs.
Now, after 5 years of flying charters in the African bush, freight flights of 8 – 9 hours per night for weeks on end, and medevacs where road landing on dirt roads in front of farm houses in the mountains leaves you shaking with adrenalin for 5 – 10 minutes…..I have had anough and want to move on……

So…..will anybody object if I pay for rating on C172…..or buy 50hour block of TOT, ? No…then how ‘bout going to say….Flightsafety and paying for Lear rating…..then paying for 100 hour block at Eagle Jet…..or a B737 rating somewhere else and paying for another block of 250 hours on that?

Then when I have these hours nicely logged in my logbook, applying to Netjets or Medjets or somebody that requires a type rating and 100 hours on type. Where’s the wrong in that?

I don’t see what the problem in that is. You guys in the USA so easily forget that for almost all pilots this side of the planet the US is flying Utopia. You have EVERYTHING over there. Here there are 3 majors to fly for…. South African Airways, wants 6000hours with Multi crew multi jet experience, yeah right I’ll just ask the Genie in the bottle quickly…BA/Comair wants 2000hours, the only BIG airline over here that is reasonable with req is Nationwide: 1500TT with ATP subjects passed…. the smaller airlines all want higher hours than that.
There are scores and scores of fresh comm. pilots looking to get on with ANY outfit.
We have had in one week, TWO individuals that offered to fly for free…..and management put them on the line !!!! Suffice to say they got a very cold shoulder and left after a week. This is the desperation over here. If you can afford to pay the thousands of dollars needed to get a B737 rating and get hours on it…it puts you ahead of the competition when you apply for a position with the majors here. So why not do it.
What counts is your level of experience and TOT, amongst other things, in THE interview.

You have to look after number 1, nobody else will. That’s as true and sad a fact as the myth of job security.

The people in the wrong here, are the ones like Eagle Jet that offer your services for nothing, and the companies that takes them up on the offer. If you at least got paid a retainer it wouldn’t be so bad.

I have built my hours the long hard way, I do not feel that I am doing something wrong if I pay for a type rating on a Lear or B737 and TOT, if it’ll help secure a position down the line. If a company says, pay us USD xxx and we’ll give you a job, otherwise well hire some bloke outta the pool, and you do it…knowing that the guy you put out is more qualified than you, has been flying for longer and the same type of ops as you, thus is in line for the wheel to turn before you…then you could be labeled as wrong.

This is a very complicated issue with many facets, there are as many points of view, be they right or wrong, as there are people that have an opinion on the matter.

I do however have to say I agree with posters such as Nedude, OspreyFE and IPFreley…..careful who you call a whore, he might be on the panel sometime down the line, or your next DE.

 

[LittleDeuce]

US Pilots

Skaz My friend we also have over here, tons of American pilots out of work.

 

[Skaz]

there's pilots outta work everywhere

 

[A Squared]

Skaz,


How is it that you can see how reprehensible it is for someone to offer to do your job at your outfit for free, yet you seem to be unable to see that it would be equally reprehensible for you to do exactly the same thing ... well not "exactly" the same, you'd actually be *paying* to take a job, not just doing it for free.

are you really this dense?

 

[Skaz]

dense...that a new one, thanks for the insult

I think a little info has been left out.
This referrs to the company that you go and fly with if you do pay for TOT. If pilots pay for a FO position for x Hours, and then leave the company, to be replaced by somebody else doing the same thing...etc etc, then its obviously the way the company does bussiness. Then I do not think you are taking anybody's job. You got the slot you bought and afterwards you are out. The company obviously has incorporated this into their operations and is using 'hour building', qualified pilots in temporary (call it contract) positions. View this as 'training' that you have paid for.

If you then get hired by a DIFFERENT company from the one you did the 'course' at, and you did not pay for the position, you surely have been hired based on your qualifications and experience. Whats wrong with that? Whats the difference between that and having buil the hours over the past 5 years flying for your previous employer?
The playing field cannot be more level than that.

If you pay or buy your way into a 'full time' position in a company and in so doing put someone out of a job, yeah that is , as you put it, reprehensible.

Dont get me wrong, working for free is b#ullsh!t, I would never do it and would do my utmost to remove anybody like that in my company.

 

[PCL_128]

Years ago I told myself that I would never pay for a flying job or invest in something just for the flying. I have ferried a friend's airplane for free but I had personal intrest along the way that I visited. I have done some missionary flying for free but that was expected, the same as putting money in the offering plate at church. It has been a struggle sometimes but worth it in the long run.

I was going to stay out of this discussion because I think the whole PFT issue has been debated on here more than enough, but this high-and-mighty attitude from Turbo really got to me.

Turbo, many people on this board know that you are a SCAB, yet you think you can come on here and bash those that PFT? I PFT'd, and if all of you think it is so terrible, then so be it. But for a dirty SCAB to start criticizing people for PFTing is just plain ridiculous.

That's all for me on this discussion. I just wanted to point out the extreme hypocrisy.

 

[A Squared]

Yeah, dense, and after your last post I see that dense isn't really the adjective I was grasping for. I think "dishonest" is more approapriate, as I read the convoluted way in which you attempt to rationalize a differnce between someone doing your job for free and you doing someone elses' job for free.

in a rather transparent attempt at rationalization you say ".... its obviously the way the company does bussiness."

The same could be said for your company, if they "hire" timebuilders who want to fly for free then "....its obviously the way the company does bussiness (sic). ........The company obviously has incorporated this into their operations and is using 'hour building', qualified pilots in temporary (call it contract) positions"

Ohhhhh noooooo!!! wait!!!!, it's different when it's *MY* job being done for free ... umm yeah, sure pal. It's the same thing. A company needs employees to perform certain revenue producing tasks, and certain individuals offer to perform those tasks for free, or even to pay the company to allow them to perform them, through programs like Eagle jet.

Please, peddle your hypocricy elsewhere.

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T, redux

Hey, I know a guy who want's a job as a flight instructor. Are there any schools out there that will pay for his training.
If not, I guess he will have to do like everyone else and PAY FOR HIS OWN TRAINING at someplace like Riddle or FSI, etc.

What's the difference?

Try applying this two-pronged test: (1) if you must remit cash to the company as a condition of employment and (2) if the training in question is company-specific and cannot be marketed to any entity outside of the company, then it is
P-F-T.

Ergo,

If I had an opening (and there none right now) I wouldn't consider anyone who did not have their appropriate type rating. I don't care how they got it, but I am not going to buy it for them. Now, if I upgrade them to a new airplane type the training will be paid for....in exchange for an 18 month pro-rated training agreement.

The distinction being that a type rating, FSI or SimuFlite card, etc. is a tangible credential which can be marketed to entities outside the company.

Therein lies the difference.

Therefore, paying money to a school to get your CFI is not
P-F-T. You can market your CFI most anywhere. Just run search of flight schools - someone here put up a comprehensive list sometime back - start the resume printing press and the postage meter going, and fire 'em off.

Hope that helps.

 

[AV8OR]

IP and anybody else who has PFT'd or is gonna PFT.

My two cents and nothing else. Here's where I draw the line. If someone wants to PFT, hey I'm a capitalist, you do what ya want and "what's best for you". But.....

I was a causalty of this PFT crap back in 1993. I had better than average flight time with about 500 SIC in jets at a F500 company when they shut down the flight dept. I had just gotten my ATP and was gonna have to make some pretty good sacrifices to make ends meet on a first year pay at ASA since I was getting married in five months. I only applied to one company, ASA, because other than AE, they were the ONLY, (that I know of), company that wasn't PFT, and AE wasn't hiring. So they call me in, do the interview, give me about 200 question "ethics" test and than call me and tell me I'm in and they'll let me know in a week when my class date is. In the mean time my instructor from AllATP's calls me and say's "Did ya hear, ASA is going PFT?" I said no way! But a week or two goes by and I'll be danged if when I call them they say, "Oh yes, we are now PFT, but since you have already been interviewed and been selected you won't have to pay the $600 screening fee you can just start class." I said, "You gotta be kidding, do you have any idea what that costs?" And she say's casually, "Yeah, I think it's around $10,000." I just kinda laughed and told her, that A. I'd be fool to spend 10K without getting a type, just to make 15K a year. B. That if I had 10K it would be a better investment to put it in their stock. And C. That I thought they had a lot of balls giving ME an ethics test and then backdooring me on the PFT after they had talked all about what THEIR PAY was during training and telling me I would get a class date in a week.

Meanwhile, the instructor over at ATP's went over to ASA and PFT'd right on up cause he was still living at home and dad said he pay for it.

That was it. I was out of aviation for the next three years and was astounded that the major ALPA unions didn't have a problem with it because of the potential problems they might see down the road with people who would pay for a job that didn't pay jack just so they could be an airline pilot. But, to each his own.

So now, fast forward to 2003. With any luck in the next year the major freight company I fly for will be hiring again and I, at some point am going to try and get a position helping interview and I'll just tell ya, if I can determine that a guy PFT'd I'm not gonna vote for him, I don't care if he's Chuck Friggin Yeager! For every PFTer who's gettin the job because he will, there's some more qualified pilot who's not gettin the job cause he won't.

So go on and PFT if you want. Yall have the right to make your decisions and I'll have the right to make mine.

 

[bobbysamd]

Anti-P-F-T victims

Good post from AV8OR, above. I like his ethics test comment.

My story is similar. In brief, I was meeting all the quals when I had regional interviews twelve years ago, shortly before AV8OR's experience. I was not hired. Shortly thereafter, a great many regionals instituted P-F-T programs. Ethics and fraud potential notwithstanding, I was not about to "pay" for something for which I was already deemed sufficiently qualified to rate interviews. Talk about having your nose rubbed in sh-t.

Once more, to thine ownself be true.

 

[B190Captain]

Re: Passenger's Perspective #2

I thought of something else last night. Imagine if I was a passenger on a Gulfstream Beech 1900? Say the F/O has 300 hours, and the captain has maybe 1700 hours. Well, guess what, a ticketed passenger (me) has more flight experience than the flight crew combined. Now I consider that a sad state of affairs. I have 2,900 hours and am still active as a general aviation pilot.

Well guess what chief, I have more than twice your experience and I only fill the left seat. Not all of our F/O's are low timers. In fact some of our F/O's have more time than you.

I would be uncomfortable flying on a turbine powered aircraft knowing that the crew was buying their experience and on top of it had less experience than a PASSENGER! That's why I prefer to travel on Southwest especially and any of the major airlines any day when I am buying a ticket. I like to go on a flight knowing that my crew has sufficient experience to handle anything that comes their way, especially if there is an emergency situation. I sure as hell do not want to be paying for a ticket on flight flown by someone buying experience!!!!! I believe that I'm paying the way for the crew and as a passenger I expect them to be earning a PAYCHECK as a result of my paying for a ticket.

That was so moronic it does not deserve an answer.

Now, to clarify, I personally do not mind flying with a 300-hour pilot who is giving me a rental checkout and is getting paid for doing so. That instructor is gaining valuable experience and I would be glad to see that instructor eventually (after gaining some good experience as an instructor) when I am a passenger on a flight. I think flight instruction, dropping sky divers, etc. are great ways for low time pilots to gain experience. Low time pilots, PLEASE make sure you are earning a paycheck--that student or skydiver is paying you so you can get PAID!!!

Instructor experience?

VFR most of the time.

Hardly flies aircraft, student does.

All on right seat.

Not to knock all CFI's but I have flown with some real pieces of work that must have PAID OFF the FAA to get CFI or MEI Certificates.

Dropping sky divers! Now thats valuable time! ALWAYS VFR and drops people off in mid air and when that is complete, a steep turn followed by a dive to get out of our way.

Your statements make no sense whatsoever. I don't want to fly GIA because I have more experience than the crew but if the crew flew as a CFI or dropped skydivers I would?

sigh...

Sorry, I could not resist.

 

[Freight Dog]

B190 captain... I think most people have a problem with ethics and morals of your FO's. Paying for *required* crewmember time, IMHO is unethical and that is effectively stealing a job from qualified pilots.

It's more an issue of ethics than qualifications.

My .02 cents

 

[B190Captain]

B190 captain... I think most people have a problem with ethics and morals of your FO's. Paying for *required* crewmember time, IMHO is unethical and that is effectively stealing a job from qualified pilots.

It's more an issue of ethics than qualifications.

My .02 cents

Let me say this again and for the last time.

WE HAVE PERMANENT SENIORITY, FULLY EMPLOYED FIRST OFFICERS THAT ARE PROTECTED BY OUR TEAMSTERS CONTRACT! THEY HAVE TIME RANGING FROM 1200 TO OVER 3000 HOURS OF PART 121 FLYING EXPERIENCE AND THEY ARE NOT PAID 8.00 AN HOUR. PLENTY MORE THAN THAT I ASSURE YOU. IT IS JUST THAT CERTAIN SLOTS ARE LEFT OPEN FOR THESE INTERNS OF SORTS. I CANNOT DO ANYTHING ABOUT THAT.

THERE IS NOTHING WE CAN DO TO AVERT THE PROGRAM BECAUSE WE DO NOT OWN THE AIRLINE. THE ONES THAT YOU REFER TO AS THE LOW TIMERS GO THROUGH A TRAINING PROGRAM FULLY APPROVED BY THE FAA.

GIA HAS AN IMPECCABLE SAFETY RECORD WITH 0 FATALITIES!!!
DID YOU HEAR THAT ONE KILOMIKE?!?

OH AND BTW NAME A MAJOR AIRLINE OR REGIONAL OR CARGO AIRLINE AND I WILL LET YOU KNOW HOW MANY FORMER GIA PILOTS ARE IN THERE.

NUFF SAID!

 

[Freight Dog]

B190 cap.. I have some questions:

By your post, I gather that you have your permanent FO's and then you have "interns" which are the guys paying for training.

Secondly, another question I have for you:
If I am a qualified guy, and apply to Gulfstream, do I have a choice of getting hired there without having to fork out 20k?

Looking forward to the clarification..

 

[B190Captain]

B190 cap.. I have some questions:

By your post, I gather that you have your permanent FO's and then you have "interns" which are the guys paying for training.

Secondly, another question I have for you:
If I am a qualified guy, and apply to Gulfstream, do I have a choice of getting hired there without having to fork out 20k?

Looking forward to the clarification..

Part 1 is YES but paying for experience. PFT is so misunderstood. But I will not get into that.

Part 2 is NO unfortunately.

Please don't shoot the messenger.

 

[jumppilot]

It all boils down to a famous saying, "you gotta do what you gotta do."

Now before someone calls me an idiot because of my time, and saying "you don't know how the indsutry works!", I do know what it is like to be unemployed.

If I could get a job making 15,000/yr, but have to pay 10,000 for traing, would I? Absolutely not. I'm young enough that I don't want to put up with this BS, and sell myself out like a whore to get a job. The journey is half the fun and I intend to keep it that way. However, making a loan payment of $100 a month would be an appealing proposition for many people.

One person made the comment that someone he knows went to ASA and paid for training, but he wouldn't do it because it was wrong. Well, for the person that went to ASA (and the others like him) they now have 10 years of seniority and are probably drawing a pretty nice check. Are they bad pilots? I'm willing to bet not.

Hey, we all retire at 60. You gotta do what you gotta do. I'm not going to let this bother me. I plan on going to work, drawing a paycheck, and having fun on the weekends. I'm not going to have a heart attack over work politics. Yes indeed people, just because we fly airplanes and it is the greatest job in the world, does not change the fact it is still just a job. Don't have a stroke over it.


Flame away, if you must.

 

[metrodriver]

The 737 type required by SWA (even to get the interview)is also a form for pft, but I've heard no one about it yet. A SWA guy will say it was an investment in his future. Sorry for the guy who doesn't have the money. So a guy who gets a job offer and has to pay for his type training is suddenly different?
I don't like either one of these schemes.
Slightly different is what Ameriflight and some others do. At AMF people go through excact the same training as the captains, and are building valuable experience. Most of the fo's there are doing this as part of their flight training curriculum, kind of like ERAU with the King Air or TAB express (also King Air). They are not taking up a space that would otherwise be occupied by a paid pilot. I don't have a problem with that. I started my flying in the very early 90's and taught for 4 years. At that time ACA, ASA, Mesa, Comair, TWE all had PFT deals. The FSI deal was that you paid $450.- for an evaluation, and if you were good enough they put you in a pool, for some of those previously mentioned commuters plus some other ones to give you an interview. If succesful, you had to pay about $10.000- for your training.
All this was preceded by application fees, look at the current situation and see where it's going.
For all those folks that learned to fly in the past 6 years and got on with a regional with less than 1500 consider yourself extremely lucky. When those PFTdeals in the early-mid nineties were going on minimum requirements at some commuters were 2500+hours, 500hr ME. And that' s before you paid for your training. So take another look in the mirror and tell yourself how good you've had it......

 

[bigD]

Holy crap...I just read this entire thread, and it's funny how it follows the "PFT Thread" script almost exactly.

Someone mentions PFT. Then some dude with "B1900 F/O" in their current position field defends it. That person gets flamed. Then another person asks how PFT is different than renting a 172 for 250 hours. Many people respond. The B1900 F/O defends himself some more, and points out the number of PFT grads at the airlines. Someone else mentions an interviewer that hates PFT, and if HE were an interviewer himself. he'd see to it that no PFT grads would be hired. Someone else talks about doing whatever it takes to get to the dream. The B1900 F/O gets flamed some more. Another guy states that PFT is no different than SWA requiring a 737 type. Again, many people respond.

Lather, rinse, repeat. Maybe add a line or two in there about instructing not being quality time because it's VFR and the instructor isn't flying the plane.

It's uncanny. All PFT threads have these basic ideas mentioned at one point or another. I'm sure I missed some too. What we need to do is play a little game - every time a regular poster here responds to some flamebait by a PFT guy - he owes a dollar to the admins of this web site. I think that'd generate a good amount of revenue for the good people that run this board!

 

[Skaz]

A squared two points to zero, you sure are teaching me a thing or two

You do not seem to understand what I'm saying, so that must be my fault for not making it simple enough

3 companies; X, Y and Z

Company X offers training on say B737-400, which you pay for (duh), but first you must get typed by eg flightsafety......which you do and pay company X USD 30 000, for the training, they send you to another company which they have an agreement with for this line-training.

Company Y, functions in this manner: They employ full-time Captains, and F/O's from company X are utilized for 100 to 250 hours, then that particular F/O has completed his 'line-training' contract and departs, to be replaced by the next F/O ...
Thus full-time Captains, and 'contract' F/O's for 100 to 250 hours

Thus our particular pilot now has a type rating on B734 and applies to Company Z, which requires oh, say 2500TT, ATP,ME, typed on 737 and min 100hours multi crew, multi jet.........his application is successfull and he continues to one day be a DE and sits on the selection board of this airline.

So, my friend, what is wrong with this scenario........? methinks nothing.

so nobody is taking any jobs from anybody else. Please reread carefully if you are confused.
This abovementioned scenario is different from anyone offering to fly for free, or a company suddenly taking direct entry F/O's who pay for their new positions, at the detriment of those already in the company.

these last two examples I do not agree with however