Free First Officers!

[KATL8R26L]

pft

There is another company down in miami that does the same thing.

There deal cost 20,k you go to class you pass you ride for 200 hrs in a 727 then if they dont take you, you are out looking for a job.

i think i will just continue to fly one hour at a time, at least when im riding with an older captian , i can say i built my book by my self, it may take me a little longer , but the journey is worth the trip.

BTW check out the Peninsular Grill, the next time you fly to KCHS, THATS WHY FLYING SO GREAT IT BRINGS A WHOLE NEW MEANING TO WHATS FOR DINNER.


FLY SAFE,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

[Eagleflip]

Fair vs. Unfair..An American Perspective

I see this argument in another light.

PFT represents an ethical dilemma that Americans abhor. Folks in the USA (I sure other countries feel similiarly) believe that fair play is essential in our lives.

Face it: we Americans hate cheaters. Those kids that knew they were tagged out at first base but argued their point ceaselessly were ostracized. Pete Rose is paying for his indiscretion years after the gambling episode. Heck, we even get ticked off when someone cuts in line in front of us when waiting at the bank. It was my turn!

PFT is seen as cheating. It allows those with money to advance more quickly than those without. It gives a perceived unfair advantage to the minority that have resources to gain a competitive advantage over their cohorts. Americans hate an uneven playing field--we seem to believe that we should all have the same chances at getting a job as the other guy; that personal sacrifice should gain advantages; that the aphorism "Seems like the harder I work, the luckier I get" should come true.

PFT sidesteps those arguments and allows those with resources to advance in a non-competitive way. It is an unethical (from the American context of fair play) way to get a job. "Demeaning pilots" or "disgracing the industry" has nothing to do with it. We all know pilots--having paid for their own training ad nauseum--who disgrace the industry by some action or another on the job, regardless of PFT status.

Further, the PFT evaluation process can be construed as biased; again, it seems unfair. Safe flying record notwithstanding, the impression is that anyone who pays for a program such as this may go through an easier screening system for checkrides and qualifications.

Specifically, our economic system supports this concept. Those who provide a "service" such as PFT want to continue their business. Flunking those who pay for training is therefore more problematic; if you (the check airman) are too hard on them, your track record of success may be sullied. That may well lead to inflated performances or checkride-passing improproprieties.

Just another thought in an otherwise excellent (if predictable) thread.

Best of luck to all in these trying times--and I mean it.

 

[LittleDeuce]

PFT

I know two great young Swedish guys that are starting B-737NG training today in Amster**CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** for RyanAir.

They had to pay 29,100 Euros (about $30,000) for thier training.

With 300 hours each Total Time, they will have a great career with the "Southwest" of Europe.

Is it worth it? You decide.

 

[bobbysamd]

As always, I love a good P-F-T discussion

Eagleflip wrote an excellent post.

A big concern about P-F-T should be fraud. The screening process might be easier because the bottom line is to get in you produce a check. Training might be a different concern because that playing field can potentially be tilted. P-F-T outfits are out to make money; therefore, how do you know for sure that the training, standardization and evaluation process is fair? How do you know for sure that your instructors are training you well enough to pass your checkrides? How do you know that the check airmen don't have marching orders to wash out people, no matter how well they do, to let the P-F-T company keep your deposit while showing you the door (and generating a bogus PRIA report)? Of course, you can never prove that you were busted unfairly; it's your word against the check airman's. That's what I mean about fraud.

Finally, getting a type rating in order to apply for a job is not P-F-T. That B737 type goes on your pilot certificate. It is yours. It is valid anywhere and can be marketed anywhere - given the caveat that type ratings usually don't mean much unless you have time in type. By the way, type ratings are tax-deductable.

PS-Why did the board censor Amsterdam in Little Deuce's post?

 

[LittleDeuce]

PFT

I don't know Bobby? I did not put anything objectionable on the post?

 

[wmudriver]

[
They make pilots look like a bunch of chumps. Imagine lawyers working for free or poverty level wages in order to get litigation experience so they could make it to the "major" firms and hopefully get paid the "big" bucks for a few years before being forced to retire. It wouldn't happen. They are too smart for that. There has to be some way to stop this madness! [/B]

In fact laywers do work for dirt wages. Its called public defender. Pilots infact work for dirt wages when they start out. Its called CFI, or Regional FO.

 

[Timebuilder]

Another PFT discussion without moi? Say it ain't so!

Skaz wrote:

So, my friend, what is wrong with this scenario(?)

What is wrong is that people who are paying for this "operating expereince" are fostering an environment of exploitaion and desperation. Yes, it's a shame that so many pilots in the nineties fell in with this approach. If ALL of the operators had been doing this, then there would have been no moral/ethical choice except to decide on a different line of work. I'm certain that many pilots made this decision to change careers, just as many are doing right now. As for me, if I had kids to feed, I'd be doing a morning radio show in Tennessee. "...and now here's bubba with the morning prices..."

Bobby, having been in broadcasting, knows about the "gopher" system. As a young intern-for-free, you go-for coffee, go-for cigarettes, etc. You aren't paid, but you are not performing a required function at the station. You are not paying someone so that you can say that you had a "job". Essentially, when you pay someone to act as a required crewmember, it isn't really a job at all. In a job, the company pays required labor as a "cost of doing business".

Maybe the answer is a required FAA passenger briefing: "Today, my copilot is Stuart. Say hello, Stuart. (Hi, everyone!). Stuart is hoping to fly for Delta someday, and he has hired our airline to help him learn how to operate a turboprop, and allow him to log the flight time for his resume."
(Stuart): Thanks, Bob. I'd like to express my gratitude to all of you 19 folks who chose to fly with us today. Without your help, this airplane would have been waaaay too expensive for me to rent on my own, totally. You guys are awesome!"
(Bob): "OK, Stuart. Folks, Stuart has spent a good amount of money for this, so let's all be nice to him. In the event of a depressurization, masks will come down..."

By this time, the pax are standing, and testing the opertion of the emergency exits...

Seriously, paying passengers have the right to assume that the entire crew is trained at company expense, which indicates that the company is not using the right seat as a profit center. This means that the pilots who were hired reflect the result of a competitive interview and perhaps a nominal application fee. A type rating can open a door at any company that opertes that type of aircraft. It is portable, as mentioned above.

We can continue to debate the ways "dues" are paid in this industry. Was my VFR CFI experience valuable? Yep, it was some of the most enlightening experience I have had in airplanes. Admittedly, most of my dual given was "advanced", and it was valuable, too. More to the point of this discussion is this: when I was instructing, I was a part of a system that rewards hard work, incremental learning, and the ethic of a real job that generates economic value for both the employee and the employer. PFT fails to do that, even when you are "fed back" some small portion of the money you paid up front. Unless they are paying you interest on your money, it's still PFT.

What's the value of this thread? Someone is reading about this controversial topic for the first time, and may shy away, luckily, after reading this discussion.

 

[Mrs_Boeing]

You people just do not get it do you? It's economics stupid. Just plain old economics 101, and our burning desire to fly professionally. Remember how badly we all wanted to be in the left seat of a 767 at Delta with the vest and the hat and the whole can-o-worms? We all wanted this so badly from jump street that had we been financially able to PFT we'd have done so. All of us. Period. Don't say "Not me!", yes YOU!!!! Those who say otherwise are not being honest with thenselves. The complainers and whiners didn't have the means to PFT and that's all it is. If I'd had daddy give me $50K for training I'd have done it too, instead of busting my rather large behind at a little FBO with a bunch of whiney juvinille immature jerkoffs. And I'd probably have that Delta job (lay-off?) now instead of running a 20-year old Citation all over the Southeast for $45K per year. And as for the companies that require PFT, it's just smart financially. They are in business to make money, not supply you with a job just because you paid alot of money to learn to fly and now feel you are owed a position. As long as there are people with the means and the will to pay for training, it will happen. Supply and demand. Simple isn't it? If the supply of pilots went south like in the early 60s PFT would go away for a while. Then it'd come back as the market was again flooded with pilots. The owners of these companies, and the pilots who work for them, are not out to get you personally. They are just trying to make a living.

Some of you are very bitter and you really need to take a long look at yourself and take some responsibility for your choices in life. The views here generally do not reflect the attitude of the majority of PROFESSIONAL pilots who actually fly for a living thank God. Just a vocal minority of immature, needle-dicked, egotistical whackoffs (Sorta like WO school). Please grow the hell up.

Mama B.
"Aviation Cute"

 

[Eagleflip]

PS-Why did the board censor Amsterdam in Little Deuce's post?

I guess they should have named it "Amsterdang"...

 

[Eagleflip]

Mrs. Boeing wrote:

The views here generally do not reflect the attitude of the majority of PROFESSIONAL pilots who actually fly for a living thank God. Just a vocal minority of immature, needle-dicked, egotistical whackoffs (Sorta like WO school). Please grow the hell up.

Ummm....two outta three ain't bad (in the immortal words of Meatloaf).

 

[AV8OR]

Oh, by the way. One other point. Back in 93 when ASA was charging 10K for right seat on a Brasilia at 15K a year, ASA flight attendants were paid almost as much the first year as a new co-pilot........and they DID NOT pay for their training.

Also, I'm not by any means saying that if you PFT you won't go on to an illustrious job at a Major. The fact is, unfortunately, it probably will never be an issue for you in either getting the interview or getting the job. I really did think it would end up limiting hiring potential of those that PFT'd but I have seen absolutly NO consequences. So.... hep ya seff to big O bowl of it.

Just a little side note, and my last one in this saga.

 

[Skaz]

KATL8R26L who is this company?

Timebuilder, mate you are a very good example of why I would go for PFT....you have 1000hours LESS than I, and you are in the position I would like right now. I do EMS type ops in C402/401 and C208...I wanna move up to EMS ops in jets. THat would mean Learjets....so how do I get on with a company?

Do a rating and pay for 100 or 250 hours on a Lear....otherwise I dont make the requirements for most Corporate or EMS operators.

If I do get an oportunity to get on with a company without having to go the PFT route to make the req, of course I'll grab the chance. IF not, I'll go the PFT route.

Little Duece I have to comment on your post, in a situation like that, with 300hour fresh CPL, thats not cool. There should be a minimum of hours req for PFT on big jets like 73 etc. at 300hours they do not have the skills knowledge or experience to safely act as flight crew on part121 or any other ops.

 

[A Squared]

Skaz,

I understood perfectly and completely what you were trying to say, right down to the last word. All you're doing is adding a lot of extraneous details to divert attention away from the central issue.

Here's the central issue; You beleive that it's wrong for a "time builder" to fly for your company for free, but you think that it's just hunky-dory for *you* to fly for free (pay even) at company Y.

Let's go through that one more time as you seem to be confused.

Your company needs pilots, and you don't like it when pilots offer to fly for free.

Company Y needs pilots, but you can't see any problem if you fly for free or pay company Y.

That's it, stripped of all the irrelevant details. All this blather about How you arrived at the doorstep of Company Y through Company X, or that you're going to go to Company Z after Company Z is just an attempt to confuse the issue. Presumably the "free" pilots at your company will go on to some other "company Z" after gaining a certain number of hours too, how does that change the basic issue? Did you forget already what the basic issue is? Short attention span? easily confused? Let me refresh your memory:

You think that it sucks when someone offers to do your job for free, yet you think it's ok for you to *pay* to do someone elses job.



Note: Normally I try to stay out of these "Pay for training", or "pay for a job" threads, but I was drawn in against my better judgement by Skaz's sheer hypocricy. Seldom do you see someone state in the very same post that it is bad for somone to do *his* job for free but it's good for him to do someone elses job for free. It is truly amazing how irrational and convoluted the thinking can get when someone is trying to rationalize something that he wants to do but knows is wrong by his own value system. Thank you Skaz for a fascinating look into the dark side of human nature.

regards

 

[Timebuilder]

Mrs_Boeing wrote...

We all wanted this so badly from jump street that had we been financially able to PFT we'd have done so. All of us. Period. Don't say "Not me!", yes YOU!!!!

Speak for yourself, Mrs. B.

I had the money for the greatest portion of my lifetime. I had it in the early nineties. I received good counsel from many high time captains, the gentlemen of the kind that every kid looks up to, and PFT was clearly not the right choice in their experienced opinions. If a 767 job is your personal holy grail in life, you need redemption, not a PFT program.

And as for the companies that require PFT, it's just smart financially. They are in business to make money, not supply you with a job just because you paid alot of money to learn to fly and now feel you are owed a position.

What an interesting perspective. To follow your logic to its inevitable conclusion, we should all be working for free beacuse there are so many of us that want a flying job, and there are doubtless enough low time pilots with money to pilot most of the jets in America. While it may be "financially smart" for some slimeball operator to offer a PFT program instead of stepping up to the plate and operating a business according to accepted standards (if you don't know what accepted standards are, contact your local Rotary Club), is is up to the prospective employee to be properly informed of the negative impact of PFT on the aviation business as a whole, and on himself as an individual. That's why we are sharing these opinions here. You can call it "whining" if you like. Be amused.

As long as there are people with the means and the will to pay for training, it will happen. Supply and demand. Simple isn't it? If the supply of pilots went south like in the early 60s PFT would go away for a while. Then it'd come back as the market was again flooded with pilots. The owners of these companies, and the pilots who work for them, are not out to get you personally. They are just trying to make a living.

These are all good reasons to spread the word to avoid PFT like you avoid AIDS. If pilots won't do PFT, it WILL go away. If pilots are all as jelly-spined as you suggest, it will remain with us, albeit in smaller numbers because people have been INFORMED. Knowlege is power.

The views here generally do not reflect the attitude of the majority of PROFESSIONAL pilots who actually fly for a living thank God. Just a vocal minority of immature, needle-dicked, egotistical whackoffs (Sorta like WO school). Please grow the hell up.

Ma'am, I've known pilots since 1956, when I was four. I have yet to meet, in person, in the ensuing 47 years, a professional aviator who agrees with the position you have advocated here.

I think that your list of attributes (a vocal minority of immature, needle-dicked, egotistical whackoffs) is a more appropriate description of a person who would speak this way on a public message board. Did they teach you to talk this way in warrant officer school? I doubt it.

Certainly you are free to hold to your opinion, however misguided it may be. A number of young aviators are learning here. I think they learned something from you today, too.

Skaz...

THat would mean Learjets....so how do I get on with a company?

You continue to hone your skills, and make personal contacts, i.e.: networking. You pay attention here, watching for openings, and you present yourself to others as a clean, intelligent person with moral values and self discipline. In my case, the training period lasted a handful of days, and I didn't pay a dime for it. From my first flight as a required crewmwmber, I was paid the same rate as any other FO at the company. My first raise will be my upgrade, probably before Christmas. Remember, luck is preparation meeting opportunity.

Do a rating and pay for 100 or 250 hours on a Lear....otherwise I dont make the requirements for most Corporate or EMS operators.

If you find an operator that only wants 100 hours in type, that's good. As discussed above, getting your own type rating is not PFT, in that it is not company specific. You could take your Lear type to any operator that will hire you at a low wage. If, however, you have to pay someone for the privilege of performing the work of a required crewmember, that sure is PFT. Remember, if operators can't get pilots to play along, then they will be forced to train them on their dime.

Good luck with your search. Your personal honor is valuable. Protect it.

 

[AV8OR]

OK Ms. B, ya got me....

"Supply and demand. Simple isn't it? If the supply of pilots went south like in the early 60s PFT would go away for a while. Then it'd come back as the market was again flooded with pilots. The owners of these companies, and the pilots who work for them, are not out to get you personally. They are just trying to make a living."


So are the companies in Thailand using 7 year olds to sew Nikes and work child brothels. Doesn't make right. Guess everybody has to decide what their integrity is worth.

 

[Airpiraterob]

Cant believe im doing this ...but...

This ring of fire is burning. im about to put my foot right in it i suppose. what am i doing.....wheres a benifactor when i need one.

DO YOU WANT TO TAKE THIS THING FAR?
HOW FAR DO YOU WANT TO GO?
----American Civil Liberties Union-----

sounds like financial discrimination to me. i'm gonna find out what i can. i really think theres something in this that can be solved.

What would keep them from getting in legal trouble is hiring people that meet certin hour requirements. and then for those that dont, make them pay for the job training. thats what CoEx used to do....i think it was CoEx....

I understand some things in life arent fair. i understand that some people have alot of money to spend-some do not have any to spend. thats life. thats fact. When those that have money are able to keep the poor from working, making sure the only that can generate an income are those that dont really need one. then thats an evil problem dripping with an acidic flavor. Even if you take out a loan for PFT, youre still keeping out the people that CANT GET THE LOAN cause they already have an outstanding balance from their origional primary training. thats a job that i cant apply for cause i cant afford the 'buy-in' fee. a gamble.

all you have to do is PROVE that they hired someone FOR A JOB instead of you, based on the singular and only fact that the someone had money. and you didn't. then you would have an absolute law case against them.

common defense?...he/she is buying flight training, not a job....so how do you get around it? thats up to the lawyers and legal people to decide. but think about training and revenue flights and passengers and whats legal and not...hmmm

what would Eagle jet would say to this? my guess is: "that's just life pal"

 

[Skaz]

Timebuilder "If you find an operator that only wants 100 hours in type, that's good. As discussed above, getting your own type rating is not PFT, in that it is not company specific. You could take your Lear type to any operator that will hire you at a low wage. If, however, you have to pay someone for the privilege of performing the work of a required crewmember, that sure is PFT. Remember, if operators can't get pilots to play along, then they will be forced to train them on their dime."

Ok, right, so if I goto Flightsafety and get a Lear rating, its ok. But if I take it a bit further and pay for some hours on type...its not.


A Squared y'know, I really am trying to have an mature discussion with you, as professionals, re this topic. Unfortunately you seem to respond to calm direct questions and statements with aggression and insults. I do hope, for your own sake and that of your crew and pax, that this is not a reflection of your attitude in the a/c.

You might have read my post, but you surely do not understand it. If 'company Y' as we have referred to it, have PERMANENT positions for CAPTAINS, and no PERMANENT f/o positions then utilise f/o's that are doing the hourbuilding courses...then whose job is there to be taken??????????????NOBODY'S
There are, in a situation like this, NO F/O POSITIONS FOR PERMANENT CREW. Do you get it now?

If the company has BOTH captains and f/o PERMANENT positions and then takes either F/O or CAPTAINS that pay to fly for that company or flies for FREE, and in doing so puts the guys employed there already out on the street, THATS WRONG.

Believe it or not, there is a difference in the above two examples.

Timebuilder oh yeah, another thing, the only reason I am even considering the evil PFT thing, is 'cause I am 30yo. In 5 years I need to have a permanent position with a company in order to get full pension. I am not married yet, so no family, but that will happen , then such financial considerations are important. If I was still 20 or so...no problem.

 

[JOHN LA HAYE]

SCAB WHORES

What is it that I am missing? We all pay for our ratings in one way or another. We earn our total time and become qualified for positions that pay. I believe that is what makes PROFESSIONAL pilots. Then we have the duche bag operators who lie cheat and steal from pax and employees, then to top it off they "hire" unqualified "pilots" to sit in the right seat without pay.

We are living in a world of fear and uncertainty where passengers are worried about flying, yet the operators still feel the greed/need to utilize non-pilots for required crewmember positions.

It seems to me, that the only people who don't quite get it are the young fools who think they deserve a right seat with 250 hours and the operators who make out by not having to pay for a real grown up that has a clue.

If my opinion seems harsh, grow a spine, the world is hash and at times down right mean. Deal with it.

 

[Skaz]

JOHN LA HAYE

It seems to me, that the only people who don't quite get it are the young fools who think they deserve a right seat with 250 hours and the operators who make out by not having to pay for a real grown up that has a clue.

couldnt agree with you more

 

[Freight Dog]

B190 Cap... no I won't shoot the messenger. Don't worry.

However, here are some things that you could do as a pilot group:

As a pilot group, you could seek to end that practice. However, knowing you have a scab management, it will be a difficult fight. IMO, it may be worthwhile. After all, you are flying paying passengers and having an FO on those flights is not optional like it is at Ameriflight for example. Therefore, that seat should not be used as a rental. That's my problem with Gulfstream.

PFT is a nasty snake. If people would stop doing it, it would naturally go away. However, you can't compare SWA requirement for having a 737 type rating with the scam that Gulfstream or EJI puts up:

1) You could have flown for Casino Express and made captain. Now you are typed, got paid for it, and off you go. You could have flown T-43 in the military, and gotten typed. You also could have worked for Vanguard and gotten typed, or even Frontier and gone over to SWA. My point is, having a type rating requirement does not amount to PFT. You could have done it the ol' fashioned way and worked at smaller airlines like those mentioned above, or you could fork out the dough and buy it. Your choice.

2) Gulfstream on the other hand doesn't care whether you are an experienced 1900 pilot or not. You gotta fork out your 20k, and that's that. You have no choice if you want to work for them. That is my problem with it.

You see, I'm a 737 FO, however, I'm not typed. When I upgrade in a few years, if I wanted to apply to SWA, I could and I will have gotten paid for my type. While SWA is a great airline and a great place to work, it wouldn't make any sense for me to leave my airline for SWA as IMO we have a much sweeter deal here. However, pilots at smaller 737 operators may gladly jump ship to SWA if SWA is a step-up for them.

Goes to show you... you can't compare PFT requirement at Gulfstream vs. SWA's requirement for type-rated FO's.