Free First Officers!

[de727ups]

Yeah

I understand that photopilot. I hate to admit it, but in the mid-80's, before computers and color TV (just kidding), it was very easy to....not be educated in these matters. I started flying in 1978 when I was in high school and had no one to give me, or any other way, to get good advice. Around 84 or so, I was flying Grand Canyon tours out of Boulder City. This big airline named Continental was having a pilot strike and Frank was advertising 50K a year for F/O's, on a jet, even. I was making $600 a month and, of course, always wanted to fly a big jet. I knew nothing of scabs or ALPA or any of that. I can honestly say that if I had been qualified, which I wasn't, I would have thought seriously about it. Now...perhaps I would have got a quick education by the picketers and had second thoughts...I meant no one any harm. All I can say is, Thank God I didn't go down that road. Nowadays, though, with the internet and people willing to give advice...there is no excuse for not understanding how the industry works and why pilot unions are so important. I walked a picket line in 97 and will do it again in the future. I'm pretty pro-union now and can't believe what I almost did. ALPA needs to do a better job of education. In fact, it would be nice if they came out with a statement about PFT. Also, it would be nice if they hosted a board like this where young pilots could become educated about the ways of professional piloting through the opportunity for questions and answers from pro pilots.

 

[Snakum]

"ALPA needs to do a better job of education. In fact, it would be nice if they came out with a statement about PFT. "

Ding ding ding ... no more calls please ... we have a WINNER!

Minh

 

[TurboS7]

Years ago I told myself that I would never pay for a flying job or invest in something just for the flying. I have ferried a friend's airplane for free but I had personal intrest along the way that I visited. I have done some missionary flying for free but that was expected, the same as putting money in the offering plate at church. It has been a struggle sometimes but worth it in the long run.

 

[tintube]

....... So basically my point is that not everyone that PFT's is out to screw other pilots........

Mabe not, but I wonder how he ( the former PFT guy ) would feel about PFT if he later was to get a rejection on his application, because the company he wanted to work for just started a PFT program........

 

[414Flyer]

....... So basically my point is that not everyone that PFT's is out to screw other pilots........

Mabe not, but I wonder how he ( the former PFT guy ) would feel about PFT if he later was to get a rejection on his application, because the company he wanted to work for just started a PFT program........

Well it doesnt really matter to me what the "intent" is, its the outcome that matters. PFT and paying to be a crewmember, hurts the profession regardless of the intent of the perpetrator.

I am still waiting for 402driver to defend Eagle Jets "program" but he hasnt done it yet, to my knowledge

Remember they say "well it gets ME ahead faster"

Lets look at ahead of who..Gets that person ahead of those who refuse to PFT, or are building the hours by instructing, or doing tour flights, whatever.

It kinda reminds me a of a ponzi scheme. That person, while saying it is okay and not gonna hurt anyone, has to hope that not everyone does it or everyone is screwed in the end.

 

[phutch]

EJA programs are NOT PFT.

Why do people use labels like PFT and SCAB when they don't have a clue what the terms mean?

There are two important aspects of a program that define it as PFT:
Money for training changes hands in the WRONG direction, from pilot to employer.
The position that this person is buying is taking a paying job away from a pilot.

The classic example is Gulfstream Airlines.

Now lets look at programs like Tyler, EJA, etc.

Sure, money is flowing the WRONG direction but it is not for a training program. It is to buy time in the seat. It is a time building program.

The seat time that is being bought does not take a paying job away from a pilot because the Captain and airplane are certified to fly SINGLE PILOT. A perfect example of where the line is drawn is the operation at Amflight. The Brazilia and Lear right seats are not for sale for time building because Amflight can not fly these airplanes single pilot. The rest of the seats in their fleet are for sale.

Also, if you do the math, what you are buying with these programs could be considered a bargain compared to sharing time in a general aviation airplane, Part 91, etc.

To get back to the original post, this was an advertisement targeted at companies who could possibly reduce costs by using non paid people to occupy the right seat. Why shouldn't the companies have the option of doing this and what's so horrible about it? Remember! It's not PFT.

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T

Phutch may be correct, technically, that EJI, et al, are not pure P-F-T. He said these are paid-for time-building programs. He said the aircraft in question are single-pilot. Therefore, the time "paid-for" in these programs may be questionable down the line in terms of legality. It very well may raise eyebrows at that interview you've worked for so long to get. In other words, ethics of it notwithstanding, you can be out a whole bunch of money with a bunch of questionable time in your logbook. You'll also be out the time you put in to the program which you could have used getting legitimate experience.

I'd question the scruples of these companies who would take on "free" crewmembers. I'd also question the legality them of not paying people for doing work. I doubt the local Wage & Hour board would care for this idea. We pilots should not work for free. By the same token, our employers cannot expect us to work for free.

Don't do it! If the money is burning a hole in your pocket that badly, spend it on your CFI. You can use it to work and build experience. If you have any money left over, stash it in the bank. You may need it to live on for a while.

 

[NEDude]

After reading this thread it has become clear that many people blend PFT and First Officer programs together. They are different types of programs. Both wrong in my opinion, but very different.

Gulfstream is the classic first officer program. It is offered to low time pilots as a way to circumvent experience building. These "pilots" pay for the opportunity to ride in the airplane (notice I said ride) and take the position of a required crew member and do not get paid for their services.

PFT is when you are hired by an airline, at or above their typical minimums, and must pay the costs of your initial new hire training. In the end you wind up with training that only applies at your airline and you cannot take anywhere else.

True PFT was all the rage when I first tried getting into the industry ten years ago. At that time almost every airline required PFT. You either PFTd or you sat on the ground, plain and simple. the guys who PFTd back then were NOT 300 hour wonders. Most, if not all, who were being interviewed for the regional jobs had total times three to four times the ammount that guys who were being hired at the regionals a year ago. I know of one guy didn't get an offer until he had over 3500TT. He had to PFT for DO-228 job back in 1992. That was typical back then.

While I do not like the practice, having known several guys who had to do it back in the early nineties, I cannot fault them because that was par for the course back then.

Also I would caution some of the strong statements made by some people on this board. Many of the guys who had to PFT back in the early nineties are now at the majors. When the time comes for you to be interviewed, the person sitting across from you could very well have PFTd back in the early ninties. Or your first captain on the line may have as well. There were a lot of guys who did it once upon a time.

Like I said, I do not like either of these practices. But at least once upon a time, PFT was the normal practice.

 

[phutch]

Huh?

Little Duece posted: "Any way you look at it, it's PFT"

So, no matter what it is, it's PFT? OK OLD FART, if you say so.

If you would use your brain, maybe you could educate yourself on what PFT really is. You sound either plain lazy or unable to grasp what PFT really is.

Good Luck to you too.

 

[Freight Dog]

Hey Phutch,

"PFT" is a common name for scams. Whether it's PFT or PFJ or whatever you guys are griping about... who cares. My personal meaning of PFT is PAYING FOR TRASH. The bottom line is, don't do it. Judging from what you posted about your times, get 60 more hours, and you are golden for freight jobs.

Give you an idea... Ram Air Freight is hiring guys with 1200 hours, and they pay you from day 1. Their website is www.ramairfreight.com
Flight Express, same deal - website www.flightexpress.com
I think Airnet and Ameriflight are also hiring - they also pay you from day 1. Don't try to justify scams because that's just what they are - scams. The less fools willing to do it - the better off the industry becomes.

Good luck to ya!