Free First Officers!

[A Squared]

>>>>>You might have read my post, but you surely do not understand it.

Yes, I understand it completely and thouroughly, I have a full understanding of the rationalization you are attempting.

>>>>>>>>If 'company Y' as we have referred to it, have PERMANENT positions for CAPTAINS, and no PERMANENT f/o positions then utilise f/o's that are doing the hourbuilding courses...then whose job is there to be taken??????????????NOBODY'S There are, in a situation like this, NO F/O POSITIONS FOR PERMANENT CREW. Do you get it now?

I have "got it" right from the start. If Company Y has 5 1900's and 10 crews, that's 10 FO positions which you and your ilk are making unavailable by agreeing to pay to sit in those seats.



>>>Believe it or not, there is a difference in the above two examples.

No, really there isn't. By agreeing to fly for free, you make a paying job disappear, it is really irrelevant whether it was previously held by a paid pilot or an paying pilot.

regards

 

[100LL... Again!]

Too many pilots. Maybe the FAA could raise the 121 FO minimum to1500 hrs. That would go a loooong way to fixin' this.

 

[Timebuilder]

Ok, right, so if I goto Flightsafety and get a Lear rating, its ok. But if I take it a bit further and pay for some hours on type...its not.

Close.

If you want to go out and pay $1500 to $1800 per hour to get some Lear experience with an instructor/captain, more power to you. The PFT part comes in when you are used as a required crewmember, carrying passengers or cargo for hire. In this situation, you are buying the right seat, instead of being paid to do a job in that seat.

There's the rub.

And you can save a bunch of money by doing an initial type at Simcom.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

The PFT situation ebbs and flows with the job market. I was offered a PFT situation about 10 years ago and didn't do it, for a variety of reasons. I believe that, basically, EVERYONE is PFT. If you pay for your PPL, Comm, Inst, you are paying for training. If you go Military, you are paying with years of your life, and many less flying hours per year than many civilian pilots.

To put this in some perspective, this same situation occurs in many other industries (for example, isn't college PFT?).

The one I am most familiar with now is the software/internet/dotcom worker situation in CA.

There are a lot of job offers posted that list qualification after qualification, and years of experience. What's the pay? You are an INTERN! That means, you work 40+ hours/week at NO PAY!

People are jumping at these opportunities, because they have been unemployed for so long. These jobs give them steady employment and the chance to update their skills, which gives them more chances to get the real jobs when they pop up.

There are some websites up which post these ridiculous requirements for a job with no pay. The unemployed software people rip them apart and have fun bitching about the crappy situati0n they're in.

In a lot of ways, it sounds just like flying PFT.

If you're in the situation (in whatever industry) where you may have to PFT to get by, God Bless You, and I hope you can get a paying job soon.

Cliff
GRB

(PS-To get K-12 teaching certification, you need to work full time for one semseter, after you've paid to take a ton of (mostly) worthless classes. The pay for a student teacher? You pay your certifying university for a FULL TIME class load! PFT if I've ever heard of it!!!)

 

[Timebuilder]

I believe that, basically, EVERYONE is PFT. If you pay for your PPL, Comm, Inst, you are paying for training. If you go Military, you are paying with years of your life, and many less flying hours per year than many civilian pilots.

The basic certs are the equivalent of either a high school or college diploma, depending on the type of non-avaition job you are using for comparison. Other training, seminars, etc, are the province of the company for whom you work. When I was a mechanic, my company paid for all of my training and professional certifications, including all 33 ASE certs.

There are a lot of job offers posted that list qualification after qualification, and years of experience. What's the pay? You are an INTERN! That means, you work 40+ hours/week at NO PAY!

I think those jobs are being posted because there aren't enough fools available in the IT industry. Just my opinion.

(PS-To get K-12 teaching certification, you need to work full time for one semseter, after you've paid to take a ton of (mostly) worthless classes. The pay for a student teacher? You pay your certifying university for a FULL TIME class load! PFT if I've ever heard of it!!!)

Sure sounds like something the NEA would agree to. Maybe the idea is to prevent the availability of too many qualified teachers, which would drive down teacher pay and reduce bargaining power.

Clearly, PFT tries to take advantage of young pilots who see this as a way to get ahead. Education can reduce this trend.

 

[JJay]

To get K-12 teaching certification, you need to work full time for one semseter, after you've paid to take a ton of (mostly) worthless classes. The pay for a student teacher? You pay your certifying university for a FULL TIME class load! PFT if I've ever heard of it!!!)

A fundamental difference between student teaching and PFT is that the student teacher does not replace a paid teacher. The student teacher works with the regular class room teacher. It's a mentoring program where the student teacher is constantly evaluated and corrected by the cooperating teacher. PFT essentially eliminates a paid position. There's a big difference.

 

[Timebuilder]

Good point, JJ.

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T

Remember how badly we all wanted to be in the left seat of a 767 at Delta with the vest and the hat and the whole can-o-worms? We all wanted this so badly from jump street that had we been financially able to PFT we'd have done so. All of us. Period. Don't say "Not me!", yes YOU!!!!

No, my friend. I will say, "not me." Read some of my other posts on this issue.

For the benefit of those who don't want to run a search of "P-F-T" and "bobbysamd," I will come to the point. Ethics, morning mirror-facing, and hosing other pilots notwithstanding, I decided that no job was worth buying. That's the bottom line. Moreover, I never had an interest in the "whole can of worms" as stated above. Left seat of a 1900 would have thrilled me to no end. And following that through to its conclusion, left seat of an RJ would have been beyond my wildest expectations.

Although I was relatively new to professional aviation, I already had a modicum of life experience. I never heard of such a thing as P-F-T. Having to pay for my job, although I was already qualified? Outrageous!!

The complainers and whiners didn't have the means to PFT and that's all it is.

Oh, I could have gotten the money. See above for the reasons why I did not. It took me about ten milliseconds to dismiss the notion.

And I'd probably have that Delta job (lay-off?) now instead of running a 20-year old Citation all over the Southeast for $45K per year.

And that is such a bad job?? I would have loved something like that, too. I believe that you are the one who is whining. Finally,

Some of you are very bitter and you really need to take a long look at yourself and take some responsibility for your choices in life.

Reread the above. I believe I have. No, sir, you are the one who is bitter.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

Response to student teacher's not taking the place of a full-time teacher.

USUALLY, the above is correct.

Sometimes, however, the student teacher DOES take the place of a full-time teacher. What some schools do (it happens frequently, but is a minority of the student-teachers), is they pay the student teacher about 1/2 of what a full-time teacher would make, and the student teacher does everything for 1 or more classes. They are supervised, but by another full-time teacher who teaches other classes.

In my area of the country, mostly small districts do this, either to save money, or the student teacher is the only one with the qualifications to take the job.

Cliff
GRB

 

[bobbysamd]

Broadcasting interns

Bobby, having been in broadcasting, knows about the "gopher" system. As a young intern-for-free, you go-for coffee, go-for cigarettes, etc. You aren't paid, but you are not performing a required function at the station. You are not paying someone so that you can say that you had a "job".

I had interns in my newsrooms. Somehow, I understood that they could operate the boards, cart machines, etc. and would be helpful and capable. I remember one was so incapable that we assigned her to retype our Rolodex contact file. The result was mostly typed gibberish.

Another one we had was helpful in our newsroom but was really more suited to jocking. She got a job jocking across town but was canned - I dunno why - typical radio. She came by the station and told me. I immediately brought her to our FM PD, who remembered her, and he hired her.

Disc jockey in New York City (read "Don Imus," "Cousin Brucie," "Dan Ingram")? Money out the yingyang. The internship in Colorado Springs that helped you get on the air: Priceless.

 

[Timebuilder]

I had a favorite intern. When she would be scheduled to come in, I would crank up the a/c. The effect on her was, ah, impressive. I was so bad...

 

[Skaz]

A Squared

I have "got it" right from the start. If Company Y has 5 1900's and 10 crews, that's 10 FO positions which you and your ilk are making unavailable by agreeing to pay to sit in those seats.

youre still a bit aggressive there mate, slow down. I am starting to see your point of view. You, and the other posters, have to understand that where I come from, there is no such thing as Eagle Jet or pft or anything. first I heard of it, was seeing Eagle's advert in a magazine, and getting info on forums like this.

But what you have to understand, is that you are not going to change the industry and the management types signing on for options like what eagle and asg provides, by calling me names.

you and your ilk

you dont know me from a bar of soap, so dont categorize me

Timebuilder

And you can save a bunch of money by doing an initial type at Simcom.

please tell me more, hows this differ from Flightsafety? Or which school or org that you know of, offers the best deal on the Lear or similar type rating ? Info appreciated.

 

[Timebuilder]

Ok.

While the Flightsafety training can only be called "first rate", their prices are equally stunning. It's like asking Elle Mac Pherson out on a date. Expect to spend a lot of money for a high visibility experience.

PanAm Academy took over Simcom, and built a new facility at Orlando, FL. Here is a link to their Lear training price page, under "business avaition". It's a PDF file.

http://www.panamacademy.com/simcom/2003 Lear 3536.pdf

Check the FSI prices, and you'll see what I mean.

 

[Skaz]

Timebuilder thaks, I actually got that info already, but cant find the Flightsafety info on the website? Is it available, or do you need to contact FS for them?

 

[Mrs_Boeing]

they do not have the skills knowledge or experience to safely act as flight crew on part121 or any other ops.

Try telling that to the former cadets at many UK airlines who are flying all over Europe at 300 TT, or the guys and girls coming out of Ft. Rucker with less than that. And don't give me the "They've been specially selected and trained" routine. If you have a CPL and CFI/II/MEI ratings you've been specially trained too. Oddly enough there are things that make a military helo easier to fly than civie (coupled rudder-collective, etc.). Let's all be honest with ourselves shall we? With the technology available today and the vastly improved airway systems there aren't many who have obtained a commercial mutli who couldn't fly your average airliner. The older Lears, Jetstars, etc are much tougher to master I feel, and there are 500-hour wonders beating these aircraft all over the US. I'm sorry but we're just not that special. Most true morons are weeded out in training or by the Grim Reaper before they hit 500 hours. Though there are exceptions. I work with one now that I think about it.

Those of you who said you wouldn't PFT even if you had the money to do so are either not being honest or you just didn't want to fly as badly as every other professional pilot I've ever known in eight years of flying. More than likely the former. But we'll never know will we. It's too late so we'll just sit back and judge those who did. That's much easier on our egos than a hard and honest look in the mirror.

Mama B.

 

[Freight Dog]

I gotta raise the B.S. flag here Mrs Boeing. Unlike quite a few people who 'sold' their souls to fly an airplane, I consider myself a professional with professional credentials offering professional service of flying an airplane. As such, if you want me to fly, you will pay me. I will not pay you for the privilege of flying an airplane unless I am renting a plane for joyriding. I am one of those who absolutely refused to PFT. I never instructed a day in my life - flew skydivers, VFR 135 tours and cargo and commuter to get to this point. I started getting paid for my flying services 2 days after my commercial checkride when I started dropping skydivers. I never paid a dime for multiengine time past my rating. I actually got paid to get multi time, and I got my first multiengine job flying checks in a Seneca with 8 hours of multi (bare rating). Was I making big $$$? Hell no, but I was getting paid something. Did I have an option of PFT? You bet. My family offered time and time again which I refused every time. Something about character and morals.

So what you may say. Well, I am walking tall and walking proud. Looking back on my career, I am very proud to say I never fell for any PFT scam, and that I contributed my share to end PFT by refusing time after time to fall for it.

My reward? Well, I just turned 27. I have a type rating in a DHC-8 from my old job. I'm a B737 FO right now for an airline I was shooting for from early on in my career and intend to retire from. I might have missed some seniority numbers by refusing to PFT. However, you can't beat the experience and the character I've built along the way, and once again, I am standing tall and walking proud - I paid my dues the right way - working my way through.

 

[Eagleflip]

Mrs. Boeing wrote:

Try telling that to the former cadets at many UK airlines who are flying all over Europe at 300 TT...

I don't agree with your conclusion, Mrs. B. OK, so are you saying that the 300 hour wonders in Europe--and here--are as safe and prepared as your average 1500 hour "CFI turned night check hauler turned frieght dog turned commuter pilot?"

You and I both know that is not the case. Even the military recognizes that 300 hour pilots need special management via flight/section leads, very involved supervision and (mostly) resrictive operating environments. Once they gain enough experience, they shed some of the above noted constraints, but not before. I've been there and seen it in action. Young pilots can be safe pilots, but they need guidance.

Would I have been safe to fly passengers in a 121 environment at 300 hours? Nope. Does that assessment parlay into a general caveat? Probably. Don't you think that the Captains in Europe who deal with these "youngsters" have a more difficult time dealing with inexperience in the cockpit? There is no substitute for experience (a profundity that should go without saying, but I said it anyway...)

I don't have a problem looking myself in the mirror; as Popeye so correctly says "I yam what I yam...," a pilot who's proud of what he's accomplished, knowing full well that there is much still left to learn.

 

[Timebuilder]

And don't give me the "They've been specially selected and trained" routine.

I see that you are already familiar with the faults of you own argument. Neither military or UK students are anywhere close to the unscreened, average self-selected PFT participant. Some military transition pilots see PFT as a way to build fixed wing experience, but just as many other former military pilots frown on PFT.

Those of you who said you wouldn't PFT even if you had the money to do so are either not being honest or you just didn't want to fly as badly as every other professional pilot I've ever known in eight years of flying

Grand assuptions on your part. Grand, but I can tell you that you are 100% wrong in my case. All of the money I have ever had is not worth demeaning myself to take the PFT route. That's a judgement. Life is full of them. The key is to learn how to make the BEST judgments possible.

I first held a flight yoke in 1961. It's not "too late" for me, either. I'm not sure what you are trying to say, if there is any intent beyond attempting to characterize naysayers such as myself in the category of "crybaby". In fact, I see widebody pay coming down, while mine is going up. So, I'm happy to provide a little guidance to the newer, younger pilots who will see this thread, and the ones like it. And you are correct in one respect. I really don't want to fly badly. I want to fly well, with my self respect intact.

Some folks don't know how good that feels.

Great post, Eagleflip.

 

[Mrs_Boeing]

My hat's off to the veritable paragons of virtue we are blessed to be in the presence of. You are to be well and truly commended. I commend you. If you really mean it - and you may - I really do admire you for it. But I'm sure you can understand gentlemen I have a very hard time believing you based on what I've personally seen and heard in the real world. You say you wouldn't, we can't prove it one way or the other, so I will take you at your word and salute you.

Now, here's why I don't buy it. I was personally told by senior UA Captain (check airman on 747) that the best way to fly professionally was to "attend one of them there schools that use you for an FO. That's excellent experience and cheaper than renting a King Air". And there's more. I have a family member who flys an MD-80 at CO and was on the interview team when CO was hiring in the late 90s. Just after I reentered the civie world he encouraged me to go to Gulfstream Acadamy or one of the ones operating back then to get the ME turbine fixed-wing time and the 121 experience. And when he was interviewing aspiring CO jocks in 1999 he mentioned he had seen guys with those schools on resumes and he thought that was "the smart play" and that I should have done it. Unfortunately he hadn't offered to pay for it or I would have. I may have been farther ahead than I am now, or I might just have a seniority number but be working at Home Depot. I don't know.

I have mentioned the PFT debates I've read about here to at least five captains at major(2) and regional(3) airlines that I've known well from former jobs or through family, and every single one felt that is the best route through the system. Without exception. And this with no prompting from me whatsoever. I didn't let them know I had any feelings about it one way or the other because I don't, I just asked.

I hate to burst your bubble but the people interviewing at the airlines don't care if you PFTd nor do they admire you for not doing it even though you had the money. That's just a fact. When I spoke further with one of the captians (AA-A300) he said "You're just hearing from a small minority of younger pilots. Believe me no one at the major or the large regionals cares where you got your time. They want to know that your competent and that they'll be able to get along with you for five days straight."

Hey, I'm just the messenger, boys. Don't flame me if your agenda doesn't reflect the reality of airline hiring. Ask the grey-beards here. I've seen a few here over the past year. Ask them if they care or not.

Mama

 

[wil]

Mama B- Your making me hot