Free First Officers!

[bobbysamd]

I'll bite, too . . . .

Anyone who wants to be a pilot must be taught how to fly. Unless you have a father or friend with a CFI and an airplane who wants to train you for the fun and joy of it, you'll have to pay money to learn how to fly and earn your ratings. The entity from which you learn how to fly may promise that you will receive an interview with an airline upon completion of your flight training. Unless the entity is hiring you as a pilot with zero time and you must then pay for your flight training, this is not P-F-T.

In the case of military pilots, Uncle Sam "paid" for their training. In return, military pilots have to fulfill a commitment to serve in the military for a period of time certain. Maybe this is like a training contract. I am not comfortable with this analogy, but it seems apt. Those military pilots who opt out of the commitments early are exceptions.

After you learn how to fly, you may have a friend who likes flying, so you make a deal to split the cost of a block of time. Yes, you are paying for hours but you are not paying for training to work for a company. I rented airplanes for years to fly and logged ever hour I "paid" for.

Let's say EJI or one of these commuter airline bridge programs comes along and offers to hire you for a pilot position However, as a condition of being hired you have to tender a remittance to cover your training expenses. If you do not tender that remittance, you will not be hired. That is pay-for-training.

The fuss behind P-F-T is manifold. One reason is it makes chumps out of pilots and pilots into chumps. Many people want a quick way up and damm the consequences, so they opt for these schemes. They have no pride. Companies who require P-F-T, in my mind, anyway, expect people to grovel to fly professionally and will treat them as grovelers and beggars. P-F-T takes away jobs from people who've otherwise earned them. I wanted a commuter job badly ten years ago. That's all I wanted from aviation. I suppose I could have have P-F-T'd, but I would not because I wanted to feel that I was hired because I was qualified, not because my checkbook qualified me. Aside from that, even, the notion of having to give "them" money for "my" job smelled of con and scam. Overall, P-F-T demeans pilots.

Finally, the magic total time requirment varies from company to company. For example, years ago, as a rule of thumb commuters wanted 1500 tt, 500 multi and an ATP as their basic requirements. Numbers can go up or down depending on need for pilots (notice that I didn't use "shortage" - there is NO "pilot shortage") and quality of the applicant pool. Commuters were hiring recently with far less than what I wrote above and I've heard whining about how hard it is to build the 200 or so of multi to make it to the commuters. In my day, people sweated out the 500-hour multi requirement. Now, I'd bet you need more than the 500 multi to be considered.

Hope these comments answered some of your questions.

 

[JOHN LA HAYE]

I CAN'T STAND THIS CR@P. PFT WHORES, AND THE SCUM OPERATORS THAT "HIRE" THEM. RIGHT UP THERE WITH SCABS.

I WOULD WALK OFF OF AN AIRPLANE BEFORE I WOULD FLY WITH ONE OF THESE FAKE PILOTS.

THE AIRLINE INDUSTRY HAS A ETHICAL PROBLEM. LETTING THESE PFT STUDENTS SIT IN THE SEAT OF A REAL PILOT. THE ONLY REASON TO USE ONE OF THE CLOWNS IS BOTTOM LINE PROFIT.
IF AIRLINES IN THIS COUNTRY WANT TO TRAIN PILOTS GROUND UP FINE, DO IT THAT WAY. IT IS CONSIDERED NORMAL IN EUROPE TO EMPLOY A PILOT FROM NO TIME TO THE LEFT SEAT. THOSE PILOTS ARE TAUGHT TO FLY THE WAY THAT COMPANY WISHES THEM TO FLY, AND BUILDS A FAITHFUL BASE OF PILOTS.
BUT THOSE PILOTS ARE COMPENSATED FOR THEIR TIME FROM THE START.

PFT IS A BLACK MARK ON THE FACE ON PROFESSIONAL AVIATION.

BY THE WAY, I'M NOT A 900HOUR WONDER. BEEN THERE DONE THAT AND HAVE A BOX FULL OF THE T-SHIRTS.

 

[pa34driver]

Wasn't Comair PFT a few years ago? I heard that no one liked any of the Comair guys, or gals.

Other than that, first year pay at most regionals is so low, it is like you are PFTing, even though you have paid your dues. I am against PFT, and something should be done about it.

 

[Freight Dog]

Re: Let's sort this out....

Ok guys, for over a year and a half I've heard this debate over PFT, paying for flight training, paying for a job, and paying for a job/training that takes a job away from another individual, etc, etc. I would like for you to clarify for me what you are actually upset about. My questions are as follows:

1. If an individual meets the hiring requirements (TT, ME, Inst., Turbine....) and passes an interview and a sim check, how is this cheating someone else out of a job?


That, alone is not. However, when this person draws his checkbook, that is definitely cheating someone out of a job.


2. If you go out and spend 35,000 dollars on a C-172 and fly it for 500-700 hours then haven't you "Paid for flight time"?

Yep you have, and you still have ZERO professional experience.


3. If you go to your flight school and post a "sticky note" on the board to "share flight time" with someone then aren't you jeopardizing your "quality" of flight time?


Depends on who's looking. PROFESSIONAL pilots will look for jobs.



4. Where exactly is the "line in the sand" that differentiates PFT (which is the only way to get your PPL, Inst., Comm, ME, CFI, CFII) and paying an FBO to go out a get 100 hours in their Seneca?


You are missing the whole point. Paying for initial certificates vs paying for your job are 2 completely different things. At Gulfscam for example, since it's a Part 121 operation, they are required by LAW to have an FO, yet they charge them $19k to warm that right seat for 250 hours and then OUT THE DOOR! But then again, the airline is run by a scab, so what can you expect?!


5. What is the magic TT number? Everyone seems to use this as the measuring stick..

Whatever the FAA specifies for a certain job... be it 500 hours, 1200 hours or 1500 hours or whatever each employer wants.


6. If you are filling a seat that would otherwise go unfilled, who is suffering more...you, or the operator wanting to take your money and fill the seat?

You are... because you are getting highly questionable time because you are not a required crewmember.


7. If people are worried about PFT'ers getting seats in aircraft quicker than them do you think they would get mad at military guys that could get out of their service commitments early to fill the same seats..? Some people would think that they are on a free ride (this is not a comment about service, committment, country or duty...purely political).

Whooooa..... DO NOT even go there.

 

[Draginass]

I don't know about "taking" a job away from anybody, but PFT cheapens the profession. I don't have much professional respect for people that enable the shlock operators to take advantage of them. I wonder if these operators provide the kneepads or if these guys have to buy their own.

 

[OspreyFE]

Thanks everyone!

I appreciate everyone taking the time to respond. The responces were both informative and professional. It seems to me that the PFT term get's thrown around allot and sometimes isn't appropriate for the topic. The point was brought up about European training (like ab initio?) and that sounds just like what Comair does or has done in the past. What about Mesa and their "Ab Initio" program? Then, for that matter, what about companies like Pan Am that advertise interviews for successful students of their program? Or flight schools that have "agreements with airlines" to get interviews? I understand the clear cut cases of PFT where you pay 20 grand to sit in the right seat to build your time but what about the other programs? It sounds more like an economical debate rather than a question of how were you trained. Again my opinion. thanks in advance for your resonces.

 

[414Flyer]

Well paying for ratings/certificates is one thing...Its just paying for a made up position is bad enough. Its even worse when paying to be an required crewmember, when one should be getting paid.

When people talk about paying to be a crewmember being okay, it is always about "ME" ME ME ME ME. How it gets "ME" ahead of everyone else.

Well look at the big picture. It would be very destructive if everyone started doing it to get their jobs. But they justify it thru how it helps them out..Kinda selfish if you ask me.

But they dont mind hurting the profession and others after them, all in the name of "Its gets ME ahead faster"...

 

[bobbysamd]

Mesa "P-F-T," again

It is an ab initio program but is not P-F-T in any way, because you are not hired by Mesa when you enroll and you have to pay for your training. MAPD is really just like any other flight school, except that it dangles "the interview." I was an instructor there briefly. Take it from someone who knows. Not every MAPD'er gets "the interview." I feel confident in saying that most MAPD grads get "the interview." I had one goofball who, by his actions, was denied an interview. A clear case of snatching defeat out of the jaws of victory. Then, again, although you may be an MAPD grad and are interviewed, it is NOT a given that you will be hired, although your chances of being hired are d@mn good.

I know European ab initio programs because I instructed in one of those, too. I taught Alitalia contract students at FlightSafety. The airline hired these guys to be pilots and paid for their training. Notice that I say the airline paid for their training. My students had earned their PPLs in Italy. They came to FSI, on Alitalia's nickel, to earn their U.S. Commercial certificates. They went back to Italy to finish. Alitalia has its own flight school in Alghero, Sardinia. Alitalia sent the students I had to Florida because it was cheaper to train them here at the time. FSI is well-known for its contract foreign airline programs

Indeed, some flight schools advertise that they have ties with airlines to obtain interviews for their students. I believe that ATA in Orlando has a tie-in with several regionals. But, you still have to fork up the dough to earn your ratings. And, there is no guarantee of getting "the interview."

I remember when I first read about P-F-T in the FAPA Career Pilot magazine more than ten years ago. Air Midwest had some kind of P-F-T program going, before Mesa purchased it. I recall someone writing that only rich people could afford that program. 'Nuff said.

Hope that these comments further clarify this issue.

 

[kilomike]

As a paying passenger, I do NOT like the idea of some 300-hour wonderboy paying to fill the right seat. I pay good money to travel by air as a passenger, and do not appreciate the likes of Gulfstream Airlines having this kind of operation. I am angry that this kind of thing is still going on!! I expect to have experienced and qualified pilots flying on my flight.

I think that if more paying passengers knew exactly what was going on in the industry there would be a REVOLT and many angry passengers demanding an EXPLANATION for this kind of nonsense that is unnecessarily putting the innocent passenger at risk.

If this becomes more prevalent again in the industry I think I'll get myself an old 172 and so what if it takes longer to fly myself somewhere. I know I can trust myself better than some pft scum!!

 

[OspreyFE]

The revolving door spins.....

Kilomike makes some interesting points. He points out that 300 hundred hour "wonders" are prevalent in the system and that he would outcast them if known. This concerns me because it seems that a 300 hour "I paid my time through the CFI ranks in the C-152" is made out to be more experienced than a guy who goes out and buys 200 hours in a Be-99... Who do you think is giving that wonderful $45 incentive flight to recruit new pilots? What gives.. what truely is the concern here? It still seems that there is just a plain ole' fashion' gripe that guys are getting time quicker than others. Some extremely valid points have been brought up by individuals on this board but what I 'm looking for is someone to lay down some details... tell us why one is better than the other.. and not because my grandpappy did it that way. Again, I'm not PFT'ing but it sure is funny how the only guys complaining about it are the ones who didn't do it. I would like to see a PFT'er show up and post some comments on the board (be it negative or positive) to give us some real feedback on this situation because all I've heard so far is one pilot trying to sell himself better than the next guy, and let's face it, you have to sell yourself with qualifications, training, and a head on your shoulders. But if you don't meet the mins then so be it, keep trying, and carry on. Bottom line, some people have been boned in the past by a PFT'er and it chaps their ass and the only way to bring attention to it is to throw the BS flag. IF that's all you got then that's why the programs are alive and well today and we deserve the product we get... I anxiously await.. Sincerely.

 

[bigD]

Osprey - as a professional pilot still in the works, I don't have many of the answers, but after hearing the "what's the difference between PFT and buying the hours to a CFI?" question a few times, I thought I'd put in my two cents.

I'm in the process of building multi time right now. MEI's around here now need about 150 hours of PIC in twins before the insurance companies allow them to instruct, so essentially I'm 'buying time' by flying around in a Duchess. How is this different than paying Gulfstream or someone to sit in the right seat? Well, for one thing - flying the Duchess isn't just a means to build time. I mean, that's ONE reason I do it - but crap, I'm just enjoying the flying. I take my girlfriend to Padre, go get BBQ in Llano - get dinner in San Antonio or Houston. I'm planning on flying to Ohio in May to spend some time with family.

The way I see it - even if I had NO intention of being a professional pilot sometime in the future, I'd still have no problem forking over the cash to bum around in the Duchess (or any other plane I rent). I just love being up there, and it seems to me that the love of just flying around simply for the sake of flying just makes more sense financially than spending the money to sit and tune squawk codes into the transponder of a 1900. I guess I just don't understand how anyone who truly loves to fly cannot consider the 'process' of becoming an airline pilot to be part of the fun in it. It's a long hard road, and I'm still working through it - but I can't say that I'm not having a blast going through it!

As far as I'm concerned, a zero time pilot who sits down and thinks, "What is the cheapest and fastest way to get to the right seat at a commuter..." just doesn't understand why the vast majority of us are doing this to begin with.

 

[JOHN LA HAYE]

OsperyFE,

Let me tell what my gripe with PFT is. The right seat is NOT in the airplane just to fulfill some arcane FAA regulation, or to add revinue to thw bottom line. The FO is a required crewmember because the people or the items is the back deserve the added member of saftey that is provided by having a QUALFIED pilot in the right seat.
Having flown transport catagory aircraft, I can tell you that the learning curve is great enough for a pilot with time in the saddle.
Any "pilot" that is still in the process of learning how to fly at all is too far behind the power curve to be in a position to have the lives of passengers in their hands.
I do not have an issue with fast track time builders. Get what you can. However, I do take great issue with scum bag no account operations that take advantage of student pilots and sell them a bill of goods.
I am not worried about a pilot getting ahead of me by buying time.If you can buy the amount of flight time I have, you are spending more money than I have earned in several years.
In which case you should find a better way to spend your cash.
If that is the cast let me know, I'd be happy to follow along behind you and pick-up the cash that is falling out of your pockets.

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T v. Pleasure Flying

Yes, indeed, BigD is buying time. What he is doing is pleasure flying. In so doing, he is building multi time to make the 150-hour PIC requirement for insurance. He is not paying for training.

Before I decided to make aviation my full-time vocation and before I got my CFI, I was a pleasure pilot. I rented the airplane every chance I could because I liked flying, just like any other weekend pilot. I was not employed as a pilot while I was a pleasure pilot. Was I paying for training? No.

Once again, if you apply for and are offered a job as a right-seater but must give them money for them to to train you as a condition of "employment," that is P-F-T. Although these companies may publish minimum "requirements" to be considered for one of these "positions," the only true requirement for "hire" is the size of the "applicant's" checking account. OspreyFE, that's the point of P-F-T that has me up in arms and most other people as well. Throw in questionable flight time and scam aspects for good measure.

Kilomike and John LaHaye are right on regarding the safety and crew requirement. The right seat of a legal two-pilot airplane is a professional crew position, demanded by the FAA for safety. People should be hired because they are qualified in terms of certificates, skills and experience. The qualification for hire absolutely, positively should not be the ability to write a big check.

I have a comment about 300-hour wonders in the system. Mesa hires its MAPD grads to the right seats of its airplanes. Mesa knows exactly what it's getting. This program is similar to foreign airline ab initio pilot training programs, such as Alitalia or Lufthansa, except that the MAPD students paid to obtain their ratings, just like any other flight school. They still have to interview successfully with Mesa and complete its intial training. They may have an edge because they are familiar with the Mesa culture and are familiar to Mesa. Finally, once they go the line these MAPD-trained FOs are drawing a paycheck (much of it to be earmarked to their student loans!). Once again, not every MAPD grad gets the Mesa interview and - once again - this is not P-F-T because these students were not given a job contingent upon completing their training.

 

[Checks]

As far as I'm concerned, a zero time pilot who sits down and thinks, "What is the cheapest and fastest way to get to the right seat at a commuter..." just doesn't understand why the vast majority of us are doing this to begin with

WELL SAID AND EXACTLY RIGHT!! For the guys out there that truly enjoy flying there is no big rush to fasttrack to the majors.

 

[414Flyer]

As far as I'm concerned, a zero time pilot who sits down and thinks, "What is the cheapest and fastest way to get to the right seat at a commuter..." just doesn't understand why the vast majority of us are doing this to begin with

WELL SAID AND EXACTLY RIGHT!! For the guys out there that truly enjoy flying there is no big rush to fasttrack to the majors.

Wow..glad to hear someone else thinks like I do. Some people just dont understand it when I tell them I am not in a race to get to the airlines. I got into flying because I enjoy it, not to be an airline pilot. If I get to the majors great...if not, oh well. I wont be crying. And I certainly dont spend all my time dreaming/scheming about my next job.

Some people only take jobs that will make them be what the airlines want them to be in order to get hired, instead of actually doing things they might actualy enjoy. If someone really wants to be an airline pilot, well great, but dont miss the forest for the trees.

I am in certainly not in enough of a hurry to "get ahead", that I ever considered any crap "program", or flying for free, or that I would stoop to any such thing like that. I guess for some of us, there is just more to life than how fast we can upgrade, or chase down some job.

 

[hawkerjet]

Even " whores " get paid for their services.

 

[OspreyFE]

Outstanding responces!

Thanks guys for all of the responces.. It is good to see that there are people in this industry because they love to fly. It seems to me that the past 2-3 years of heavy hiring (pre sept.) had motivated people to become professional pilots for the airlines. It is also apparent that some of them were indeed trying to find ways to expedite the process. This, in my opinion, allowed PFT type programs to exist. There have many diffrent flavors for training out there but one thing is true, you can't cut corners in the flying business. I would be curious if anyone would lead a group of us into bringing these types of operations to the open public? Maybe the only way to stop it is to allow people to know more about it. Again, just some passing thoughts..

take care, fly safe.

 

[kilomike]

Passenger's Perspective #2

Osprey FE's comments about leading a movement to bring this kind of pft scheme out into general public knowledge is an idea that is long long overdue. I am willing to bet if the general public knew what was going on that these kinds of businesses would disappear.

I thought of something else last night. Imagine if I was a passenger on a Gulfstream Beech 1900? Say the F/O has 300 hours, and the captain has maybe 1700 hours. Well, guess what, a ticketed passenger (me) has more flight experience than the flight crew combined. Now I consider that a sad state of affairs. I have 2,900 hours and am still active as a general aviation pilot.

I would be uncomfortable flying on a turbine powered aircraft knowing that the crew was buying their experience and on top of it had less experience than a PASSENGER! That's why I prefer to travel on Southwest especially and any of the major airlines any day when I am buying a ticket. I like to go on a flight knowing that my crew has sufficient experience to handle anything that comes their way, especially if there is an emergency situation. I sure as hell do not want to be paying for a ticket on flight flown by someone buying experience!!!!! I believe that I'm paying the way for the crew and as a passenger I expect them to be earning a PAYCHECK as a result of my paying for a ticket.

Now, to clarify, I personally do not mind flying with a 300-hour pilot who is giving me a rental checkout and is getting paid for doing so. That instructor is gaining valuable experience and I would be glad to see that instructor eventually (after gaining some good experience as an instructor) when I am a passenger on a flight. I think flight instruction, dropping sky divers, etc. are great ways for low time pilots to gain experience. Low time pilots, PLEASE make sure you are earning a paycheck--that student or skydiver is paying you so you can get PAID!!!

This is an excellent forum and a great way to keep up with the aviation industry. It's appalling to know that this kind of thing is still going on.

Fly safe!! and don't forget to enjoy the journey along the way.

kilomike

 

[Bluestreak]

From Climbto350.com

Well,looky here-I guess they also donated everything to Ford and GEICO.Next time I see them,they'll get the one finger salute:
 
March 14, 2002
SKYTYPERS (Part Time Sky Typer Pilots - Florida)
South Florida (FXE)
Tel: no calls
Fax: (561) 738-6623
Email: [email protected]
Web Site: none
SkyTypers does high-tech aerial advertising using five aircraft (Grumman Tigers) in V formation with a computer controlled smoke system to do "dot matrix" printing. We did all of the "smoke in the sky" for Ford, Heineken and GEICO at this year's Daytona 500 on 2/17. We are looking for a number of part time pilots with the following qualifications: Located in South Florida (closer to FXE the better); Commercial and instrument ratings; 750 hours PIC minimum. Formation experience desirable, but we will train to meet our requirements. THESE ARE UNPAID POSITIONS!! - we do it for fun!

Wooo-weee !! Working for FREE while they get paid FOR YOUR FREE LABOR sounds like fun to me !

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T and Work-For-Free

I like Kilomike's idea of somehow making the flying public aware of these fine P-F-T'ers in the right seats. Sounds like an article for the Wall Street Journal, anyway.

How about a wage-and-hour investigation for these outfits - and particularly for the skywriting operation? It seems to me if a company is doing business and has people doing work, they should be compensated somehow, even they're not employees but so-called independent contractors. It's against the law to work for free.