Free First Officers!

[B1900DFO]

Someone on PPRUNE found this ad on the internet and posted it on their forum, to say the least most members were quite shocked.

"Use free first officers for your transport aircraft. Reduce your operating expenses! We provide F/O's typed in the A/C of your choice. They will fly for your company NO SALARY or any other COMPENSATION, plus we pay a fee for your company.
Contact Stephen Hoinville at
EAGLE JET INTERNATIONAL AT mia.
TEL 1-305-278-0012
fAX 1-305-378-8925"

They make pilots look like a bunch of chumps. Imagine lawyers working for free or poverty level wages in order to get litigation experience so they could make it to the "major" firms and hopefully get paid the "big" bucks for a few years before being forced to retire. It wouldn't happen. They are too smart for that. There has to be some way to stop this madness!

 

[pappy]

Mt first thought was to call or fax and tell them what I think about their company. But after second thought, I didn't want to stoop to their level.

Unfortunately, there will always be companies out there like this because they will always have people willing o participate in "pograms" like this.

pappy

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T, again

We have, shall I say, a spirited debate going on the Eagle Jet International thread, below. Run a search for it if you can't find it readily.

This kind of BS slays me and kills me. What ever happened to pride and accomplishment in this world? Not to mention exploitation.

Lawyers actually do work for free on some cases. At least in Colorado, attorneys are supposed to work a few hours annually pro bono. It is for deserving clients who otherwise couldn't afford legal services. Obviously, this is not the same. Attorneys generally set rates commensurate with their experience and training, and what the rates are in their locality for attorneys with similar experience and training.

Great post, actually.

 

[aero99]

What a joke. PFT is alive and stong. It is truely sad that companies will take advantage of pilots even though thousands are out of work right now.

I don't know what's worse, the companies that operate and thrive from PFT or the pilots that participate.

 

[414Flyer]

This is rather sickening to me. I would like to see one of the pro-paying to fly types on here support this.

 

[350DRIVER]

After reading that I almost got sick.... What a true absolute DISGRACE to the entire aviation community. Pay For a Job, Pay for a "right seat" is alive and well and since their are plenty of people/pilots who are ignorant to "aviation" this is going to continue and get even worse than it is now.... IF I am ever on a hiring board God help me if anyone is fortunate enough to have me interview them and I find out that they went through one of these ridiculous buying time, buying the right seat programs.- If it is the last thing I do on the face of this earth I will make their life worse than they ever could have imagined...

"FREE" First Officers- this is disgusting folks and a disgrace to everyone who is an "ACCOMPLISHED" aviator who did things the RIGHT way and has EARNED the right to get "PAID" for their hard work and dedication... Anyone who takes part in these programs OR is tied into them should have their head examined and probably should be deemed unsafe to be a pilot due to "insanity" and other mental issues....- - - To put the icing on the cake these right seat "buyers" post on this board and want a pat on the back for "selling" themselves out for "NOTHING" or so called "experience" which they are getting.....

If enough pilots works together and get enough signatures on a petition we can make some headway somehow..... On the bright side of things their are enough 121 drivers who frequent this board who are also on the interview boards that are against these PFJ programs that I am sure they will show these guys the door when they apply to the regionals....In my opinion these programs need to be stopped since in reality these companies ARE taking jobs away from people who have "EARNED" the right to these jobs INSTEAD 300hour "wonder boys" are allowed to "BUY" the right seat for 250 hours in the 1900 at Gulfstream...- I would never wish my worst enemy a flight on a Gulfstream, God forbid the PIC becomes incapacitated and your life is in the hands of Mr. 300 hour "wonder boy"


These programs are a complete "JOKE" Bottom Line.....
the funny thing is all these low time know it alls will respond and try to "justify" how these programs give you the time and experience while they are "needed" on the flight deck... HA too funny!

 

[LR25]

I have a great idea, If there was some way that you could find out what companies were using "free pilots", you just pass it along to the PAX and ask them how they felt about the pilots working for free, hhmmmmm.

But on the other hand, it just might degradate our proffession even more if something like that was done.

There's no real solution is there?

PFT blows baby!!!

 

[ifly4food]

This should be moved to YGBSM. I too am shocked that this company is bold enough to put out an ad like that.

While I consider myself a professional, I'm not too high and mighty to do something. I suggest we all send this company an email telling them how impressed we are with their program. Maybe even post that ad to a few more public boards or start a chain mail to get the word out. Eventually passengers will hear about it.

 

[bobbysamd]

Pay for Interview

While we're at it, let's do something about these scams. Buying an interview. When submitting an app and an application fee, tons and tons of updates, more apps, submitting more updates, and walking in updates won't do it for you.

Mesa had a deal in which you take your ATP ride with them, with their examiner, and pay him and them to take the ride. If you passed the first time, you got an interview. Notice I keep using the second-person and "pay." Yes, if you paid and passed the first time you were interviewed. If you PAID and failed, you were rechecked but got no interview. I seriously doubt that the examiner was disposed to giving a fair practical, even though you PAID, because he was working for Mesa. I will say in all fairness that there were people who passed on the first try. Quite a few failed on the first try, too.

I can't remember for sure, but didn't Comair run a similar program at one time?

I'd sign the petition to ban P-F-T and pay-for-interview, but it's still free enterprise and a free society. Education and enlightenment are the keys.

 

[Snakum]

I gotta weigh in on this one ...

First of all, PFT sucks. I would never do it, even if I could afford it, because I have more self-respect than to work for free and I'm going the CFI route because I want to learn. It does, indeed degrade the profession and those who participate should have to live with the consequences of that decision.

All that said however, based on what I've learned ... there are NO consequences for PFTing. Let me say again ... nothing bad will happen to you in an interview or in the cockpit if you PFT. When I started flying again last year I talked to current or retired captains and FOs from US, AA, ACA, COEX and CAL. PFT was not only a non-issue with everyone I talked to - even though all of them went the CFI route - without exception the major captains agreed it was the best way to get thru the system quickly. Their words ... not mine. As long as there are wannabes who will pay, companies like Tyler and Eagle will be there to cash the checks. I have probably spoken at length to 50 regional, national, and major flight crew and I have never had one single person hear of PFT being an issue in an interview or on the line.

You guys - not me, I'll be flying corporate ) - have the ability to set the price to be paid for pilots who prostitue themselves to shady operators like EJI and TJ. I've been listening to bitching about PFT on various forums for four years now, why hasn't someone tried to make a difference if it's so universally despised? What can you guys really do about it? Any ideas? I'm sincerely curious because I think it stinks!

Minh

 

[Braniff]

Actually, during an interview a chief pilot asked point blank, "Did you pay for any of your flight time apart from training?" and I said no, but I did ask why he asked.

He said that he prefers to see time that a company hired you to build because "...any Tom, Dick or Mary can cut a check and buy 500 hours in a Metro..."

Be very careful!

Braniff

 

[350DRIVER]

I must agree with Ifly4food about how the correct accurate information can and should get out regarding these companies which ultimately if we are successful at doing this the passengers and general public will realize a safety issue is at stake and probably will generate some interest with other officials including the FAA..... The other day I was doing some research for our 135 company to see about changing and ammending some issues in our ops specs and I spoke to a senior inspector at FAA HQ in DC and after we talked for awhile I spoke to him about these programs and he expressed not only outrage on his behalf but also of numerous other FAA employees there that are against these "buying time" programs. He also stated that their is currently a push within the FAA to end these programs requiring TWO company employed pilots on ALL multi-engine aircraft operating under part 135.- I asked him for some kind of time frame and he couldn't even speculate due to as he said the "politics" of the issue and the many hurdles that they need to get through..- I think if this were to take place they could no longer "sell" the right seat out .....- This was very positive news to hear this since the FAA is now working on the issue which will hopefully bring some sort of an end to these disgraceful programs...

I like the idea of sending the chain mail with signatures of many pilots to the American people in certain geographical locations to get the facts out, if we can keep one paasenger away from flying Gulfstream then I think we have done some good....

 

[Freight Dog]

If someone bought "professional" time, in my book is not a professional therefore would not be eligible to be hired. If I find myself sitting on a hiring board here or anywhere, NO PFT pilot will ever get through the door. I want to share cockpit with professionals. People who PFT do not deserve commercial pilot certificates since they act like private pilots - buying time. That equates to ZERO professional experience.

As I said... an anti-PFT generation of pilots has been coming up from the mid to late 90's and they will be the ones sitting on the hiring boards and weed people out. Bad time to be a PFT-er.

 

[airjackson]

No need to worry about demeaning the profession when the rantings of some on this board -350driver- do it just fine.
By the way, does 1100 hrs make one an official "accomplished aviator"?
Good thing I did things the "right way" by instructing. No, I don't agree with selling yourself into a right seat but between your above mentioned diatribe and left-leaning gun debate lessons, I just have to say...dude, chill out!

 

[starchkr]

To the original post... where exactly did you find this? I would like to look it up and see it myself.

I kind of hate to be the pessimist here, but i believe all the above posts were in response to flame bait.

If it is true however, i would be glad to give them a call posing as a very interested employer to see exactly what they have to say. It could make for a good post follow up.

 

[bobbysamd]

Eagle Jet International P-F-T

Hey, starchkr, your comment got me thinking that maybe we were indeed responding to flamebait. There is a thread elsewhere on the board on this "company." In any event, I thought I'd try to find it. Here's the webpage I found:

http://www.eaglejet.net/

Go there and then click on the "Program Pricing" button. It's pretty rich, e.g.:

Aircraft: Boeing 737-200
Hours Price Training
250 $36500 First Officer Experience, Type Rating and Line Check

Apologies if the spacing doesn't come out right on my post.

Gol-lee, that is nearly a full year's pay for a lot of professional people.

I copied this contact information off the page, which matches the telephone numbers in the original post above:

13200 SW 128 Street, Unit A-1, Miami FL 33186
Phone: 305-278-0012 | Fax: 305-378-8925


Once again, it just slays me.

 

[350DRIVER]

airjackson-
You have 900TT and fly the 145, all the experience you bring to this board is unreal, maybee at 1200TT you can apply all your experience and wisdom and go to UAL or another major that has the 777.. lol- - -

any other wisdom you can pass along to us would be truly taken to heart since your post gave us a few laughs tonight...

 

[OspreyFE]

Let's sort this out....

Ok guys, for over a year and a half I've heard this debate over PFT, paying for flight training, paying for a job, and paying for a job/training that takes a job away from another individual, etc, etc. I would like for you to clarify for me what you are actually upset about. My questions are as follows:

1. If an individual meets the hiring requirements (TT, ME, Inst., Turbine....) and passes an interview and a sim check, how is this cheating someone else out of a job?

2. If you go out and spend 35,000 dollars on a C-172 and fly it for 500-700 hours then haven't you "Paid for flight time"?

3. If you go to your flight school and post a "sticky note" on the board to "share flight time" with someone then aren't you jeopardizing your "quality" of flight time?

4. Where exactly is the "line in the sand" that differentiates PFT (which is the only way to get your PPL, Inst., Comm, ME, CFI, CFII) and paying an FBO to go out a get 100 hours in their Seneca?

5. What is the magic TT number? Everyone seems to use this as the measuring stick..

6. If you are filling a seat that would otherwise go unfilled, who is suffering more...you, or the operator wanting to take your money and fill the seat?

7. If people are worried about PFT'ers getting seats in aircraft quicker than them do you think they would get mad at military guys that could get out of their service commitments early to fill the same seats..? Some people would think that they are on a free ride (this is not a comment about service, committment, country or duty...purely political).

I know that this is going to come under heavy fire from the aviation community but I would really like to know why people feel the way the do about PFt. And better yet, I think most people respond to posts without knowing exactly which "twist" has been put on the PFT title....

I have not PFT'd, bent over, bent down, or swung around for flying time...I just want to know what the fuss is all about...
this is my opinion only and look forward to your comments..

 

[Dieterly]

Please ignore, flame bait..

 

[tintube]

Ospreyfe, I'll take youre bait..........

If you ( truley ) do not know what PFT is:

If you pay money to the company that intends to employ you, for training to get you qualified to fill the position because they REQUIRE you to do it, they you are PFT.

Nothing more, nothing less......

 

[bobbysamd]

I'll bite, too . . . .

Anyone who wants to be a pilot must be taught how to fly. Unless you have a father or friend with a CFI and an airplane who wants to train you for the fun and joy of it, you'll have to pay money to learn how to fly and earn your ratings. The entity from which you learn how to fly may promise that you will receive an interview with an airline upon completion of your flight training. Unless the entity is hiring you as a pilot with zero time and you must then pay for your flight training, this is not P-F-T.

In the case of military pilots, Uncle Sam "paid" for their training. In return, military pilots have to fulfill a commitment to serve in the military for a period of time certain. Maybe this is like a training contract. I am not comfortable with this analogy, but it seems apt. Those military pilots who opt out of the commitments early are exceptions.

After you learn how to fly, you may have a friend who likes flying, so you make a deal to split the cost of a block of time. Yes, you are paying for hours but you are not paying for training to work for a company. I rented airplanes for years to fly and logged ever hour I "paid" for.

Let's say EJI or one of these commuter airline bridge programs comes along and offers to hire you for a pilot position However, as a condition of being hired you have to tender a remittance to cover your training expenses. If you do not tender that remittance, you will not be hired. That is pay-for-training.

The fuss behind P-F-T is manifold. One reason is it makes chumps out of pilots and pilots into chumps. Many people want a quick way up and damm the consequences, so they opt for these schemes. They have no pride. Companies who require P-F-T, in my mind, anyway, expect people to grovel to fly professionally and will treat them as grovelers and beggars. P-F-T takes away jobs from people who've otherwise earned them. I wanted a commuter job badly ten years ago. That's all I wanted from aviation. I suppose I could have have P-F-T'd, but I would not because I wanted to feel that I was hired because I was qualified, not because my checkbook qualified me. Aside from that, even, the notion of having to give "them" money for "my" job smelled of con and scam. Overall, P-F-T demeans pilots.

Finally, the magic total time requirment varies from company to company. For example, years ago, as a rule of thumb commuters wanted 1500 tt, 500 multi and an ATP as their basic requirements. Numbers can go up or down depending on need for pilots (notice that I didn't use "shortage" - there is NO "pilot shortage") and quality of the applicant pool. Commuters were hiring recently with far less than what I wrote above and I've heard whining about how hard it is to build the 200 or so of multi to make it to the commuters. In my day, people sweated out the 500-hour multi requirement. Now, I'd bet you need more than the 500 multi to be considered.

Hope these comments answered some of your questions.

 

[JOHN LA HAYE]

I CAN'T STAND THIS CR@P. PFT WHORES, AND THE SCUM OPERATORS THAT "HIRE" THEM. RIGHT UP THERE WITH SCABS.

I WOULD WALK OFF OF AN AIRPLANE BEFORE I WOULD FLY WITH ONE OF THESE FAKE PILOTS.

THE AIRLINE INDUSTRY HAS A ETHICAL PROBLEM. LETTING THESE PFT STUDENTS SIT IN THE SEAT OF A REAL PILOT. THE ONLY REASON TO USE ONE OF THE CLOWNS IS BOTTOM LINE PROFIT.
IF AIRLINES IN THIS COUNTRY WANT TO TRAIN PILOTS GROUND UP FINE, DO IT THAT WAY. IT IS CONSIDERED NORMAL IN EUROPE TO EMPLOY A PILOT FROM NO TIME TO THE LEFT SEAT. THOSE PILOTS ARE TAUGHT TO FLY THE WAY THAT COMPANY WISHES THEM TO FLY, AND BUILDS A FAITHFUL BASE OF PILOTS.
BUT THOSE PILOTS ARE COMPENSATED FOR THEIR TIME FROM THE START.

PFT IS A BLACK MARK ON THE FACE ON PROFESSIONAL AVIATION.

BY THE WAY, I'M NOT A 900HOUR WONDER. BEEN THERE DONE THAT AND HAVE A BOX FULL OF THE T-SHIRTS.

 

[pa34driver]

Wasn't Comair PFT a few years ago? I heard that no one liked any of the Comair guys, or gals.

Other than that, first year pay at most regionals is so low, it is like you are PFTing, even though you have paid your dues. I am against PFT, and something should be done about it.

 

[Freight Dog]

Re: Let's sort this out....

Ok guys, for over a year and a half I've heard this debate over PFT, paying for flight training, paying for a job, and paying for a job/training that takes a job away from another individual, etc, etc. I would like for you to clarify for me what you are actually upset about. My questions are as follows:

1. If an individual meets the hiring requirements (TT, ME, Inst., Turbine....) and passes an interview and a sim check, how is this cheating someone else out of a job?


That, alone is not. However, when this person draws his checkbook, that is definitely cheating someone out of a job.


2. If you go out and spend 35,000 dollars on a C-172 and fly it for 500-700 hours then haven't you "Paid for flight time"?

Yep you have, and you still have ZERO professional experience.


3. If you go to your flight school and post a "sticky note" on the board to "share flight time" with someone then aren't you jeopardizing your "quality" of flight time?


Depends on who's looking. PROFESSIONAL pilots will look for jobs.



4. Where exactly is the "line in the sand" that differentiates PFT (which is the only way to get your PPL, Inst., Comm, ME, CFI, CFII) and paying an FBO to go out a get 100 hours in their Seneca?


You are missing the whole point. Paying for initial certificates vs paying for your job are 2 completely different things. At Gulfscam for example, since it's a Part 121 operation, they are required by LAW to have an FO, yet they charge them $19k to warm that right seat for 250 hours and then OUT THE DOOR! But then again, the airline is run by a scab, so what can you expect?!


5. What is the magic TT number? Everyone seems to use this as the measuring stick..

Whatever the FAA specifies for a certain job... be it 500 hours, 1200 hours or 1500 hours or whatever each employer wants.


6. If you are filling a seat that would otherwise go unfilled, who is suffering more...you, or the operator wanting to take your money and fill the seat?

You are... because you are getting highly questionable time because you are not a required crewmember.


7. If people are worried about PFT'ers getting seats in aircraft quicker than them do you think they would get mad at military guys that could get out of their service commitments early to fill the same seats..? Some people would think that they are on a free ride (this is not a comment about service, committment, country or duty...purely political).

Whooooa..... DO NOT even go there.

 

[Draginass]

I don't know about "taking" a job away from anybody, but PFT cheapens the profession. I don't have much professional respect for people that enable the shlock operators to take advantage of them. I wonder if these operators provide the kneepads or if these guys have to buy their own.

 

[OspreyFE]

Thanks everyone!

I appreciate everyone taking the time to respond. The responces were both informative and professional. It seems to me that the PFT term get's thrown around allot and sometimes isn't appropriate for the topic. The point was brought up about European training (like ab initio?) and that sounds just like what Comair does or has done in the past. What about Mesa and their "Ab Initio" program? Then, for that matter, what about companies like Pan Am that advertise interviews for successful students of their program? Or flight schools that have "agreements with airlines" to get interviews? I understand the clear cut cases of PFT where you pay 20 grand to sit in the right seat to build your time but what about the other programs? It sounds more like an economical debate rather than a question of how were you trained. Again my opinion. thanks in advance for your resonces.

 

[414Flyer]

Well paying for ratings/certificates is one thing...Its just paying for a made up position is bad enough. Its even worse when paying to be an required crewmember, when one should be getting paid.

When people talk about paying to be a crewmember being okay, it is always about "ME" ME ME ME ME. How it gets "ME" ahead of everyone else.

Well look at the big picture. It would be very destructive if everyone started doing it to get their jobs. But they justify it thru how it helps them out..Kinda selfish if you ask me.

But they dont mind hurting the profession and others after them, all in the name of "Its gets ME ahead faster"...

 

[bobbysamd]

Mesa "P-F-T," again

It is an ab initio program but is not P-F-T in any way, because you are not hired by Mesa when you enroll and you have to pay for your training. MAPD is really just like any other flight school, except that it dangles "the interview." I was an instructor there briefly. Take it from someone who knows. Not every MAPD'er gets "the interview." I feel confident in saying that most MAPD grads get "the interview." I had one goofball who, by his actions, was denied an interview. A clear case of snatching defeat out of the jaws of victory. Then, again, although you may be an MAPD grad and are interviewed, it is NOT a given that you will be hired, although your chances of being hired are d@mn good.

I know European ab initio programs because I instructed in one of those, too. I taught Alitalia contract students at FlightSafety. The airline hired these guys to be pilots and paid for their training. Notice that I say the airline paid for their training. My students had earned their PPLs in Italy. They came to FSI, on Alitalia's nickel, to earn their U.S. Commercial certificates. They went back to Italy to finish. Alitalia has its own flight school in Alghero, Sardinia. Alitalia sent the students I had to Florida because it was cheaper to train them here at the time. FSI is well-known for its contract foreign airline programs

Indeed, some flight schools advertise that they have ties with airlines to obtain interviews for their students. I believe that ATA in Orlando has a tie-in with several regionals. But, you still have to fork up the dough to earn your ratings. And, there is no guarantee of getting "the interview."

I remember when I first read about P-F-T in the FAPA Career Pilot magazine more than ten years ago. Air Midwest had some kind of P-F-T program going, before Mesa purchased it. I recall someone writing that only rich people could afford that program. 'Nuff said.

Hope that these comments further clarify this issue.

 

[kilomike]

As a paying passenger, I do NOT like the idea of some 300-hour wonderboy paying to fill the right seat. I pay good money to travel by air as a passenger, and do not appreciate the likes of Gulfstream Airlines having this kind of operation. I am angry that this kind of thing is still going on!! I expect to have experienced and qualified pilots flying on my flight.

I think that if more paying passengers knew exactly what was going on in the industry there would be a REVOLT and many angry passengers demanding an EXPLANATION for this kind of nonsense that is unnecessarily putting the innocent passenger at risk.

If this becomes more prevalent again in the industry I think I'll get myself an old 172 and so what if it takes longer to fly myself somewhere. I know I can trust myself better than some pft scum!!

 

[OspreyFE]

The revolving door spins.....

Kilomike makes some interesting points. He points out that 300 hundred hour "wonders" are prevalent in the system and that he would outcast them if known. This concerns me because it seems that a 300 hour "I paid my time through the CFI ranks in the C-152" is made out to be more experienced than a guy who goes out and buys 200 hours in a Be-99... Who do you think is giving that wonderful $45 incentive flight to recruit new pilots? What gives.. what truely is the concern here? It still seems that there is just a plain ole' fashion' gripe that guys are getting time quicker than others. Some extremely valid points have been brought up by individuals on this board but what I 'm looking for is someone to lay down some details... tell us why one is better than the other.. and not because my grandpappy did it that way. Again, I'm not PFT'ing but it sure is funny how the only guys complaining about it are the ones who didn't do it. I would like to see a PFT'er show up and post some comments on the board (be it negative or positive) to give us some real feedback on this situation because all I've heard so far is one pilot trying to sell himself better than the next guy, and let's face it, you have to sell yourself with qualifications, training, and a head on your shoulders. But if you don't meet the mins then so be it, keep trying, and carry on. Bottom line, some people have been boned in the past by a PFT'er and it chaps their ass and the only way to bring attention to it is to throw the BS flag. IF that's all you got then that's why the programs are alive and well today and we deserve the product we get... I anxiously await.. Sincerely.