Fred a no-show in GSO today

[relief tube]

The scourge of the industry which are regional airlines would cease to exist!

The real scourge of the industry are the low cost carriers, those that charge pennies to travel cross country. The "Southwest/Airtran/JetBlue Effect" is a main cause of all the current hardships in this industry.

2 examples: Jetblue's introductory $29 fares BOS-JFK, & a friend just bought a roundtrip from Midway to orlando for $120. How can anything good come from all this?

Mainline determines how much flying goes to the regionals, and the more the LCC's undercut them, the more of the flying they have to give away.

It's simple math. You got companies out there that want to charge half as much as the gas it takes to drive there, everyone else is going to loose.

 

[h25b]

The real scourge of the industry are the low cost carriers, those that charge pennies to travel cross country. The "Southwest/Airtran/JetBlue Effect" is a main cause of all the current hardships in this industry.

2 examples: Jetblue's introductory $29 fares BOS-JFK, & a friend just bought a roundtrip from Midway to orlando for $120. How can anything good come from all this?

Mainline determines how much flying goes to the regionals, and the more the LCC's undercut them, the more of the flying they have to give away.

It's simple math. You got companies out there that want to charge half as much as the gas it takes to drive there, everyone else is going to loose.

One of the dumbest posts I've ever read on this board...

Last time I checked at least two (not sure about AirTran) of those carriers you mentioned are profitable and at least Southwest has very good pay rates. We could argue about the 190 pay rates at JetBlue. I think the industry needs more of the "Southwest Effect" if what you were referring to was profitability. Start thinking for yourself and don't join the "why don't they just raise fares crowd." That's an ignorant and uneducated view of the industry. If they took that road you'd see the airline industry go back to the days of mostly business travelers and drive away the personal/pleasure travel. I remember growing up and it being an amazingly rare event for anyone to fly to their vacation.

The legacy carriers got themselves in this mess and have no one else to blame but themselves.

I knew we were in trouble when I started connecting from one regional jet to another regional jet when traveling somewhere... Seriously, it's gotten to a point where you almost never get to ride on anything other than a da^n RJ, at least domestically.

 

[Halo_RJdriver]

RElief Tube got it RIGHT

One of the dumbest posts I've ever read on this board...

Last time I checked at least two (not sure about AirTran) of those carriers you mentioned are profitable and at least Southwest has very good pay rates. We could argue about the 190 pay rates at JetBlue. I think the industry needs more of the "Southwest Effect" if what you were referring to was profitability. Start thinking for yourself and don't join the "why don't they just raise fares crowd." That's an ignorant and uneducated view of the industry. If they took that road you'd see the airline industry go back to the days of mostly business travelers and drive away the personal/pleasure travel. I remember growing up and it being an amazingly rare event for anyone to fly to their vacation.

The legacy carriers got themselves in this mess and have no one else to blame but themselves.

I knew we were in trouble when I started connecting from one regional jet to another regional jet when traveling somewhere... Seriously, it's gotten to a point where you almost never get to ride on anything other than a da^n RJ, at least domestically.

How long have you been around aviation and aviation history? Just because SouthWest, JetBlu, etc. are profitable does not mean they have helped the industry. They are the Greyhound's of america. Let people that want to pay for greyhound fares ride the bus. We don't need to lower the bar to match LLC's. YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR........They lowered the bar underneath the Professional Airlines and Pilots. Walmartization of America started with Southwest. Talk to any pilot or employee of a legacy carrier and ask them what they know of southwest say circa early 90's. TRAILER TRASH FARES ALERT........The bottom of the barrel was here with the LLC'S not Regionals.

 

[h25b]

How long have you been around aviation and aviation history? Just because SouthWest, JetBlu, etc. are profitable does not mean they have helped the industry. They are the Greyhound's of america. Let people that want to pay for greyhound fares ride the bus. We don't need to lower the bar to match LLC's. YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR........They lowered the bar underneath the Professional Airlines and Pilots. Walmartization of America started with Southwest. Talk to any pilot or employee of a legacy carrier and ask them what they know of southwest say circa early 90's. TRAILER TRASH FARES ALERT........The bottom of the barrel was here with the LLC'S not Regionals.

Darn those highly paid 737 pilots working at a profitable carrier providing efficient, reliable, affordable, domestic air tranportation to the general public... What are they thinking... ????

So you advocate raising fairs and taking out 30-40% of the nation's air travelers out of the skys ? How many jobs do you think we'd be losing then ? Having a single income family of four I can tell you that our and many other families would be driving without these carriers. Disposable income for us "trailer trash", college educated, members of the shrinking middle class types is pretty limited. Wasn't it Henry Ford who made himself an American icon by believing that his own workforce should be able to afford his product or did I read something wrong ? Does that not apply to the airline industry.

Fill us all in on your vision of the industry all-knowing one... Please, we're all ears. I was always told that more customers was generally a good thing. Of course though I like to think I'm not a total elitest, simpleton either..

PROFITABLE=NOT GOOD .... ???? .... I guess you're not a business major and the thousands of SWA wannabes that go out and smack down 7000-10000 bucks buying a type rating have it all wrong then.

 

[pipejockey]

Darn those highly paid 737 pilots

So you advocate raising fairs and taking out 30-40% of the nation's air travelers out of the skys ? How many jobs do you think we'd be losing then ?

WHAT??? Highly paid? United, Delta, and I think NWA had higher payrates for a 737 size aircraft 5 years ago! Not to mention the QOL and workrules and pension that made the career worth having just a few years ago. And what about 1998,1999, and 2000 when the the majors were making gobs of money and about half of those rj's you see today. We still had vacation and leasure travelers in large numbers. But we had more high dollar business travelers who have gone by the wayside. 1 full fare coach class ticket was probably worth 3 of these cheap leisure fares you see today. And First Class travelers were the icing on the cake. Now it seems like just a bunch of upgrades in first class who didn't pay anything near first class rate...I hate those people looking all smug like they paid the $2000 fare.

 

[h25b]

WHAT??? Highly paid? United, Delta, and I think NWA had higher payrates for a 737 size aircraft 5 years ago! Not to mention the QOL and workrules and pension that made the career worth having just a few years ago. And what about 1998,1999, and 2000 when the the majors were making gobs of money and about half of those rj's you see today. We still had vacation and leasure travelers in large numbers. But we had more high dollar business travelers who have gone by the wayside. 1 full fare coach class ticket was probably worth 3 of these cheap leisure fares you see today. And First Class travelers were the icing on the cake. Now it seems like just a bunch of upgrades in first class who didn't pay anything near first class rate...I hate those people looking all smug like they paid the $2000 fare.

So you hate the customers that are paying YOUR salary.. You'll get far with that attitude pal...

So you're living in the past as well. Sorry. Oh, and Delta, United, and NWA are BANKRUPT !!!! I just find it ridiculous that all you sour grapes people are now moving on from CHQ and Mesa by now naming SWA as the new arch-enemy.

Of course this is the regionals forum where reality has no bearing on any discussion.

 

[Halo_RJdriver]

Dream on

So you hate the customers that are paying YOUR salary.. You'll get far with that attitude pal...

So you're living in the past as well. Sorry. Oh, and Delta, United, and NWA are BANKRUPT !!!! I just find it ridiculous that all you sour grapes people are now moving on from CHQ and Mesa by now naming SWA as the new arch-enemy.

Of course this is the regionals forum where reality has no bearing on any discussion.

SWA has been a LLC Greyhound carrier enemy since day one. Ask any of your bankrupt carrier employees. I am sure no one hates people that are paying money to fly. I dislike the rates they are paying. It's almost 2006. The sky isn't going to fall if SWA and JETBLU keep selling 39.99 fares all year but your salary is going to go down with FARES. Simple economics. Until all airlines take a stand on passing the oil/fuel costs onto customers our Salaries will continue to dive for minimum wage.

 

[pipejockey]

h25, I never said I hate the customers that pay my salary. You and everybody else knows that I meant the attitude these coach class travelers have when they get the upgrade to 1st class. Half of 1st class, which used to be the airlines bread and butter are upgrades from coach. They are not what I would call the "real" first class customers who are actually paying first class fare.

And why is Delta,NWA, and United bankrupt? They have had to lower prices so far to keep from losing their customers to the LCC's they can't earn a profit. Now their employees end up working for rockbottom wages just like the LCC's employees. Wages which you apparently feel are fair huh? And, in addition, if the airlines paid their people a decent wage, then maybe they could hire some educated people with a little class instead of these totally incompetent, rude, hateful, mean-spirited, unhelpful people they have working for them at the airports. I mean it's crazy the attitude from these people anymore. They act as if you are bothering them by expecting them to do their jobs. I have agents flat-out refuse to help me, telling me to go see someone else, in other words, they can't be bothered with helping a customer who pays their wages. The other day I tried to use a self service kiosk to check in, but my company spelled my name wrong when buying my ticket so it wouldn't recognize me. It spit out a receipt telling me to see an agent...HAHAHA. WHAT AGENT!! Hundreds of people waiting in line and only 1 agent checking people in for coach. I try to get her to check me in and she's calling names of other people who have checked in using the kiosks and who need bags checked. I'm like hey, I was in line before all these people you're calling, she tells me to step aside, continuing to call people who were behind me. I said this is BS and put my bag on the scale. She said she refuses to check me in and went to the next computer, I followed and plopped my bag on the scale once again and said we can play this all day or you can check me in, she walked off and someone from first class check in had to come over...professionalism at it's finest huh? And this is only but one incident in the past few weeks. All with AA by the way. Their customer service has been atrocious. But I can't blame the airlines, I blame the traveling public. You get what you pay for!!

 

[CSY Mon]

The legacy carriers got themselves in this mess and have no one else to blame but themselves.

Aye, another Einstein with all the answers and no solutions..

 

[DrewBlows]

Wow has this thread creeped. Here's another off topic post.

To those who are glad to see Comair furloughing...

Consider that those being furloughed are the pilots that have been hired in the past year or so, and dont' have a role in the Comair/ Delta pissing match.

 

[h25b]

Aye, another Einstein with all the answers and no solutions..

Looks like they're using BK to solve one of the problems.... TOO MANY 50 SEAT RJ's... That's one solution... Happy now ?

 

[h25b]

And, in addition, if the airlines paid their people a decent wage, then maybe they could hire some educated people with a little class instead of these totally incompetent, rude, hateful, mean-spirited, unhelpful people they have working for them at the airports. I mean it's crazy the attitude from these people anymore. They act as if you are bothering them by expecting them to do their jobs.

You haven't been spending too much time as a paying passenger then. The best customer service I receive is when traveling Southwest. I can actually afford fully refundable fairs on them and get to changed flights easier that way.

I actually got cursed at from a US Airways employee at DCA for politely asking when they planned on boarding my flight (a freaking MESA RJ I think...)

 

[BenderGonzales]

Respectfully, I do not advocate raising fares simply for the sake of raising fares.

I DO, however, condemn airlines flying at a loss. The Jetblue "shuttle" intro fares of $25 are obscene and predatory.

Ok -- that's all I have to say about THAT. Now... 50 seat RJs:

Regional-jets (for the millionth time) are a HIGH COST PRODUCT.

The cost per seat mile on an RJ is extremely high because there are fewer seats to spread out the cost of the operation.

What makes RJ's appealing to airline management? Labor at the so-called "regionals" is so unbelievably low cost that the CASM is leveraged downward. Even better? These small-jet providers are actually COMPETING for the lift!!!

It's like that TV commercial. "When lenders compete, you get a better deal".

So as I see it there are several seperate and easily identifiable problems here -- and very few actual solutions.

#1. Yields set less than cost
#2. Regional-jet economics
#3. "bid" for flying

Whose fault is it?
#1. Airline managers who are bankers
#2. Airline managers who are bankers
#3. ALPA

Solutions?
Any feasible solution would require a large-scale change in the airline industry. The pilots simply do not have the negotiating capital -- and likely never will again -- to make it occur.

 

[h25b]

Respectfully, I do not advocate raising fares simply for the sake of raising fares.

I DO, however, condemn airlines flying at a loss. The Jetblue "shuttle" intro fares of $25 are obscene and predatory.

Ok -- that's all I have to say about THAT. Now... 50 seat RJs:

Regional-jets (for the millionth time) are a HIGH COST PRODUCT.

The cost per seat mile on an RJ is extremely high because there are fewer seats to spread out the cost of the operation.

What makes RJ's appealing to airline management? Labor at the so-called "regionals" is so unbelievably low cost that the CASM is leveraged downward. Even better? These small-jet providers are actually COMPETING for the lift!!!

It's like that TV commercial. "When lenders compete, you get a better deal".

So as I see it there are several seperate and easily identifiable problems here -- and very few actual solutions.

#1. Yields set less than cost
#2. Regional-jet economics
#3. "bid" for flying

Whose fault is it?
#1. Airline managers who are bankers
#2. Airline managers who are bankers
#3. ALPA

Solutions?
Any feasible solution would require a large-scale change in the airline industry. The pilots simply do not have the negotiating capital -- and likely never will again -- to make it occur.

Why can't they understand that SWA is not flying at a loss with their low fares and therefore have no clue what they're talking about. Like I said, I knew we were in big trouble when I started connecting from one Rj to another RJ... It's called high CASM and they didn't notice that it isn't working out too well for FlyI...

 

[SkyBoy1981]

Why can't they understand that SWA is not flying at a loss with their low fares and therefore have no clue what they're talking about. Like I said, I knew we were in big trouble when I started connecting from one Rj to another RJ... It's called high CASM and they didn't notice that it isn't working out too well for FlyI...

Why can't you understand that this thread is about Comair and you're completely off topic?