Frank Lorenzo had an excuse, he was management

[Redmeat]

Please remind us of that sentiment when you see your underfunded under-supported USAPA trying to fight the company (who by the way sees USAPA for what it is, a management blessing). Will a no-strike clause be the number one negotiating item when contract time comes around? It probably will, because USAPA cannot amass the funds necessary to carry off a strike. On the other side of the coin, suppose an ALPA carrier goes on strike and management orders the pilots to fly struck work or be fired? Will USAPA say privately, "Here's our chance to stick it to ALPA again" but publicly say, "We have to choose our battles and live to fight another day."?

Where USAPA's headed, a submarine sounds like the vessel of choice.

Isn't THAT ALPA's montra as of late?!?!

Sadly I think strikes at airlines are a thing that will only be read about in history books no matter what union represents pilots.

 

[Bringupthebird]

If that's true, by all means, don't waste money on a union who's only influence will be a non-binding recommendation on the scrambled egg design on the hat brim.

The profession you enjoy is the direct result of pilots willing to walk away from it all in an effort to improve the pay and benefits.

 

[waveflyer]

It's true, it is. But when this career was built, airlines weren't under the cost pressures of deregulation and we weren't under the pressure of a castrating rla process that no politician has let us use for some time. Companies didn't use to be able to declare bankruptcy as easily and throw away contracts. I agree that the best way to combat this is with our feet- but who's willing to do that under our current seniority system.

ALPA has negotiated contract after contract that end loads the earnings- making seniority the number one thing financially, on top of the scheduling benefits- Noone is willing to start over at the bottom- b/c the wages are so unlivable there. Solve that problem- in any number of ways- and you'll see leverage return.

 

[Bringupthebird]

double

 

[Bringupthebird]

Huh? When this career was built airlines were restricted from markets they could serve. Delta used to whine incessantly to the CAB about how unfair it was that Eastern could operate on so many routes exclusively. Only certain carriers could operate trans-Altlantic/Pacific. It wasn't appreciably easier back then. But airlines were interested in expanding when the CAB allowed it and were unable to withstand a strike long-term. But the risk of a career during a strike always existed. Now, pilots would rather take a little less and make do with a smaller sailboat, than risk losing it all. It's not because of what anyone will or won't allow you to do, but what you are willing to stand for.

It always has been.

 

[waveflyer]

All those restrictions helped keep prices high and airlines profitable. Making a strike have more leverage. Don't get me wrong- i agree with you- 100%! I just think that if we made it easier to change companies that we'd all have a more flexible and better quality of life- and all would be more willing to walk away when needed. Right now- we are the only employee group that is SO invested in the company. We have more to lose than anyone by a liquidation and so we have been proven to be easy to control in a negotiation. If we knew that first year at the next job was a livable wage- we wouldn't be as concerned... a national list would change the dynamic of our career in every way- and noone to this point has told me why it can't be done-= except w/ an assumption that it would be done in a certain way that is unworkable. No matter what it will take leadership...

 

[PCL_128]

If we knew that first year at the next job was a livable wage- we wouldn't be as concerned... a national list would change the dynamic of our career in every way

You could achieve the same thing by increasing FO pay to more than it currently is. If first year FOs made $85/hr, then people wouldn't be so concerned about starting over at the bottom. And raising FO pay is actually an achievable goal, unlike the NSL idea.

and noone to this point has told me why it can't be done-= except w/ an assumption that it would be done in a certain way that is unworkable.

Show me a way that's workable, and I'll take the idea seriously. Until then, it's just a bunch of fluff.

 

[Lear70]

That's the problem.

I agree there should be a NSL. However, I don't see a viable way to make it happen.

1st obstacle: membership. Show me a way and a reason against EVERY conceivable argument (even the argument of a senior CA) that WILL convince 50+1% at ALL airlines, and I'll be happy to help you push it.

Yes, it will take Leadership. So get out there and LEAD! Just because I can't figure out a reasonable way to make it work and, therefore, won't go fight for something when I don't even have a clear idea of how to do it myself, doesn't mean you can't.

Just because it sounds like the right thing to do, doesn't mean it's realistic. Be happy to hear a concise, well-thought-out plan, nuts and bolts, from A to Z, along with supporting documentation and an implementation schedule.

THAT'S how you get things done. Anything else is just talk.

 

[PCL_128]

I agree there should be a NSL. However, I don't see a viable way to make it happen.

Exactly. We can sit around in a giant NSL circle-jerk, or we can work on real solutions. I'll stick to the real solutions.

 

[waveflyer]

which are, idea man?

- every body protest a bunch w/ no objective or plan in mind?

 

[waveflyer]

OK- Let me repeat- i don't care how it's done- I proposed raising FO pay a long time ago as a viable solution. You trashed it as unworkable- 'How are we going to get the "senior" to see that raising FO pay is important- they'll never go for it...etc etc'
You have a lot of pessimism for the process you expouse so much. Which is why i think you actually promote apathy as much as you rail against it.

This is a web board- it's for discussing and talking about things- Dont' worry about me not doing anything- that hasn't been a problem in my career.

 

[Lear70]

The only way you get f/o pay up is to get pilots willing to take it to the mat for it.

Same goes with a NSL.

The Leadership at any union can push for something hard, but then the pilots have to get behind it.

Personally, I think Leadership should come from National on down to fix the problems that we face. Each carrier may have specific problems, but low wages and work rules are something that EVERYONE wants improved AT ALL CARRIERS.

ALPA should direct the local MEC's accordingly, poll their memberships, see if they agree on the issue and its importance, then direct the MEC's to all bring a minimum level of compensation at certain seniority ranges.

Level the playing field, and force companies to compete on their product, rather than how cheap they can get their labor and, therefore, part of the CASM.

 

[PCL_128]

which are, idea man?

Electing pro-labor politicians to office. Grass roots "work-to-rule" movements during contract negotiations. Increasing ALPA-PAC contributions and participation rates. Raising FO pay. Tightening scope restrictions. Etc... There are plenty of things that can be done. An NSL is not one of them.

 

[PCL_128]

OK- Let me repeat- i don't care how it's done- I proposed raising FO pay a long time ago as a viable solution. You trashed it as unworkable-

Actually, I think you need to go back and look at the end of that thread. It ended with me telling you that you had a viable idea if you could politic it properly. I told you that you should submit a resolution at your next Local Council meeting. Did you do that? Have you even begun work on the resolution?

Dont' worry about me not doing anything- that hasn't been a problem in my career.

Then I'll ask you a fourth time: have you or have you not served in elected office or run for elected office so you can work on these solutions? It's a simple question.

 

[PCL_128]

ALPA should direct the local MEC's accordingly

ALPA National doesn't "direct" MECs on anything. National only provides assistance and resources. Under the current Constitution & Bylaws, National doesn't have the power to direct anything at the local level. Until pilots are willing to cede some control to National, that won't change. The problem is that pilots are control freaks, and they won't budge on allowing National any more power to direct things.