Frank Lorenzo had an excuse, he was management

[Lear70]

ALPA National doesn't "direct" MECs on anything. National only provides assistance and resources. Under the current Constitution & Bylaws, National doesn't have the power to direct anything at the local level. Until pilots are willing to cede some control to National, that won't change. The problem is that pilots are control freaks, and they won't budge on allowing National any more power to direct things.

That's my whole point, National NEEDS to take control.

1. Pilots don't have ANY control to cede. The elect their MEC/LEC leadership, then only get to vote IF they have MEMRAT for EVERYTHING. Even resolutions don't have to be followed, even if you have over 50% of your fellow pilots signed onto the resolution. Otherwise, the MEC/LEC is in control of everything. The only power a pilot group has is to recall their local leadership if they don't like what they're doing.

2. The local MEC/LEC offices are working just for themselves, and depend on National to set policy moving forward as a group; hence, the "taking it back" campaign by Prater. Every pilot and the MEC's look to National. Indeed, the ALPA President has to sign off on EVERY T.A. that's done under ALPA flag (part of the C&BL's).

3. National has gotten fat, dumb, and happy as an organization. It's a bloated bureaucracy these days that needs a larger purpose in life, as it used to in the day where it watched ALL the pilot groups to make sure they ALL forwarded the profession as a WHOLE. They don't do that anymore, and all I hear is "the individual MEC's set their own goals".

If we want to improve EVERYONE'S QOL, we need minimum standards for contracts as they move forward. National needs to exert some control over what is negotiated so that one group of labor isn't sold down the river for another (Senior CA's "eating their young").

I think ALPA can be saved as a union, but it's going to have to reinvent itself. Times have changed, and operating under the model of the 80's is no longer a viable operating stance.

 

[waveflyer]

well said Lear

 

[Turtle21]

That's the problem.

I agree there should be a NSL. However, I don't see a viable way to make it happen.

Easy. We can have one in twenty years. If you have an ATP today then your seniority works the same way it does today for the rest of your carrier. If you get an ATP tomorrow or any day after then that is your seniority date and you will always be stacked by ATP date, even in relation to people who already have their ATP today.

That way no pilot is married to his company or his union. It is all about his years in the profession.

 

[flygirlqt]

That's my whole point, National NEEDS to take control.

1. Pilots don't have ANY control to cede. The elect their MEC/LEC leadership, then only get to vote IF they have MEMRAT for EVERYTHING. Even resolutions don't have to be followed, even if you have over 50% of your fellow pilots signed onto the resolution. Otherwise, the MEC/LEC is in control of everything. The only power a pilot group has is to recall their local leadership if they don't like what they're doing.

2. The local MEC/LEC offices are working just for themselves, and depend on National to set policy moving forward as a group; hence, the "taking it back" campaign by Prater. Every pilot and the MEC's look to National. Indeed, the ALPA President has to sign off on EVERY T.A. that's done under ALPA flag (part of the C&BL's).

3. National has gotten fat, dumb, and happy as an organization. It's a bloated bureaucracy these days that needs a larger purpose in life, as it used to in the day where it watched ALL the pilot groups to make sure they ALL forwarded the profession as a WHOLE. They don't do that anymore, and all I hear is "the individual MEC's set their own goals".

If we want to improve EVERYONE'S QOL, we need minimum standards for contracts as they move forward. National needs to exert some control over what is negotiated so that one group of labor isn't sold down the river for another (Senior CA's "eating their young").

I think ALPA can be saved as a union, but it's going to have to reinvent itself. Times have changed, and operating under the model of the 80's is no longer a viable operating stance.

Very well stated, especially item 3. However I am beginning to think that ALPA has passed the point of no return. The arrogance at the National level will never allow them to actually consider restructuring let alone just face the issue of discontent within the membership.

 

[Redmeat]

3. National has gotten fat, dumb, and happy as an organization. It's a bloated bureaucracy these days that needs a larger purpose in life, as it used to in the day where it watched ALL the pilot groups to make sure they ALL forwarded the profession as a WHOLE. They don't do that anymore, and all I hear is "the individual MEC's set their own goals".

Yep. As a member in good standing, let's address this obvious issue BEFORE we address all others.

I've known this for years as I have com padres that use their ALPA position as a hide-out so they don't have to fly.

Age 65 really torqued my view on ALPA.

If the merger happens I'm sure the largest airline in the world could support it's own pilot union.

 

[Lear70]

Easy. We can have one in twenty years. If you have an ATP today then your seniority works the same way it does today for the rest of your carrier. If you get an ATP tomorrow or any day after then that is your seniority date and you will always be stacked by ATP date, even in relation to people who already have their ATP today.

That way no pilot is married to his company or his union. It is all about his years in the profession.

Cool.

Now get the airlines to put it in EVERY airline contract and include fall-back provisions that REQUIRE the airline to hire a pilot who's lost his job AT HIS SENIORITY LEVEL AND LONGEVITY.

Sure,,, easy.

Again, you can say it's "easy", but until you have a FULL implementation schedule along with solutions for everyone, including airline management, and a way to put it in every contract, it's just talk.

Leadership takes more than ideas, it takes the will to actually commit your time (almost all of your free time most of the time) to actually make those ideas into reality.

If you want change, get up and do it yourself. Come up with the FULL plan, then present it to your MEC as a resolution, and push it through.

THAT'S how things get changed. Without that kind of effort on YOUR part, ideas just come and go...

 

[waveflyer]

That's not fully thought out, but i'm confident that a solution could be had if we lay aside our assumptions of how it might work-and flesh it out.

I've set down several different ways of making it happen- all of which could be benefitted by the minds of leadership who are in a position to make it happen.

An idea is to go by date of first turbine captain/ or military commander job. That first time taking command of an airplane is truly the first validation of ability. Then subtract any years spent not flying for hire, that way an accountant who had a regional career 20 years ago can't come in as a 777 captain.
We could matrix in flight time/heavy experience/large experience/types- in any number of ways to make the most qualified end up on top.
ALPA/APA/and whatever that association of pilot unions is called get together and work out legality/security issues. Then simply as positions open up- they are bid on by seniority. You change companies- you fill out the paperwork- go through indoc again and now your at X company. It adds, what? a week to your training event.
Think of the quality of life issues that are gained- you would be almost assured of being able to fly out of your section of the country no matter what company takes over your home domicile. If the market for pilots increases in your home area- you'll have access to it. No more pilots criss-crossing the skies- commuting to places they dont want to be as their company folded up shop and was replaced by another. You have unlimited flexibility in type of flying available. And now increased leverage in negotiations as we can allow companies that are bad at running airlines to go out of business w/o US bailing them out to protect our seniority. I'm a young guy, i'm not involved in any of the current seniority battles, but it's EVERYWHERE. We need to unify= and frankly, i believe this is the best choice. It CAN, regardless of what pessimists say, be worked out. It will take work- and creativity- and us seeing that the current method hasn't worked for many, many years and being open to change.
Think- if you're a good pilot, do your job well, your seniority will always mean something. That's a huge stress relief in this job. No more being held hostage by a corrupt or inept ceo who is not nearly as attached to the airline he is running as you are. Every pilot takes advantage of the growth in U.S. flying that is coming equally. Just open your mind and think about it. The challenges CAN be worked out. For every challenge- there are two benefits that make it worthwhile.

 

[Turtle21]

Cool.

... but until you have a FULL implementation schedule ..

I gave you the implementation schedule. If you have an ATP today then you live under the seniority system that sucks for the rest of your carrier. If you get an ATP tomorrow then your seniority obviously will always be based on your ATP date, which is always below those that already have an ATP. In twenty years or so nearly everyone will be based on ATP date. Easy.:laugh:

And as far as taking things to my MEC... I don't have one until the 18th of April. :beer:

 

[Lear70]

I know you guys are tongue-in-cheek with the "easy" part, but I'd love to see a real-live implementable NSL plan to push through various MEC's...

You get some time, flesh those ideas out, troubleshoot all the arguments that could come up and put those answers to paper, put it in a resolution, then bring it here.

Let the community help think of what you didn't, finish fleshing it out, and then get a bunch of similar-thinking people on board and you've got a movement...

:beer: