Frank Lorenzo had an excuse, he was management

[Fast43]

Tossing out red herrings about what a union might or might not attempt to do is pointless.

Excuse me!! What Planet have you been on?? usapa has stated themselves more than once what their intentions are.

If anyone casts their vote without basing their decision on what the Constitution and Bylaws support and require, then they are just shooting in the dark.

Even if usapa's bylaws have no basis in reality?

quote]

Fast

 

[Prog 2/2]

Seniority solutions is not the present question before the pilots.

Really?

Somebody better tell the USAPA clowns, quick.

Seems to me that's what's driving the bus.

ALPA has left the building already.

We'll see. Maybe, maybe not. One thing for sure, any pretense that you or your cohorts had at integrity has certainly departed.

Some regard seniority as a union responsibility and there exists a dispute about whether or not ALPA is fit to provide representation.

You were all for their representation, their processes, and their integration methodology, right up until you didn't get your way.

Now the process is "flawed", the methodology "unfair", and the arbitrator "senile".

The present circumstances demonstrate that, if nothing else, ALPA has its limitations.

Lot's of 'em.

But the only thing the present circumstances really demonstrate is your greed, irrationality, and lack of ability to abide by your agreements.


That is why the NMB has ruled there is a dispute.

They counted cards.

They made no other judgment.


Tossing out red herrings about what a union might or might not attempt to do is pointless.

Not in this case.

The only reason USAPA exists is to gut Nicolau, fence the AWA pilots, and attempt a seat-grabbing end run around a federal arbitration decision.

Not one of those predictions are red, or even remotely fishy.



If anyone casts their vote without basing their decision on what the Constitution and Bylaws support and require, then they are just shooting in the dark.

And a large part of the USAPA C&BL are aimed at disenfranchising the west pilots so you can get your lowball, fence riddled contract ratified.



Many people get pulled in by silly emotional arguments and throw tantrums.

Like "Nicolau stapled 15 year US guys behind AWA pilots that weren't even born when they were hired"?

And, my favorite, "seniority matters, so let's decertify ALPA".


Some people get all teary eyed about ALPA nostalgia and choke up at the thought of admitting their heros aren't perfect.

It shouldn't be an emotional issue. If your lawn care service mows down your flower bed you ask him WTF. If he tells you that he will continue mowing down your flower bed because he knows better than you do then you tell him he is mistaken about who works for who in this relationship and you fire him if he is recalcitrant. If he starts throwing rocks through your windows and pouring dirty oil on the lawn then he is vindictive and it will affect his employment with other clients. The more vindictive and hateful they are as they are ushered off your property the more it will affect any future opportunities they may have otherwise had.

No comment on these last two.

If this were a rational, logical argument about the failures of ALPA representation, the crappy position that 2 bankruptcies put your career in, or just a harmless rant, I'd be more than happy to indulge you.

But what you and yours are trying to do isn't noble, it isn't about righting any wrongs, and it isn't even remotely about the failings of ALPA.

All it is, is an attempt to exercise your sense of entitlement on the backs of the west pilots.

 

[Turtle21]

Tossing out red herrings about what a union might or might not attempt to do is pointless.

Excuse me!! What Planet have you been on?? usapa has stated themselves more than once what their intentions are.

If anyone casts their vote without basing their decision on what the Constitution and Bylaws support and require, then they are just shooting in the dark.

Even if usapa's bylaws have no basis in reality?

quote]

Fast

The Constitution and Bylaws are on the ballot. Reality enough. Don't forget to vote.

 

[Bringupthebird]

It shouldn't be an emotional issue. If your lawn care service mows down your flower bed you ask him WTF. If he tells you that he will continue mowing down your flower bed because he knows better than you do then you tell him he is mistaken about who works for who in this relationship and you fire him if he is recalcitrant. .

Thanks for the perfect example of USAir's cavalier attitude. The east pilots on property today never "earned" anything in their contract (like scope, or pensions) so they all to easily give it away. So too, they throw away ALPA and all that it has provided over the years. They pretend to be defending seniority, but the cluster**** that is USAPA will end up screwing that up as well. They will be left with Nicolau intact and implemented, an underfunded and inexperienced union trying to find it's way out of the dry cleaning bag it's playing with and 5000 angry pilots wondering what happened to the promised paradise.

Savor the feeling of victory on April 17 (should the worst-case scenario come to pass) because it's gonna have to last you a while.

 

[waveflyer]

Lear70- I think the assumption that the AAA MEC wasn't doing what the majority of the pilot group wanted needs to be re-examined. I get the sense that their pilot group would have not been satisfied and looked for heads to roll if they got anything but DOH. They are politicians- and after all the rolling over they did for management, politically- could they afford to roll over on the long held AAA belief that mergers should be DOH?

What's ironic is that if it were not for the seniority issue- i'd think many AWA pilots could vote out ALPA.

To beat this to death- what needs to happen again?
50%+1 vote for representation and whoever gets the most votes out of those who voted, wins? So if non-political types abstain- that will benefit the USAPA side who is very motivated to vote? Or is 50%+1 for USAPA needed?

 

[Turtle21]

Thanks for the perfect example of USAir's cavalier attitude. The east pilots on property today never "earned" anything in their contract (like scope, or pensions) so they all to easily give it away. So too, they throw away ALPA and all that it has provided over the years. They pretend to be defending seniority, but the cluster**** that is USAPA will end up screwing that up as well. They will be left with Nicolau intact and implemented, an underfunded and inexperienced union trying to find it's way out of the dry cleaning bag it's playing with and 5000 angry pilots wondering what happened to the promised paradise.

Savor the feeling of victory on April 17 (should the worst-case scenario come to pass) because it's gonna have to last you a while.

I need ALPA like a submarine needs a screen door.

Vote on April 17?

The only thing the USAPA constitution guarantees is the pilot's right to vote. ALPA does not and Prater is more than happy to make that distinction crystal clear just weeks before the election.

I love the man.:beer:

 

[PCL_128]

50%+1 need to vote for any representation (either ALPA or uSAPa, or some other write-in). If that threshold is met, then whichever union has the most votes will be the bargaining agent. I think you're overestimating the motivation on the East side and underestimating the motivation on the West, though. I think you'll find that many East pilots won't really go through with it in the end. The West pilots have extreme motivation to keep the uSAPa rapists out of power, though. In the end, I think it will be extremely close.

 

[waveflyer]

How many new hires actually get to vote?
That's usually a pretty apolitical group in any pilot group.

I hope youre right PCL- But it would go a long way if ALPA national could take some definitive and objective steps toward cleaning up the beauracracy that has developed over time. And re-evaluate it's version of seniority. Is there anyone that only holds one stock? Why anyone- no matter where you are would object to a national list is beyond me- who could be so arrogant as to not want to diversify their risk and careers and type of flying?

I'm against USAPA b/c it goes in the opposite direction of what we need to do. Almost all of our concessions and problems have their root in our self-created seniority system. I agree w/ the above 100%- either get a national list- or go emirates and dump it all together. Right now it's being used against us in every way- and only divides us.

(PCL- i know you disagree- but realize that I don't care- give me another solution or stay quiet.

Thx for the info though.)

 

[PCL_128]

Why anyone- no matter where you are would object to a national list is beyond me- who could be so arrogant as to not want to diversify their risk and careers and type of flying?

It may be "beyond you," but facts are facts. Huge portions of the membership are against an SSL. That creates too big a road block. These SSL fantasies are counter-productive.

 

[waveflyer]

no they aren't
and
where's your solution?
are you denying the problem i laid out exists?
are there, or are there not, many unions who do things much much differently?