For those who quit the regionals...

[atpcliff]

Timing, timing, timing.

After the USAF, I could not get hired at a regional, as I was not qualified (only had my ATP-MEL).

After 10 years of not flying, I was suddenly highly desirable, and was getting phone calls left and right. Got hired at a regional, but furloughed just after my sim check.

Got on at a -121 supplemental (didn't take recall back to the regional, and turned down other offers to go to the supplemental), was laid off, went overseas for 1+ years, and then hired at Atlas.

Atlas is the best job I ever had, and this year (my 2nd) at Atlas I will make the most money I have ever made, including when I was a Capt on flight pay in the USAF.

cliff
GRB

 

[BoDEAN]

Korean Air A330 Capt, and NO REGRETS whatsoever.

I cannot understand why anyone would contemplate more than a few years in a regional airline.

We stay because it's a career

 

[BoDEAN]

Sat behind a desk for a 10+ years, thought I could make my hobby of 15 years another career … looking back I really miss it...going to lunch with coworkers and customers, friends and family, get off when I needed, never missing the kids ball games or Xmas (huge), helping with homework, cookouts with friends, Saturdays at the lake, etc. I’m one of the lucky ones, after 5 years at this airline, working 4 day week typically means I get to see my family about 40% of the time, those that upgraded at 6 years will not see another weekend or vacation in July for another decade because there are to many senior not leaving. Sure you can go to a major and spend the next decade working weekends but that is not for me. Flying is a lonely job with a great deal of liability, lots of shear boredom in the air and in a hotel room. We spend a lot of time away not supporting our families, there is a lot of life that passes us by while we sit earning $1.80/hr in a hotel or airport. Then there is the fact we never do any strategic brain activity, no real decision making, its already planned out in the FOM or OM....we just turn left turn right park.... Do the same thing day in day out. No sense of accomplishment…..320+ hours per month away from base…paid for 75 hours…. this is the life (of a regional pilot). I’m just glad I only spent about $20k to get here….it all depends on what you want in life, living on the road out of a bag or with your family…I see a lot of stressed people that cant get out due to lack of other skills or being financially strapped, way to many broken homes …for me I’m over this, life does have a lot more to offer I’ve seen the other side and the grass was greener.

So what do you do exactly?

 

[SWAdude]

It is different today than twenty years ago. It is very difficult to point out why.

Twenty years ago the airline jobs seemed to be so much more competitive. Delta and Northwest hired almost 100% military. American 95%. United was dealing with affirmative action while Continental was considered a "Scab" airline. America West was a bit easier to get a job and Southwest required that $10,000 type rating for so few jobs available. (It cost 10 grand back then for the type). Others were just going out of business.

The "Regionals"(which they really were regional airlines back then) had higher minimum requirements and were just as competitive their own way to get a job. We flew up to 12 legs a day hand flying Metros or Jetstreams or Bandits of Beech 99s and 1900s etc, etc, etc. We flew over a hundred hours a month (part 135), lived on poverty wages and out of our cars at times. And were having the times of our lives making great friends for our lifetimes. We loved to fly.

Today, its tough to find a happy major pilot (unless you are SWA) and "Regional" pilots appear to be as unhappy about their job as ever. It appears over the past fifteen years it has just gotten worse as time has progressed without ever getting better Even when United got that incredible contract in the late 90's they didn't seem real happy. The "Regionals" have much better equipment and fly less but largely think their dream of flying for the airlines was a huge mistake.

There have always been some carriers with better reputations than others, but what happened?

One variable is the internet. Information and opinions now. Twenty years ago you would have to wait for the FAPA (not the Frontier union but what was before Air Inc) monthly news letter or magazine to see who was hiring what. There were only a couple businesses that offer interview prep and the famous Irv Jazinski who had the interview bible and personalized service. The only opinions were from those around you and the occasional run in from old buds at other airlines.

You read FI, Pprune and your own union forums and it is negative, negative, negative. Often time Masked individuals slinging personal insults on their dead time in hotels or days off when the kids and wife are away. I am as guilty as the next guy with this.

I am thinking that it is the internet that has brought a sense of entitlement to many who wish this business was different. Since the beginning of the industry, there have always been time away from home, missed holidays, football games, weddings and first steps because daddy and now mommy has to put food on the table and a roof over your head. I grew up in a Doctors family and I can say that I saw my father less than most all of us see our kids. Hour for hour we probably earned the same amount of money.

I still love my profession and an advocate for those who share my love for aviation. I do advise them to stay off the boards. I swear it is was taints even the most positive person.

Best of luck to us all.

 

[BRA]

Excellent post. For a while there in the 90's wasn't an upgrade in a Beech 1900 usually only going to people 4000 total time or more?

 

[BoDEAN]

Excellent post. For a while there in the 90's wasn't an upgrade in a Beech 1900 usually only going to people 4000 total time or more?

Sounds in the ballpark.

 

[aa73]

+ 1 SWAdude. Great post.

Unlike most of my AA peers, I still have a blast going to work - but that is my choice. I tend to be a happy person overall - great wife and kids, roof over my head, enough $$$ to pay bills and put some away. I'm 38 years old and holding a Europe line out of JFK on the 75/76, usually 3 on/4 off. I am CONSTANTLY surrounded by pilots at AA who have little black clouds over their heads. Who can blame them? There IS a lot of crap going on here at AA - stalled negotiations, hostile work environment, etc. But I've found that these guys who are constantly miserable have allowed their job/career to define who they are. They also view everything through a tiny little peephole that focuses straight ahead, without looking around and seeing the beautiful things life has to offer them. They don't have much perspective, and forgot where they came from.

I don't define myself by my job/career. I remember where I came from - regional puke myself - and I look around at those who have it way worse than me. I am thankful every day for my family and my good health. This makes me appreciate what I have today. That said - this IN NO WAY will prevent me from striking at AA for an industry leading contract and fighting for the best career for myself and my coworkers. I despise what our management has done to our fine airline and want my payback as well. If they go BK because of that, so be it - I'm done giving.

For those of you who choose to be miserable - there is a way out: prayer, perspective and self-value. Don't define yourselves by what you do for a living. You really will find freedom.

 

[Mud Eagle]

+ 1 SWAdude. Great post.

Unlike most of my AA peers, I still have a blast going to work - but that is my choice. I tend to be a happy person overall - great wife and kids, roof over my head, enough $$$ to pay bills and put some away. I'm 38 years old and holding a Europe line out of JFK on the 75/76, usually 3 on/4 off. I am CONSTANTLY surrounded by pilots at AA who have little black clouds over their heads. Who can blame them? There IS a lot of crap going on here at AA - stalled negotiations, hostile work environment, etc. But I've found that these guys who are constantly miserable have allowed their job/career to define who they are. They also view everything through a tiny little peephole that focuses straight ahead, without looking around and seeing the beautiful things life has to offer them. They don't have much perspective, and forgot where they came from.

I don't define myself by my job/career. I remember where I came from - regional puke myself - and I look around at those who have it way worse than me. I am thankful every day for my family and my good health. This makes me appreciate what I have today. That said - this IN NO WAY will prevent me from striking at AA for an industry leading contract and fighting for the best career for myself and my coworkers. I despise what our management has done to our fine airline and want my payback as well. If they go BK because of that, so be it - I'm done giving.

For those of you who choose to be miserable - there is a way out: prayer, perspective and self-value. Don't define yourselves by what you do for a living. You really will find freedom.

To you, too....+1.

I wish this forum had a "like" or rating system.

 

[fareview]

Left the regional world for the first offer I got after applying for every overseas gig on the planet, even Africa, as I felt the US employers could do what they wanted because of a dearth of supply from the flight schools.

Got interesting overseas gig on a 744 which led to B777 at EK.

Wouldn't dream of giving up what I have now in terms of lifestyle - live in maid, chauffeur to work, great hotels, five bath villa in gated community, first 92k tax free, cash per diem on check in at great hotels, pvt club memberships, quick upgrade, great destinations, six weeks vacay (essentially nine if you work it) etc.

Still cannot understand my buddies who looked at me in horror when I headed overseas to a strange city.

Where are they now? - many still at the regionals wishing they had come but now unable due to family, kids, seniority etc.

Word to the wise - get out of the regionals if you can get heavy time - no matter where it is.

You will never look back - but more importantly you will drink beer in every corner of the earth and and be able to tell your grandkids about a great adventure.

Just do it

good luck

fv

 

[BentOver]

Have never considered leaving aviation....even after 2 furloughs, company BK etc..

(I've tried to do non-flying jobs to get me by while on furlough, but have a hard time responding to an office worker questioning if I have the ability to manage because I don't have experience working for "anycompany.com." as a regional data influence associate..Or whatever position companies create to feel important.)

Did the regional thing, went charter/corporate. Got laid off after '09. Luckily now have the experience to hopefully be competative in the Majors world..

Fareview, you're obviously NOT married.. For alot of us, flying is a way to pay the bills, but wouldn't trade my family for any flying job. Having a kid is by far the most gratifying experience of my life. I've never laughed as much as I do with my 3 yr. old daughter. Each man is different.

 

[fareview]

Have never considered leaving aviation....even after 2 furloughs, company BK etc..

(I've tried to do non-flying jobs to get me by while on furlough, but have a hard time responding to an office worker questioning if I have the ability to manage because I don't have experience working for "anycompany.com." as a regional data influence associate..Or whatever position companies create to feel important.)

Did the regional thing, went charter/corporate. Got laid off after '09. Luckily now have the experience to hopefully be competative in the Majors world..

Fareview, you're obviously NOT married.. For alot of us, flying is a way to pay the bills, but wouldn't trade my family for any flying job. Having a kid is by far the most gratifying experience of my life. I've never laughed as much as I do with my 3 yr. old daughter. Each man is different.

Bent,

Married and I have kids. I just didn't let that create a false barrier for making the leap unlike others - that was my point.

My kids go to an excellent pvt school where their friends are from all over the world. They are in a very rich educational environment. The 4.5 months they are not in school in Dubai every year they are in our vacation home in the US (something one can afford when parents make a good living).

Dont want to let the thread creap - just saying that not everyone gets to make an easy transition from regional to dream job, some do and good on them.

But one thing is for sure, if you stay you will never hit the sweet spot at a regional....so better to go early and roll the dice.

No risk no reward.

fv

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Go to where they are still paying decent money to do the gig I say

 

[BoDEAN]

AA: nice post. Hope AA starts hiring soon!

 

[ApocketA's_145]

educated myself about money and the truth about money, learned about real estate, surrounded myself with the right experience people, asked questions and grew some balls, took all my saved money and invested in mulitple income properties that generate cash flow monthly, property managers runs 3 of them, i run the easiest one... now one ballsy move and im cash flowing $3,900 a month after everything... $390,000 in assets, while using these assets as leverage to purchase cheap properties way below market value fixed them up for quick profits $30,000 range, no debts, no mortage now on my main home, no car payment... looking at house #5 for cash flow investments... all from having balls and once your off the ground and know that leverage is the name of the game you will do fine... miss flying sometimes though

 

[BoDEAN]

A lot of great info in this thread. I've thought about getting my masters and going into real estate but need to see how that industry is holding up given the economy

 

[rod farva]

AA: nice post. Hope AA starts hiring soon!

Don't hold your breath bud.

 

[wt219200]

Don't hold your breath bud.

What a witty comment farva. Have you gone through all the threads from months ago about AA and made similiar comments? I bet you act a lot like your name suggests.

 

[Z_Pilot]

During my furlough, I discovered the hard way that having a degree outside of aviation is actually useless unless you already have 3 to 5 years of experience already in that industry already.

 

[rod farva]

What a witty comment farva. Have you gone through all the threads from months ago about AA and made similiar comments? I bet you act a lot like your name suggests.

Nope. Just a realist. We'll see how it pans out.

 

[jeroom]

Well, your original question was regarding pilots who has migrated from the regionals to other flying adventures... I'll bite. Here's my experience; draw from it what you will...

I always wanted to be an airline guy- I grew up around it- my father and grandfather had flown professionally. I grew up hanging on the airport fence. At age 12 I decided it was what I would do with my life. By 18 I had done my Commercial, Multi, Instrument and CFI. In college I had my own contracting company going and was content earning my CFII and MEI for college credit when luckily, my own experience in professional flying started in college when I became affiliated with a large corporation just as they were considering starting their own flight department. I was "in the right place at the right time" and rode the wave up making good money (45,000ish) while I was going to school and got my ATP and two type ratings out of the deal. We had a three man flight department that allowed me a lot of opportunity to still attend classes during my senior year. But I had always wanted to do scheduled airline flying.. some friends of mine were flying at Chautauqua (this was in 2004) and they encouraged me to turn my stuff in. I did and a few months later got an interview and was placed in the hiring pool... a few months after that I was invited for a class date and so I decided to leave both college and the corporate flying job in favor of -121 flying. That's right- I left a great job and a great education chasing the airline flying life.

I enjoyed the flying and the people I worked with at Chautauqua- it was a wonderful experience. But I missed the pay and QOL I had enjoyed flying in the corporate world. I was sitting on the Republic seniority list in mid-2005 thinking it was purgatory. I didn't see the truth, which was that I was actually pretty lucky and that there were thousands of other pilots trying to get where I was. When I saw a CE-650 taxi by us on the ramp I'd get frustrated thinking that I was typed and had a few hundred hours of PIC in that airplane and COULD be making 70-80k flying that airplane only 200-300 flight hours per year, staying in nice hotels, eating out on the company dime, etc... I also missed the opportunity to fly as PIC and not have to occasionally play "mother may I" with some of the worse Captains out there. But flying at Chautauqua was a lot of fun, I flew my legs and had fun on our overnights. Most of the people I flew with were great pilots and avid professionals. I tried to stay positive about my earning and QOL potential... but commuting on UPS all-night, barely making my bills, working 5 day trips for 20 hours credit and other things really began to burn me out. How can you be positive when PBS keeps putting your bids into denial mode? I digress...

By mid 2007 I could have upgraded to the CRJ fleet but stayed as an FO because I was a commuter and wanted the schedule. I was waiting for a PIC slot on the E-170 fleet in my home-town. When that initial vacancy for that base/seat was awarded, guys that has been with Republic for 6-7 years were too junior to get in on it. It made me really think that I'd have to be at Chautauqua another 4-5 years to make the E170 CA position in my home-town... a dismal thought. Then I got a phone call one day while laying over in Texas.

I got an offer from a charter company in my hometown to interview for a Captain position flying the CE-650. I interviewed and was offered a job starting in the 80k range. Although I wanted to stay in the -121 world and around the -121 environment, I couldn't pass up the opportunity to jump-ahead 5-6 years in relative pay. Not to mention that there would be no more commuting, benefits were going to be significantly better, etc. I made the decision to fly out the remainder of my monthly schedule and then resigned from Republic. This was July 2007. At the time I was #6 F/O in STL out of about 75 First Officers.

At the charter company I immediately liked the pay and benefits. I paid off all my bills, put some money away and started feeling better about my life. The benefits also gave me some piece-of-mind. But the schedule was only marginally improved. Although I didn't have to commute and spend 2 nights away from home in a crash-pad or on my own dime to make 6am reports or midnight block-ins; I did have to answer my phone 16 hours a day "on-call" and pop-up trips were frequent. Out to dinner with the girlfriend? too bad- you've got to come in for an undefined trip. Have plans tomorrow? Oh too bad there too. "get out here as quick as you can for a pop-up trip to Guatemala". No preparation, no packing, no ability to modify your schedule. When they called you had to answer and when they said jump-you asked "how high". A totally different dynamic from the determined schedule and work-rules of the -121 world.

It wasn't much later that they pulled a fast-one on me by displacing me to different equipment.. still as a Captain- still making the same money- but to an airplane I had little to no interest in flying. Again, the people I worked with and flew with were all fun, interesting and avid professionals. We still flew 50-60 hours a month on average (not all that different) and were gone away from home 8-10 nights a month (quite a bit better).

Eventually though- without warning- the charter market took a dive and the charter company one day called me into the office for a meeting. Here I was the lead Captain on the airplane, flying 12-15 days per month and 50-60 hours per month. I felt extremely secure. We were the busiest airplane in the fleet and I was the guy in charge of the airplane on the certificate. But in that meeting they informed me that they were going to have me laid-off because they had lost other aircraft in the fleet and had to find a place for their more senior staff. (i understood the seniority argument). I reluctantly now found myself on the street with no recourse. (couldnt have happened at an airline- they would have had to furlough everyone below me FIRST). But without a union or a contract companies are free to do whatever they need to do without constraint. Whatever their reasoning...

I was sitting on top of several years of -121 and -135 experience, solid flight time, several types and some money in the bank. I felt relatively secure and thought my prospects were good... that was October 2008.

Now here we are in February 2010. The only (professional) flying I've done since my lay-off has been a three month gig with an operator in South Florida. It didn't pan out... after making me pay for my own recurrent (should have never done it), paying all of the companies expenses on my own credit card (don't ever do it) and spending months of my own personal time (trust me- be selfish with your time) they ended up p*ssing off the aircraft owner and the owner instead broke their management agreement with the charter company and sold their jet. It put me back on the street and in an even worse financial position- but I was current/qualified for PIC in the -135 world again. (That doesnt mean D*CK!) Not to mention I had no recourse with these people (who also refused to pay me as agreed) because they threatened to bad-mouth me to any future operator (not good) or hinted at having worse done to me. <gulp!>

Now here is what I've got to show for my jump to where the "grass was greener". I'm absolutely bankrupt, I've lost all my investments, my car, my house, my credit is wrecked and the costs of all the associated hardships is incalculable. There is no outlook for positive recovery anytime soon... I've struggled with significant damage to my self-image and self-worth. I always thought it would be fun to be furloughed/laid-off with recall rights- able to just have 100% time-off for a few years. Reality is a much more sobering situation than what I always dreamed it would be like to be "on the street". I know I am not alone however, and that I am not suffering my fate alone. Thousands of our brother/sister pilots are facing the same -or worse- hardships at the same time. Some find other outlets of their time and are able to lead productive and successful times away from the cockpit- but for those of us who truly belong in the cockpit; no amount of success in sales, professional endeavors or "desk jockey" jobs will suffice.

However, if I had stayed at Republic my seniority would now hold a 17 day ON, 80 hour a month schedule as captain on the e170 in my hometown. I'd be relatively secure, probably financially sound and have good free time and a sense of solid self worth and accomplishment.

My suggestion? Look around you. In this environment don't even attempt a move to another airline or -135/corporate. It is very volatile in this industry now (and always), the smart move is to dig-in and be vigilant to protect what you DO have. I am lucky in that I am still single and do not have to carry the additional burdens of a family and children through this uncertain and trying time of unemployment. I imagine that for those in that situation, the decision to leave aviation behind for good is a much clearer one.

I for one am still hopeful- and if I had the chance today- I'd gladly start somewhere, anywhere at the bottom of the -121 world. Just my .02

I'm not sure if you have the appreciation for what you've built in aviation. I just started another of my own businesses, begrudgingly, and am having to completely renew my development of knowledge in another industry, seek its accreditation and its licenses, build my list of contacts and network within that industry, etc. It's a daunting task and one that is easier said than done!

Alright- flame away!

No flame! And good luck to you man!
I hope your situation will improve very soon!