For those who quit the regionals...

[BoDEAN]

It has been about 3 months since I left the airline gig. I left Horizon to come to Pinnacle as a street captain. I spent about 13 months in the left seat, and then came the downgrade. I couldn't stand the lifestyle and time away from home for a meager 24K a year. I put an app in with Target. Yeah its retail, but I am home every night, the money is good, and my performance determines my future, not my hire date. I haven't missed the flying too much yet. I do feel a sense of disappointment that my career didn't turn out the way I wanted it to. But I am damn lucky and I know there are a lot of people out there dealing with far worse circumstances than me. I believe everything happens for a reason, so I will just go with the flow. I do feel there are challenges switching careers. Many employers look at pilots as a very unique career with a skill set that doesn't translate to other industries. There are however, a few good companies out there that can appreciate what pilots bring to the table. We are very skilled and demonstrate an enormous ability to multi-task and handle many different types of situations without the benefit of time. We demonstrate a tremendous amount of responsibility and have many great leadership skills that have been engraved in our heads from day 1. I have no regrets so far and I am very excited about my new career. Saying I work at Target doesn't sound as good as saying I am an airline pilot, but at the end of the day it sure feels a whole lot better.
Cheers!

What is your job description at Target if you don't mind me asking? Are you store manager?

 

[nyboilermaker]

The FAA did not stop Colgan that's why there are 51 dead.

+1

Had the FAA not allowed these types of operations to run without (>minimal) checks, very low pay (industry-wide) to low time/experience crews, this would not have happened.

 

[BoilerUP]

+1

Had the FAA not allowed these types of operations to run without (>minimal) checks, very low pay (industry-wide) to low time/experience crews, this would not have happened.

Wrong, fellow Boilermaker.

Had the two allegedly professional airline pilots flying that Q been paying attention to their airspeed that night, this would not have happened...regardless of Colgan's faults.

Using your above logic, Great Lakes should have been out of business a decade or more ago after auguring dozens of Beeches in...but that hasn't happened. Why? Because Lakes crews watch their f'in airspeed!!!

Thousands of regional airline flights by more than a dozen carriers are successfully completed each day in spite of each airline's pilot compensation, work rules, POIs or the perceived lack of experience...due to the professionalism and diligence of their flight crews.

In this tragic instance, however, diligence wasn't even hanging on a static wick that night.

 

[kmox29]

+1

Had the FAA not allowed these types of operations to run without (>minimal) checks, very low pay (industry-wide) to low time/experience crews, this would not have happened.

Again, I am amazed at the lack of responsibility displayed here. As I said before in a post, I believe the FAA shares some of the blame for this accident (as evidenced in the NTSB report).

However, to address your post:

I'm not sure what you mean by "minimal checks". In terms of surveillance, the FAA conducted more than the "minimal" checks at Colgan. In terms of training, Colgan conducted the FAA required "minimum" training.

Pay? Seriously? Another post addressed this perfectly. Pay doesn't change basic aerodynamics. I can only assume you are an advocate for a regulated industry. The FAA does not control, or "allow" as you put it, pilot salaries.

Time and experience are not everything. I'll bet at some point in your career, you were glad that the FAA didn't require an ATP for all 121 pilots. Would you like them to put an arbitrary total time minimum on flight crews? How about 2,000 hours?

You might get more experienced pilots at 2,000 hours, or you might get a guy who did another 1,000 hours of pipeline patrol, banner towing, or flying around VFR in his own aircraft.

I think what is most suprising between you and CX880, is that you place no blame at the two properly trained and qualified professionals who were operating the aircraft. 100% their fault? No. But the majority of the blame lies with them. Rest their souls.

 

[mozzer]

I left flying back in 2004, at that time I was single with no girlfriend but I could not stand the life style, being gone for 4/5 days, liviing out of a suit case, heck I even moved up on the senority list pretty fast so I had most weekends and holidays off I was about 14 spots left for me to upgrade.

My main reason for leaving was I did not like the idea of being controlled by a senority list and knowning this is the amount of money I will make each year and my progression in my career is solely based upon when my number comes up. I had a BA in Aviation Management, I left flying and started my own construction company up, started by flipping house (good time then) and then I settled into a painting and drywall company. I like having my own control of my future both on my income and job security.

I am know married with 2 kids and another coming in a month. My wife stays home with my kids I am home everynight, every weekend and every holiday. I always have the opportunity to leave work to go home if someone is sick or needs something. My office is 10 minutes from my house.

There are some negatives as well, I miss the hell out of flying, ecspecially for me flying commercial aircraft with passengers, it was something I always loved. Everytime I see an airplane I stop and watch, I go out of my way when I am driving to just drive by an airport. The one thing when I start to miss flying while looking at the airplane, I remember that those pilots are maybe on day 2 of 4 or finishing a stand up line, but then another part tells me they might be off for the next 7 days too!

Everyone is different and how you will progress after you leave, I was lucky and fell into some good opportunities for me, I still have a goal to go back flying commercial in my fifties when I am financiall stabile, that is my goal not everyones also maybe not realistic, hopefully I can buy my own by then.

I havent been flying since I left as well, time and money has limited me from doing that which is terrible on my part. I still keep my CFI certificates renewed as well.

Good luck in your decision, I know it is a hard one. Lot of non flying people dont realize how hard it is to make, we have a passion for flying, I dont have a passion for construction, but in life priorities change, mine our my family now.

That hurt.

 

[CX880]

Wrong, fellow Boilermaker.

Had the two allegedly professional airline pilots flying that Q been paying attention to their airspeed that night, this would not have happened...regardless of Colgan's faults.

Using your above logic, Great Lakes should have been out of business a decade or more ago after auguring dozens of Beeches in...but that hasn't happened. Why? Because Lakes crews watch their f'in airspeed!!!

Thousands of regional airline flights by more than a dozen carriers are successfully completed each day in spite of each airline's pilot compensation, work rules, POIs or the perceived lack of experience...due to the professionalism and diligence of their flight crews.

In this tragic instance, however, diligence wasn't even hanging on a static wick that night.

Are you saying that crew wanted to die that night?? From the transcript as well as FAA recreationg that crew sounded like two brand new guys on day 2 of sim training. I mean the FO was worse than the CA. Who trained them? And by the way why did they resign a few days later after the crash?? If you watch the pbs special even the FAA inspector that was trying to whistle-blow was convinced that something was going to happen to Colgan due to their operation. You have to look at the bigger picture.

 

[BoilerUP]

Are you saying that crew wanted to die that night??

No, I'm saying the crew didn't pay attention to the #1 thing we're all taught from Day 1 of flight training.

Then they did literally everything incorrectly once the stall protection systems fired.

Failure #1 lead to failure #2, and the two combined resulted in everyone's deaths.

You have to look at the bigger picture.

I do see the big picture - you evidently do not. Like I said in my last post, if compensation and low time/experience crews were THE cause of this accident then Lakes should have crashed more airplanes than their existing fleet because they hire low-time FOs and have low-time captains who hand-fly turboprops in serious winter conditions for an insulting level of pay.

Pay and FAA oversight weren't the causes of this accident - the crew letting the plane get too slow, on approach, in icing conditions, and subsequently screwing the pooch on the recovery was.

I saw the same PBS special you did, and while certain ASI's concerns about Colgan were "overlooked", you and nyb and others need to quit looking for scapegoats in this accident and call it what it was - a gross pilot error on the level of negligence.

 

[CX880]

Time and experience are not everything. I'll bet at some point in your career, you were glad that the FAA didn't require an ATP for all 121 pilots. Would you like them to put an arbitrary total time minimum on flight crews? How about 2,000 hours?

Actually they are everything. You can hope and wish to the lucky stars that the aviation gods have blessed you with Chuck Yeager abilities but for most of us that isn't the case. You need time and experience. I know many low timers that said they had no idea what they were doing in case of an emergency.

 

[CX880]

I do see the big picture - you evidently do not. Like I said in my last post, if compensation and low time/experience crews were THE cause of this accident then Lakes should have crashed more airplanes than their existing fleet because they hire low-time FOs and have low-time captains who hand-fly turboprops in serious winter conditions for an insulting level of pay.

The cause of this crash is:

100 hours of airplane experience for the Captain.
700 hours airplane experience for the FO.
Unsafe scheduling practices of Colgan.
Unsafe Colgan training.
Tired/Fatigued FO due to industry practices, all it takes is one.

By the way GL eliminates pilots that can't fly in training.

 

[JAFI]

So what's the secret if I want the job?

Sent you a PM.

 

[kmox29]

Actually they are everything. You can hope and wish to the lucky stars that the aviation gods have blessed you with Chuck Yeager abilities but for most of us that isn't the case. You need time and experience. I know many low timers that said they had no idea what they were doing in case of an emergency.

CX880, I can't continue the discussion with you. You want to shift all responsibility from the pilots to something, ANYTHING, else.

I've known many low time pilots were were very qualified for the job. I've also known many high time pilots who shouldn't be anywhere near airplanes.

You don't need Chuck Yeager abilities to be a 121 pilot. You do need basic airmanship and professionalism though.

 

[Metro752]

I've read some things in this thread which happened to people who could have easily avoided them if they had listened to advice from old timers, and not had the me first attitude.

I'm dumber now.

 

[Mach92]

Well today is one of those days I enjoy...NASTY WX......ORD-SPI in an ERJ145 , full boat with 50/50 chance we may not get in. SPI 3/4 vis , snow and windy. We shoot a LOC appr to rwy4 and miss, circle to an ILS31 with an 5kt tailwind and gusty. I land and grease it , hearing the pax clapping as we touch down.

With all thats going on with our company ,I still enjoy the heck out of this job. I cant imagine doin anything else.

OK MAV lol

 

[CX880]

CX880, I can't continue the discussion with you. You want to shift all responsibility from the pilots to something, ANYTHING, else.

I've known many low time pilots were were very qualified for the job. I've also known many high time pilots who shouldn't be anywhere near airplanes.

You don't need Chuck Yeager abilities to be a 121 pilot. You do need basic airmanship and professionalism though.

This crash is not about their mistakes. This wasn't the same as those two aa pilots that flew their 757 into the mountain in south america or those comair guys that took off of the wrong runway. Those were simple mistakes. This crash highlighted what is wrong with the entire industry. Everybody is to blame because these two pilots do not control what goes on in the entire industry. The FAA and managment does.

 

[BoilerUP]

Everybody is to blame because these two pilots do not control what goes on in the entire industry.

GMAFB - those two Colgan pilots don't control the industry, but they DID control what went on in that cockpit that fateful evening.

Those two Colgan pilots made the very simple mistake of forgetting to push the power levers up after leveling off from of a descent - a mistake that wasn't caught until airspeed decayed to the point the shaker activated...but had they properly reacted, they'd still be here. Unfortunately, they didn't, and the complete and utter disaster that was their reaction to shaker activation sealed their fate.

I see absolutely no difference between Comair departing the wrong runway and Colgan forgetting to WATCH THEIR AIRSPEED and then doing everything wrong when a simple application of power and the loss of a couple hundred feet of altitude could have saved their asses - both were gross pilot errors that resulted in a significant loss of life.

You keep reaching for scapegoats in this accident, blaming Colgan, the FAA, fatigue rules, compensation structure, etc...blaming everybody but the two professionals who had demonstrated stall recognition and recovery on EVERY. checkride they'd ever taken.

In the Comair accident, folks were playing the fatigue card, and blaming the tower controller, and Jepp for not having updated the chart, LEX for the confusing runway alignment, etc...but just like then, sometimes you've just got to call a spade a spade...

 

[Metro752]

Honestly I am inclined to think CX880 is trying to get a rise out of you.

That's the flightinfo way though.


Mesa sucks.

 

[BoilerUP]

Honestly I am inclined to think CX880 is trying to get a rise out of you.

I think you're right...his is one of the more refined flavors of flamebait on FI though...

 

[kmox29]

Honestly I am inclined to think CX880 is trying to get a rise out of you.

That's the flightinfo way though.

Agreed. I was a little slow on the uptake.

 

[DX Rick]

I'm bartending now and made $105 in tips yesterday working from 11am-3pm. Friday night I made $110 and only worked 6 hours.
So the money and schedule is a hell of a lot better. The college girls who work there are great to look at. They even affectionately refer to me as "The dirty ole man who stares."
Living in the hub of the airline, lots of regional pilots come in and complain about how they hate their companies and looking for anything to get out of the industry.

Do I miss it? Only the flying part, not the company, scheduling or JFK. But now I can afford to rent an airplane to fly around for fun. Oh, and I quit buying all the generic foods at Kroger. This morning I bought ground beef...Grade A! DEEE-LISH!!

 

[no1pilot2000]

When you were first applying for a pilot job at the regional level, what company(s) did you apply to? What regional airline you currentlly work for and why did you choose it over the others?