Flying to Hawaii

[TIS]

They always degenerate into flamefests cuz g-string pilots refuse to admit the deficiencies in their airplane.

People who've never flown Gulfstreams just don't get it! Ask any former Gulfstream pilot about the non-Gulfstream airplane they fly now and the first thing you'll hear in a wistful and longing voice is, "Well, it ain't a Gulfstream."

The reality is that airplanes break. Legacies are no exception. Legacies are new at the moment but that will change. So will the economy in Brasil. That oughtta add some interesting flavor to the DOCs.

I have yet to be grounded in a G in ten years of flyin' 'em. There are only a few things that will do it rock solid. Other than that, the MEL says you can break half the plane and still get it hom from the other side of the world. that's a nice warm fuzzy for me. I don't like having an impaired airplane to fly but fly, it I will if I need to.

TIS

 

[LegacyDriver]

I fly with a guy who is typed in and flown the II, III, and IV as well as the Slowtation X and he expresses no regrets re: leaving the Gulfstream world. He b*tches all the time wanting his X back though--he is some sort of speed freak.

As for the question about KSMO... Zero wind, 25 C, 4800 feet of runway...Legacy is limited to 45000 lbs at takeoff for E TO power.

So, use actual weights or leave behind a little gas, or go earlier in the day. Even leaving some gas behind (15K instead of 15500) you still make TEB easily. FL 410 capability is coming and that will eventually help the range when we get the pressurization software so the gas will not be an issue soon regardless.

 

[xrated]

Wow, a Legacy pilot calling it a "Slowtation X". C.Y. you are a crazy dude! Swift did not buy 50 Legacies, they realized after very lack luster interest, they stuck to their 25 firm orders and let the 25 options slide. They knew a stinker when they saw one! Also, will that thin skinned third world Jet pop if they pump it up any more. FL410 in a regional jet? We've seen what happens when you do that!

 

[LegacyDriver]

What is your source? Minw say Swift bought fifty firm.

Thin-skinned? I think you must be confusing yourself with that tiny G-String landing gear strut. Looks like a pencil. I thought you could land it on a carrier! Not! Legacy gear looks like a telephone pole by comparison.

Time will tell with the airplane. It is not the highest priority on EMB's list these days with the debut of the 170...

 

[TIS]

Okay, a few things here

I fly with a guy who is typed in and flown the II, III, and IV as well as the Slowtation X and he expresses no regrets re: leaving the Gulfstream world.

I never said anything about regret! I just implied that when one thinks of a GIII and the climb at max gross one remembers fondly what real performance is! RR Spey - Britain's equivalent of the J79. Can't beat that!

FL 410 capability is coming and that will eventually help the range when we get the pressurization software so the gas will not be an issue soon regardless.

Uhh, you need software to operate at FL410? That's a problem right there! That you can't go to FL450 is another. I guess you're down there with all the airliners banging around wishing you could go higher. Me? I just go there! No software required! Just a nice source of AC power (but DC'll do - in a pinch).

I think you must be confusing yourself with that tiny G-String landing gear strut. Looks like a pencil. I thought you could land it on a carrier! Not! Legacy gear looks like a telephone pole by comparison.

Umm, let's not forget who designed and originally built that landing gear you seem to think is so wimpy. That would be a GRUMMAN product. That company built more carrier-based aircraft than any other aircraft manufacturer in U.S. history. They didn't call the factory the Bethpage Iron Works for nothing you know! I think that's about enough said about the landing gear, don't you? They work just fine for me.

And one last item. We have the windows. Anyone whose seen 'em knows what I'm talking about. Everyone else has those PUNY girlie-man windows - yawh. There's no view of the world like the one you get from a Gulfstream.

Zero compromise! No one else can say that - PERIOD!

TIS

 

[LegacyDriver]

The software has to do with EICAS warnings and so forth. You can take any EMB to 410 as it is now, but Miss Embraer will yell at you. There is also a mod to the outflow valves.

The original 145 was a 370 max airplane cuz that is what RJs were made for. The Legacy was originally 390. Testing and customer requests got EMB to raise it to 410. The 170 is 410 out of the box.

To get the Legacy to 410 the software needs an update. One disk. Voilla it's done. I believe auto-pressurization schedule information is also involved but don't quote me on it.

Heck you can take a Legacy to 510 if you want, but it wasn't designed to do it and I am sure that eventually you will pop a window out, just like taking a G-IV to 65,000 isn't going to be good for it for long.

 

[501261]

Heck you can take a Legacy to 510 if you want, but it wasn't designed to do it and I am sure that eventually you will pop a window out, just like taking a G-IV to 65,000 isn't going to be good for it for long.

You may have lost some credibility with that statement. Max differential is Max differential whether you’re at FL240 or FL510.

 

[G100driver]

You may have lost some credibility with that statement. Max differential is Max differential whether you’re at FL240 or FL510.

True, but max differental has nothing to do with how high you can fly an airplane.

 

[xrated]

Heck you can take a Legacy to 510 if you want, but it wasn't designed to do it and I am sure that eventually you will pop a window out, just like taking a G-IV to 65,000 isn't going to be good for it for long.

NO WAY IN HELL are you going to get that wing, at that weight, with that engine to FL510. The wing is a budget piece of crap. There is no way the pressure vessel could be pumped up enought to hold a reasonable cabin. Its not strong enough. Now, if you redesigned the wing, put bigger motors on it and then required all on board to wear pressure suits, now you'd have a performer. But now the cost would be approaching 35 million, and we all now how that would work out. Pax in a Gulfstream don't have to wear pressure suits!

 

[Whale Rider]

Hey Xrated,I think they should trade those Legacies in for BBJ's. Got to love those Boeings Baby!

 

[GVFlyer]

I don't know why I do this, it's like watching a train wreck - you want to look away but you just can't...

I fly with a guy who is typed in and flown the II, III, and IV as well as the Slowtation X and he expresses no regrets re: leaving the Gulfstream world.

Sure, that's the normal progression in corporate aviation - most guys want to leave the $125,000 to $350,000 a year Gulfstream world to fly a Legacy for 6 bits.

FL 410 capability is coming and that will eventually help the range when we get the pressurization software so the gas will not be an issue soon regardless.

Right, and Santa's going to bring that pretty, new pressurization package for all the good little Legacy pilots. This excerpt is from the most recent AIN flight review for the Legacy. You will note that the climb performance is pretty dreadful and that at 39,000 feet the Legacy had a 8,100 foot cabin. Old ladies and babies would be cyanotic. For comparison, GV/G550 has a 5,960 foot cabin at 51,000 feet, but I bet if you pumped a Legacy up to the Gulfstream's 10.48 psi cabin differential, it's wings would blow off.


A number of pilots AIN spoke to admit that the Legacy’s service ceiling of 39,000 feet is an issue and centered on their corporate need to fly high for longer periods of time to avoid much of the airline traffic beneath. Embraer’s spokesman said there is no increase in service ceiling currently planned for the Legacy...

...Embraer offered one of its most experienced line pilots, former Airbus and Brasilia captain Marcelo Romanelli, to fly with me ...As a former Brasilia pilot many years ago, I felt right at home walking into the cockpit of the Legacy. Indeed, looking from the airstair door forward, the shape of the old EMB-120 is easy to discern...

...Strakes have been added beneath the rear fuselage and vortillons beneath the leading edge of the wings to increase stability, especially because of the yaw produced by the winglets....

...we put on the Sennheiser noise-canceling headphones that come standard with the Legacy. I was a bit surprised to see headphones in a jet of this size, but I would soon learn they are a valuable asset. Another surprise to me was that the performance information available on the copilot’s MFD must be manually typed into the FADEC. Romanelli told me to expect a first-hour fuel burn of 3,300 pounds at maximum speed, and 2,156 pounds in the second. Long-range-cruise fuel-burn figures are 3,080 pounds for the first hour and 2,068 pounds for the second and a speed of Mach 0.73...

...I brought the thrust levers to the takeoff detent–the Legacy does not have autothrottles...

...We...filed toward Savannah and climbed straight to FL370, an altitude we reached in 23 minutes. Crossing traffic prevented a direct climb to FL390 for almost 10 minutes. Cabin altitude at FL370 was 7,400 feet. An OAT of -51 degrees C produced 462 ktas, with a fuel flow of 1,270 pph per engine...

...I returned to the cockpit as Romanelli finished the climb to FL390 for our speed check. We eventually saw Mach 0.791 with a fuel burn of approximately 1,100 pph per side at an OAT of -57 degrees C. Long-range cruise at this altitude means pulling the speed back to about Mach 0.72. Cabin differential here was 8.0 and gave us an 8,100-foot altitude.


Again, just as a point of reference, a G550, flying M 0.84 at FL490 will burn just 1,200 pph per side while the passengers enjoy a cabin no higher than Denver.

I know to this point you have been completely undetered by overwhelming facts, nor have you realized the absurdity of comparing a Brazilian Embraer EMB-135BJ to a Gulfstream G550, so I doubt now that you will be deflected from your Quixotic task, but just for once, how about comparing the Legacy to something appropriate - something in it's class, like a Canadair RJ.

GV

 

[LegacyDriver]

$125,000 to $350,000 per year? HA HA HA! Now that's funny. Just like the average Legacy pilot makes $95,000 to $135,000 a year. YEAH SURE! HA HA HA! You kill me. Hey, if he was making $350,000 a year and went to work on a Legacy then he musta' had a hell of a good reason. (Laughing so hard my stomach hurts. $350,000 HA HA HA!)

The FL410 certification is reality. They announced it at NBAA just about a month ago.

I have never said the Legacy was a direct competitor to the Gulfstream (though I admit it may sound that way at times) but since you challenged me on it, hey, I'll bite. The airplane is a competitor to the G-String in *SOME* AREAS. It's a split between the Gulfstream and airplanes the next class down (from the Gulfstream). It's going to take some of the price-sensitive folks away from the G-IV and V and some of the size-sensitive folks away from Citations and Challengers. Reliability will cyphon off some old Hawker folks, too.

The plane is not better than every airplane at everything, but it is better than just about everything in at least ONE area. The owner will decide what is most important. If ego is the motivator then by all means buy the Peachjet.

The airplane's fuselage would more than handle 510. That's not even an issue. But it's designed for 50,000 cycles and you won't get that many exceeding the limitations. Again, the airplane was designed to be cycled many many times on short hops. The Legacy is an adaptation of that original ERJ platform and thus has some limitations. But these limitations are not so horrible as to keep it from being a "real business jet" (tm).

Sheesh...

 

[GEXDriver]

You don't get it, do you? Everybody on this board knows that the Legacy is nothing more than a gussied-up Brasilia and is a certifiable POS. You're not going to convince anyone of anything other than that you're delusional. At least you've been rational enough not to try to compare the Legacy to the Global Express...so far.

Out of boredom, I went on the Legacy demonstrator when it came to TEB. It's tinny and you have to stoop over to get to the passenger seats in it's low, narrow cabin. It's easy to see it's nothing more than a thinly disguised regional jet, not a business jet

By making these idiotic posts, all you are doing is insulting the intelligence of corporate pilots flying real corporate airplanes.

You don't get it about pay either, do you? Corporate pilots that fly big airplanes get big pay. By the time you count everything, I make over 200k and I'm nothing special. Everybody knows a couple of departments flying big iron, like AIG, where the senior guy is making over 300k.

The FL410 certification is reality. They announced it at NBAA just about a month ago.

So what? You'll still be down there with the other airliners. And if that flight test that GV posted is halfway accurate, if you struggle long enough to get up to 410, you'll be so slow that you'll only be a roadblock to real corporate airplanes. Most traffic at FL410 does .82 or better.

The plane is not better than every airplane at everything, but it is better than just about everything in at least ONE area.

Okay, I'll bite, how is it better than a Gulfstream?...than a Global...than a Falcon 2000EX EASy?

The owner will decide what is most important. If ego is the motivator then by all means buy the Peachjet.

We have a Gulfstream as well as Falcons and the Global. We chose these airplanes for performance, reliability and safety, the same reasons we would never consider a Legacy.

The airplane's fuselage would more than handle 510. That's not even an issue.

And you're basing this on what?

But it's designed for 50,000 cycles and you won't get that many exceeding the limitations.

Professional pilots don't exceed limitations. In past posts you've suggested that you've had the legacy up to 41,000 feet, that's 2000 feet above it's legal ceiling. What are you saying? That in order to get anything like real performance out of the Legacy you have to exceed it's limitations?

Again, the airplane was designed to be cycled many many times on short hops. The Legacy is an adaptation of that original ERJ platform and thus has some limitations. But these limitations are not so horrible as to keep it from being a "real business jet" (tm).

Yes, yes, we all know it's a regional airliner, that's what we've been trying to tell you all along.

Sheesh..

 

[LegacyDriver]

What does Legaco better?

1) Acquisition Cost - a 30 million dollar jet for 21 million (the econmy of scale in the RJ absorbed the difference) is way cheaper than the jets you cite.
--

2) DOC - it is cheaper to operate by an order of magnitude.
--

3) Reliability - the Legacy is the most reliable jet in the world and if you think otherwise you are a complete fool! This is a 99.5 percent dispatch rate unadjusted! (Not Cessna or Gulfstream BS reliability where 80 is 99.5). In four years and over 2000 cycles I have aborted ZERO missions.
--

4) Adaptability - short haul mondo cycle or long haul coast-to-coast / NY to London the Legacy doesn't care and its economics remain the same--the lowest.

5) Baggage Space - Nuff said.

6) Cockpit Ergonomics - Nothing touches it that I have seen short of the EMB-170.

Other bs on your part...

The airplane doesn't go to 510 and doesn't use a 12 psid cabin for a reason: docs! Higher pressure is more fatigue, more inspections, more mx, lower reliability and higher costs! The plane was made to be reliable. FL450 is not going to help the bottom line so it is not included. Max diff is an artificial limit just as .80 is!

You musta' flown the Legacy I not the II. I am doing 1500 fpm at 38000 without breaking a sweat. I do not know what crack pipe you were smoking. I have also never gone to 410 but I know the plane can do it by looking at my diff. At 390 I am nowhere near 8.3 psid. Obviously EMB felt the added pressure would not raise the doc of the airplane.

Grow up ppl and quit bashing the plane. You don't know what you are talking about.

 

[HMR]

Anyone have Boeing Winds for California to Hawaii?

C'mon guys, a few more Gulfstream vs. Legacy posts and I'm claiming the most hijacked thread prize.

 

[saviboy]

Hi guys,

I was reading those interesting posts about the legacy and the gulfstream. I read a couple of comparisons to challenger and citation jets.
Could somebody tell me how the falcon jets compare to the other Corporate jets.
Thanks

 

[GVFlyer]

C'mon guys, a few more Gulfstream vs. Legacy posts and I'm claiming the most hijacked thread prize.

I think the last one was a Legacy versus the Global Express, but I'm not sure.

 

[G100driver]

Hi guys,

I was reading those interesting posts about the legacy and the gulfstream. I read a couple of comparisons to challenger and citation jets.
Could somebody tell me how the falcon jets compare to the other Corporate jets.
Thanks

Gotta be a joke

 

[fokkerjet]

F100cj

Could somebody tell me how the falcon jets compare to the other Corporate jets.
Thanks

Dutch built airplanes rule over French built airplanes

Why would anyone want a Falcon when you can get yourself a nice F100CJ for half the price?

 

[GVFlyer]

Everybody knows a couple of departments flying big iron, like AIG, where the senior guy is making over 300k.

I was thinking of SAH East Coast and H&S Air where Gulfstream comp. is north of 350k.

GV