Flying to Hawaii

[GVFlyer]

It's a strange day when I find myself coming to the defence of a Global Express operator...

(in response to GEXDriver) What does Legaco better?

1) Acquisition Cost - a 30 million dollar jet for 21 million (the econmy of scale in the RJ absorbed the difference) is way cheaper than the jets you cite.
--

The Jungle Jet costs $21 mil because the Barbie Jet costs 21 mil.

You keep harping on the expense of owning a Gulfstream without really knowing what you're talking about. Let's review the concept of retained value again, this time with a few examples. GIV serial number 1280 is currently under contract for $21.75 million. In 1995 it sold new for $24 million, thus it cost them only $2.25 million to own the airplane for just under 10 years. To put this in perspective the average GIV lease is $200,000 a month or $2.4 million a year. Even in the recent recessionary period, Gulfstreams have faired well. S/N 1422 which sold for just over $30 million in 2001 will sell for $26 million and 1470 which sold for slightly under $32 million in early 2002 sold for 28 million in mid-2004. You can see that direct operating costs only tell a part of the story, you must also factor in how quickly your Legacy is losing value.

2) DOC - it is cheaper to operate by an order of magnitude.
--

First a little math refresher - reducing a quantity by one order of magnitude is the same as multiplying it by 0.1. Thus for your statement to be true, the DOC for the Legacy would have to be $191.20/hr. The actual Direct Operating Costs are:

Embraer Legacy - $1615/hr

Gulfstream G550 - $1912/hr

(Conklin and DeDecker, Fall 2004)

Remember the G550 is a 91,000 pound jet and the Legacy is limited to 49,604. Based on weight and operating cost which airplane is more efficient? The G550 is moving 55% more airplane for a DOC that is only 18.5% greater. At the Legacy's efficiency level, if it weighed 91,000 pounds it would cost $2495/hr to operate.

3) Reliability - the Legacy is the most reliable jet in the world and if you think otherwise you are a complete fool! This is a 99.5 percent dispatch rate unadjusted! (Not Cessna or Gulfstream BS reliability where 80 is 99.5). In four years and over 2000 cycles I have aborted ZERO missions.
- -

Gulfstream Dispatch Reliability (NBAA)

GIV/G300/G400 - 99.85%

GV/G550 - 99.75%

Your experience in the Legacy is anecdotal and probably apocryphal.

Again I ask you for the source of your Legacy dispatch reliability statistics.

4) Adaptability - short haul mondo cycle or long haul coast-to-coast / NY to London the Legacy doesn't care and its economics remain the same--the lowest.

From the Embraer Legacy press release, "From London, the Legacy can make New York City if the winds are only slightly lighter than normal..."

5) Baggage Space - Nuff said.

The 240 cu. ft. baggage area on the Legacy is a holdover from the Legacy's true purpose as a regional airliner when it was required to hold bags for 50 passengers and is a waste of cabin space on an aircraft that already has a small cabin. Gulfstream was able to increase the size of the G550's baggage area, which is accessable in flight, to 226 cu. ft. for it's 14 passengers (certificated to 19 plus 3 crew) by using conformal tanks for the vacuum lav and water systems without diminishing the size of the cabin.

6) Cockpit Ergonomics - Nothing touches it that I have seen short of the EMB-170.

Have you actually been on a G550, a Global, a CL604, a Falcon 900Ex, or a Falcon 2000EX? All have quieter, more spacious, better conceived cockpits than the Legacy.

Other bs on your part...

The airplane doesn't go to 510 and doesn't use a 12 psid cabin for a reason: docs! Higher pressure is more fatigue, more inspections, more mx, lower reliability and higher costs!

If this is true, why is the Gulfstream proportionally less expensive to operate and offer better reliability rates?

The reason the Legacy doesn't go to FL510 is because it has neither the wing nor the thrust for it. The Spanish Gamesa wing is a collection of aerodynamic kludges, but at least it is not made in a third world country as is the rest of the Legacy.

The plane was made to be reliable. FL450 is not going to help the bottom line so it is not included.

That's simply not true. The reason I can go M0.83-84 at FL490 at about the same fuel burns you get at M .80 at FL390 is because I can go to FL490. The higher I go the less my specific fuel consumption is.

Max diff is an artificial limit just as .80 is!

Max differential is a structural limit determined during development; Mmo is a FAR Part 25 limit derived from flight test.

I have also never gone to 410 but I know the plane can do it by looking at my diff. At 390 I am nowhere near 8.3 psid. Obviously EMB felt the added pressure would not raise the doc of the airplane.

PSID goes up according to a pressurization schedule until max PSID is reached; thereafter PSID does not go up as you climb, cabin altitude does. That's why at 8.0 PSID your Legacy has a 7400 cabin at FL370, an 8100 foot cabin at FL390 and would have an 8800 ft. cabin at FL410. Gulfstream has T-Category records for going above FL550 in the GIV and FL530 in the GV. On these flights cabin PSID regulated at 9.88 for the GIV and 10.48 for the GV, the same as if they were at their normal Max altitudes of FL450 and FL510 respectively.

GV

 

[capt_zman]

Great post GV. Finally, a non-emotional, fact-oriented debate.

Breakdown of ludicrous claims:
1. "FL450 is not going to help the bottom line"
If you were able to get this high, you'd understand exactly how the bottom line was helped.

2. "Max diff is an artificial limit"
This is just plain retarded.

3. "Cockpit Ergonomics - Nothing touches it that I have seen short of the EMB-170."
Have you ever been in the cockpit for a leg over 4 hours? Once you have, you'll understand.

4. "Heck you can take a Legacy to 510 if you want"
Again, just plain retarded.

5. Economics
It's easy to bash a Gulfstream for acquisition and operating costs, but when you factor in all the variables and intangibles, you'll see that the product is simply superior.

This thread is an example of David vs. Goliath, and Davey boy ain't winning this one.

 

[501261]

Have you noticed our friend Legacy Driver has been pretty quiet since the issue of pay came up?

Does that mean that he’s flying a

real corporate jet

for RJ wages ?

 

[mmmdonut]

Ugg.... I like my EMB, but............


1. 7.8psi differential sucks (Gulfstream wins)
2. M.80 flying sucks (Gulfstream wins)
3. The APU is a POS and you know it
4. Electric hyd pump whine: Always taxi w/ both engines.
5. Pack noise
6. FD leaves much to be desired when using LNAV for lateral guidance
(wing rock and such)
7. Wind noise is really annoying


Let's just say if I had the money, I'd hire a G-V

 

[SkyGirl]

LegacyDriver

Awesome post, GV! But, do you sometimes get the feeling that you're arguing with some kid who just got a Legacy module for his Microsoft Flight Simulator program?

-SkyGirl-

 

[bigD]

Awesome post, GV! But, do you sometimes get the feeling that you're arguing with some kid who just got a Legacy module for his Microsoft Flight Simulator program?
-SkyGirl-

I have that module! It can be downloaded at www.suckasscorporateaircraft.com.

 

[LegacyDriver]

I am arguing with morons it is clear.

First of all, the Legacy cabin has a stated max diff of 8.3 psi. This limit is artificial. The airplane was tested to withstand pressures greater than those required by certification. 8.3 was chosen for reasons of cost not strength.

Secondly, the Legacy was tested to beyond .92 Mach, making 0.80 an artificial limit (with a .92 test Mmo could be raised). Raising Mmo is not something Embraer is going to do right now but it could if it chose to.

The cockpit is only slightly louder than the F2000 and each airplane off the line is quieter than its predecessor (yes they continue to make it quieter) so what's your point? This is not the RJ in terms of noise. As for comfort, I did 5:30 yesterday non-stop and feel just fine. The cockpit is huge and the panel configurationis awesome.

Stop reading from dated articles. We go NY to London and back ROUTINELY and even with headwinds we have gas to spare. Engineering only quotes 2.5 percent improvement in perf but I say we are getting closer to 7. The plane outperforms in every category what the books says by a significant margin.

Why would I ever trust someone who quotes NBAA stats? NBAA is so full of crap it defies description. By their definition Legacy pilots should make 110K a year. Considering I know 90 percent of the Legacy drivers in the USA I think it is safe to say nbaa is full of crap.


Keep living in your fantasy world. I will enjoy seeing your broke d*ck peachjet in the MX hangar as I taxi by.

Parlaying with fools is a lost cause.

 

[mmmdonut]

By their definition Legacy pilots should make 110K a year.

lol... I make 20k and I get to fly the XR... my ass is numb after 1 hour btw.. maybe the Legacy has better seats.

Hey man, I love that plane, but it has a few shortcomings.

 

[LegacyDriver]

BTW we never reduced cabin space for baggage in the Legacy. Anyone who compares the any 145 series airplane cockpit unfavorably to any Canadair cockpit (the CRJ 700 is their best and it is inferior) has no credibility at all. The 604 cockpit positively sucks.

 

[xrated]

Hey Legacy, is that you C.Y.?

 

[501261]

Why would I ever trust someone who quotes NBAA stats? NBAA is so full of crap it defies description. By their definition Legacy pilots should make 110K a year. Considering I know 90 percent of the Legacy drivers in the USA I think it is safe to say nbaa is full of crap.

For once I agree with you, but a lot of us think the NBAA numbers are skewered too low. Welcome to the corporate world!

 

[bigD]

Question: if the Legacy has been tested for a higher max diff, or at speeds beyond .92, why would the company intentionally set the limitations so much lower? You mention cost reasons - how does setting the limitations lower help with costs? This is an honest question - I don't know the answer.

It seems to me that this is all a moot point anyway. Max diff in the Legacy is 8.3. Period. Who cares if it can do more? The fact that it might handle more doesn't help your guys in the back who are suffering in a 9000 foot cabin. Perhaps future Legacies will be better, but we're comparing existing airframes, right?

 

[GVFlyer]

Awesome post, GV! But, do you sometimes get the feeling that you're arguing with some kid who just got a Legacy module for his Microsoft Flight Simulator program?

-SkyGirl-

Yes.

GV

 

[AA717driver]

Here's the real deal-breaker: How many bizjet pilots out there have to wear David Clarks cause the COCKPIT IS SO **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ED NOISY? (shouting because LD is probably deaf from the wind noise)

BTW, the other night, we took 5:40 and burned 14k in gas to go from EWR to LAX with 120 kt headwinds till we got to ALS. We had to slow down to M.83 so we could climb to FL470 over MCI. This thing is a beast! TC

 

[GVFlyer]

I am arguing with morons it is clear.

First of all, the Legacy cabin has a stated max diff of 8.3 psi. This limit is artificial. The airplane was tested to withstand pressures greater than those required by certification. 8.3 was chosen for reasons of cost not strength.

I expect a check for all the instruction I have been giving you. You have finally blundered into an area that I know far better than I want to after successive certification programs on the GV, the G550 and the G450.

Aircraft are certified to a standard and that standard becomes a limitation. Airframers are very reluctant to redo any portion of the certification process for an aircraft that has earned a type certificate because to do so is very expensive. In the case of pressurization, the standards are much higher for aircraft that fly above 45,000 feet than for those that fly at and below that altitude. This excerpt is from the regulation that establishes certification requirements for transport category aircraft (emphasis added):

Sec. 25.365 - Pressurized compartment loads.

For airplanes with one or more pressurized compartments the following apply:

(a) The airplane structure must be strong enough to withstand the flight loads combined with pressure differential loads from zero up to the maximum relief valve setting.

(b) The external pressure distribution in flight, and stress concentrations and fatigue effects must be accounted for.

(c) If landings may be made with the compartment pressurized, landing loads must be combined with pressure differential loads from zero up to the maximum allowed during landing.

(d) The airplane structure must be designed to be able to withstand the pressure differential loads corresponding to the maximum relief valve setting multiplied by a factor of 1.33 for airplanes to be approved for operation to 45,000 feet or by a factor of 1.67 for airplanes to be approved for operation above 45,000 feet, omitting other loads.

Tell me again how the Legacy will climb to 51,000 feet.

Secondly, the Legacy was tested to beyond .92 Mach, making 0.80 an artificial limit (with a .92 test Mmo could be raised). Raising Mmo is not something Embraer is going to do right now but it could if it chose to.

A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing. Yes, in fact the EMB-135 was flown to M 0.92. I know this because the FAA's Atlanta Certification Office certified the aircraft; they are same group who does certification for Gulfstream. As a matter of fact, much of Embraer's certification was done from Gulfstream's ramp. The FAA test pilots would come up to the Customer Lounge right in front of Gulfstream Flight Test to debrief the flights with the Embraer test pilots and flight test engineers. I know how they established limit speed and I'll tell you how it was done, but first we have to look at the regulation again, this time to learn about aeroelastic stability requirements:


Sec. 25.629 - Aeroelastic stability requirements.

(a) General. The aeroelastic stability evaluations required under this section include flutter, divergence, control reversal and any undue loss of stability and control as a result of structural deformation. The aeroelastic evaluation must include whirl modes associated with any propeller or rotating device that contributes significant dynamic forces. Compliance with this section must be shown by analyses, wind tunnel tests, ground vibration tests, flight tests, or other means found necessary by the Administrator.

(b) Aeroelastic stability envelopes. The airplane must be designed to be free from aeroelastic instability for all configurations and design conditions within the aeroelastic stability envelopes as follows:

(1) For normal conditions without failures, malfunctions, or adverse conditions, all combinations of altitudes and speeds encompassed by the VD/MD versus altitude envelope enlarged at all points by an increase of 15 percent in equivalent airspeed at both constant Mach number and constant altitude. In addition, a proper margin of stability must exist at all speeds up to VD/MD and, there must be no large and rapid reduction in stability as VD/MD is approached. The enlarged envelope may be limited to Mach 1.0 when MD is less than 1.0 at all design altitudes...

What's key here is that 15% speed margin increase required by paragragh B.(1). The FAA test pilots encountered elevator flutter in the unboosted elevator flight controls at M 0.92. Flutter is dangerous because it is a destructive mode. Test pilots at the Big G get a bonus for doing flutter testing, even though no one has actually encountered flutter during a Gulfstream Developmental Test and Certification program. But, here's how the M0.80 was established. You must have a 15% margin between constant Mach number and flutter. Watch this: M 0.80 X 1.15 (a 15% increase)=M 0.92 - the speed at which the FAA guys (and a gal named Carla) scared themselves!

The plane outperforms in every category what the books says by a significant margin.

Extremely unlikely. The only certified data in your Aircraft Flight Manual is takeoff and landing data. Cruise manual data need only be, "representative of a test article in the test program." What this normally means is that cruise manual numbers are derived from flights in uncompleted,"green" aircraft during the Function and Reliability testing part of certification and are thus wildly optimistic. Gulfstream and Boeing are the only manufacturers that print conservative figures in their cruise manuals. For instance, Gulfstream knew that the GV would fly 6500 nm, because they had repeatedly flown ballasted GV's in excess of 6700 nm during F&R testing. The record for these flights belongs to Ron N, a former 89th Squadron guy, at 14 hours 47 minutes and 6774 nm at M 0.80. The G550 was flown over 6900 wind adjusted nautical miles during F&R testing.

Why would I ever trust someone who quotes NBAA stats?

Well, I didn't think you would believe me if I sent you to the Gulfstream Customer Website, either.

NBAA is so full of crap it defies description. By their definition Legacy pilots should make 110K a year. Considering I know 90 percent of the Legacy drivers in the USA I think it is safe to say nbaa is full of crap.

I agree, I think NBAA pilot compensation numbers are too low to be accurate.

Keep living in your fantasy world. I will enjoy seeing your broke d*ck peachjet in the MX hangar as I taxi by.

Statistically, it is much more likely to occur the other way round.

Parlaying with fools is a lost cause.

Yes, I know, but I feel a social responsibility to help educate the junior birdmen in our aviation community, so I stick with you.

GV










.

 

[fokkerjet]

GVFlier

I knew there was a benefit in trashing Gulfstream's........free education

He!!, if LD won't cough up any cash, I will....just reading your responses is worth something!

 

[capt_zman]

I don't think I've seen a spanking like this is quite some time. Not bad for a moron

 

[mmmdonut]

Hey.... if you accidentally let go of the Gulfstream tiller, does the nosewheel snap back to 0 degrees?


Just wondering....

 

[suen1843]

Hey.... if you accidentally let go of the Gulfstream tiller, does the nosewheel snap back to 0 degrees?


Just wondering....

Gulfstream pilots NEVER do anything accidentally !!!

 

[LegacyDriver]

A company can certify a jet below what it would qualify for folks. If your mmo is .83 you fly at .83 and burn gas. I am sure EMB initially restricted speed to .78 on the RJ for efficiency and this is a carryover. My understanding is the airplane was tested in Brazil beyond (BEYOND as I stated previously) .92 M and the did not get flutter. They got Mach buffeting but not flutter (and I am under the impression they are not the same thing though you will surely correct me).

8.3 diff is the stated max psid. Again, this is a conservative limit placed on the plane by EMB just as the original limit on the ERJ was (on the ERJ 8.3 was called OVERPRESSURE not max diff--max diff on the RJ w/the same tube was 7.8 or 8.1...been awhile).

As for all the rest:

DC headsets - don't see anyone wearing those in the Legacy. This airplane is significantly quieter than the ERJ. New windows, no wipers, sound insulation...

Hyd pump whine - taxi on engine 1 and leave pump 2 off. Big deal (no whine in the Legacy like the RJ any way). Have you people ever even seen a Legacy II????????

Embraer is also very conservative with its numbers. The plane outperforms the book in every category and operators are discovering that every time they fly it.

I know there is more but my head hurts.

It is a fine airplane. Those who trash it are ignorant or have the ulterior motive of perpetuating bad info to keep this plane from being a success. Else why would you continue to quote outdated articles?