Flying for a living

[svcta]

Quoting you? Say what?

What exactly are aviators at "that level" going to see to? Keeping the RJ airframe out of mainline routes? Effectively limiting the scope of RJ operations? Protecting retirements? Keeping longhaul crews properly backed up? I'll ask again: How's compass going to treat you and your buddies? Is that something that aviators at your level are going to see to? That it takes 15 years to get to your level so you will have proven your worth while living a terrible lifestyle at the expense of your family or personal life? Don't ever get laid off, cause this industry will see to it that you're only hired back in to a sham "d" pay scale. This is what you've seen to.

I don't see pilots at your echelon doing a bang up job of protecting much.

Say what you will, but the main difference with me and just about all of the people who complain about the airline business these days is that I took it one step farther and actually did something about it: quit and found a real job.

 

[mac36]

How do you guys/gals that fly professionally like it? I have my private certificate with about 150tt and have been considering going pro. I work as a loan officer right now and it's the same old routine day after day. I think about aviation constantly and sit out at Lambert all the time listening to my scanner wishing I was in front of one of those jets. Does flying ever get old to you folks after you've been doing it for a while? In other words if you had it to do over again would you have done the same thing?

Thanks!

I soloed in 1974. From my first flight, my goal was to be a line pilot with what we now call a "legacy carrier".

I pulled that off, and am lucky to have never been furloughed.

I still love the job. I will take a day off over a day at work given a choice, but I wouldn't want to do anything else.

The money isn't what it once was, the schedules are worse, but I still feel I have it better than most non-pilots that I know.

I still live in the small Indiana town where I grew up, thus, I have lifelong friends employed in every conceivable profession and trade. The ones who make money comparable to mine are generally self employed and work far harder and longer than I do.

My wife worked for 15 years in IT and spent 50-80 hours a week in a cubicle making about $80K. I once visited her office (more of an airplane hangar sized room with what seemed like acres of cubicles) and offended a bunch of her co-workers by proclaiming "Id rather mow grass for a living than work in here".

In the brief paragraph you wrote, I heard no mention of money. If you love to fly. You'll be fine.

Oh, and I really hate to mow grass.

 

[svcta]

I honestly, as in deep down inside, you know, in my icky stuff, feel that telling people that a love of flying will get them by in the "new" airline industry is reckless. In the decades before 2001 that may have gotten one by, mainly because there was a clear path to what became the "legacy" carriers. Now there is just not. People are making careers at "regionals" and topping out well below 6 figures and still dealing with reserve, flowback, furloughs, 20 day/month scheds, playing absentee dad/mom, missing holidays, crappy hotels, and the one good trip every now and then that makes us remember that flying is still cool. Well cool is great but it never paid my bills or provided for my family.

It's going to take a lot more than a love of the game to survive in the new world. And we aren't seeing pay rates shooting up any time soon down in the trenches.

It was said earlier: Keep your eyes open. It hasn't yet been said :Think with your brain, following your heart in this business will not get you where it used to.

 

[mac36]

In the decades before 2001 that may have gotten one by, mainly because there was a clear path to what became the "legacy" carriers.

If you really believe that to have been true in the "decades" prior to 2001, you no doubt missed a substantial portion of those "decades".

The facts........

Many years prior to deregulation, the airlines were something of a closed shop. There was an unusual time around the mid 60s when stories were told about low timers being hired at "the majors".

If you weren't ex-military, you were less likely to get hired.

For many years prior to the mid-eighties your chances of being hired were almost non-existant after you turned 30. If you were the wrong age at the wrong time or had a civilian background there was no path, certainly no clear one, to the majors.

Furloughs were commonplace for much of the 70s and early 80s (remember the PATCO strike?).

The regionals (used to be called commuters) were just beginning to be ligitimate code sharing entities with interline baggage and ticketing in the late 70s.

There were far fewer "commuter" pilot seats than major airline seats. What ones existed were hard to get. Many, many commuter captains were retired military. Upgrades at the commuters happened in years, not months.

Most commuter aircraft were small turboprops, Beech 99s, Metroliners, Twin Otters.

When I flew Beech 99s, United was our biggest major airline and had about 6000 pilots as I recall. 800 or so of those pilots hit the street in the wake of PATCO strike. Large numbers of pilots were furloughed from multiple carriers.

When Braniff went out of business, it dumped 2000 pilots + on top of all those already furloughed. With thousands of pilots on the street with extensive 121 experience, I didn't think there was any way in hell that I'd ever get a job at a major. Three years later, I was sitting at the flight engineers panel of a 727. Twenty five years later, I'm sitting in the left seat of a Boeing.

Like I said. If you REALLY love it. Do it.

If I hadn't been hired at a major, I'd still be flying.

 

[svcta]

You're absolutely right about the marketplace in the past.

Many of the guys running corporate flight departments these days are the guys who couldn't get picked up by the airlines in those days. That kind of spawns SOME of the anti-airline sentiment over here.

But look at the growth of the regionals. They've gone from "commuter" airlines to some sort of code sharing entity, yes, but the culture hasn't changed at all from a management standpoint. They're operating larger fleet sizes and jets in some cases, but they are painted in to the corner of not being able to(or just unwillingness to) promote a good work environment with happy employees and the spoils thereof.

The reasons for this are largely immaterial becuase the fact of the matter is that it is not changing. And with the "legacy" carriers holding the purses for most of these gowing regional carriers there is no indication that any of it will change for a long time. It will take decades yet to come to ratchet the quality of life up at the regional level, and I don't know why anyone would want to sacrifice so many years of their life waiting on the good days to arrive. Sacrifice is (and was)one thing when it was for a year or two. But 10 years? 15? 20? How much is too much? I know that's a personal choice. The airline industry is all name brand anymore and that only means that mainline operators will continue to grow the regional fleet(both in numbers and size of a/c) and just operate them as some payscale named after a late letter of the alphabet.

There will be pilots hired by majors, of course, but look at Compass for example. The word(potentially) is that no pilot will fly for Northwest without first having flown for compass under crap conditions for god knows how long. This may prove to be the concrete future of the biz. God help us.

The simple question is this: How long are you willing to live on love alone? Think long and hard about it because it may prove to be a long requirement.

 

[ex j-41]

I made more money teaching people to fly in a C-150 (2 Seats) then i am flying a CRJ 700. (70 Seats) Each step "Up" in aircraft meant that i made less money. First year pay at regionals and 6 year regional pay is totally unacceptable.

 

[PilotOnTheRise]

I know of a few people who got fed up with aviation, quit, thinking they could make so much more money, outside of aviation, as many of you do, and they are now miserable, and wish they had stayed in aviation. One is trying to get back in. The grass isn't always greener. If you are a regional CA, major FO, and especially a major CA, and think you can leave aviation, and make so much more outside of aviation, you are kidding yourself. The only way to make real money, for the most part, is to own your own business. Even then, there are so many risks, and no guarantee the bussiness will succeed. It is hard to make any kind of "decent" money, working for someone else. Salary statistics in this country, prove that. Only 10% of people in this country make $80K or above. I think there is a big misconception among the general public with regards to what pilots make, but I think there is just as much a misconception among pilots, who have never worked a day outside of aviation, with regards to what those, outside of aviation, are making. Truth is, nobody makes what you think!

 

[Muppets]

Be careful.......trust me there is somebody willing to fly your pretty jet for that pay....its only a matter of time until mgt. realizes it.

 

[PilotOnTheRise]

Be careful.......trust me there is somebody willing to fly your pretty jet for that pay....its only a matter of time until mgt. realizes it.

I think mgt. already realizes it.

 

[Ponchus pilot]

I work as a loan officer right now and it's the same old routine day after day

if you are a good LO you know you are making money. I started my own mortgage business a few years ago and it has far exceeded my expectations. I had this opportunity since I had to take a a medical and thanks to my companies loss of license insurance and the ALPA insurance I had money until I made it. If you are truely thinking about flying make sure to properly establish yourself in another business before you do it. Flying is fun but you have to remember that it is still a job and its not going for $100 burger run in a C172. You can do 5-6 legs a day and many short overnights and the FA are not all that. I dont know about the place you work at but most Lo are independant contractors so they can work more or less on their own terms, plus you get weekends and hollidays off. just remember that the grass is always greener on the other side.