Flops SOP Revision 1

[Dep676]

Well what I am saying is that they scedule things down to the minute of 14 hour day. If the pax's show up a little late and then it take 20 minutes to unload them and all their crap. You have to get everything shut down and put to "bed" before 14 hours. Putting the plane to "bed" is still duty for the company. Then if you have MX to deal with. That's a whole new ball game. So the problem goes back to them scheduling you for a 14 hour day everyday. All they know is 14/10 nothing else. They don't understand that pax's rarely show up on time or ATC delay's. They think that you can go over your 14 hour duty day because of that stuff. Then they get pi$$ed after you tell them you can not make the next day's trips because you only have 9 hours rest scheduled that way.

 

[SkywayFO]

They changed the extra rest after going over 14 hours of duty too. It's now if you go aver 60 not 30 minutes over you get 12 hours of rest. So they are writing there own FAR's now too. So they will start to hand out KY at recurrent.

 

[dash_trash]

sitting in ground school @ dfw and were told yesterday that we are going to have 30 min. after block in.

 

[Dep676]

How can they go against the reg's?


135.267(c) A flight crewmember's flight time may exceed the flight time limits of paragraph(b) of this section if the assigned flight time occurs during a regularly assigned duty period of no more than 14 hours and -.

It goes on to explain rest requirements. Am I missing something here about duty day? I read no more than 14 hours.

 

[Dep676]

sitting in ground school @ dfw and were told yesterday that we are going to have 30 min. after block in.

Well boys and girls looks like we had to taxi for a loooooooooooong time before we could block in. Two can play this game. Also might just find something broke in the morning instead of at night. Didn't have time to find it at night. Only had 30 minutes to get cabin cleaned up, pax unloaded, and post flight the airplane.

 

[Lrjet55]

For what its worth fellas here is how we do it at Nutjets. We have to be in the blocks by 13:30 so you have 30 minutes to put the plane to bed by 14:00 and get to the hotel. No reasonable but company policy. If we are running late sometimes we can get the company to extend the time a little. Our FOM allows us to go over 14 for weather, pax delays etc and the FAA signed off on it. Hopefully no one does go over 14 but there are always some.

 

[El Chupacabra]

Well boys and girls looks like we had to taxi for a loooooooooooong time before we could block in. Two can play this game. Also might just find something broke in the morning instead of at night. Didn't have time to find it at night. Only had 30 minutes to get cabin cleaned up, pax unloaded, and post flight the airplane.

EXACTLY!

 

[TurboHonda]

Additional Rest

Additional Rest = Additional Duty Time

The Company has defined, unilaterally, the following Rest Periods

"Required rest" Minimum duration (10 Hours) specified under CFR 135. The "required rest" period follows the end of a duty period.

O.K. I understand that. Makes sense - doesn't require further interpretation.

"Additional rest" Any assigned period of rest in excess of the minimum "required rest" period and concurrent (added to the end of) with that "required rest" period.

Now I have a problem. The SOP refers you to the GOM to spell out the procedures for Contacting Crews in "Additional rest". Sounds to me like "standby" which is another word for "duty". So it's conceivable and probable that the "Additional rest", which is just another word for "Standby" in conjunction with the 14 hour day that you will work can amount to 16, 18, 20 hours of "duty". It's the same smoke and mirrors used in trying to pass a "right to work" bill, which is really "employment at will".

Shakesphere said "A turd may be presented as a rose, but it still remains what it is". Or words to that effect.

 

[Disco]

*****

 

[Hawk Driver]

For what its worth fellas here is how we do it at Nutjets. We have to be in the blocks by 13:30 so you have 30 minutes to put the plane to bed by 14:00 and get to the hotel. No reasonable but company policy. If we are running late sometimes we can get the company to extend the time a little. Our FOM allows us to go over 14 for weather, pax delays etc and the FAA signed off on it. Hopefully no one does go over 14 but there are always some.

Actually, the union and the company issued a letter back in the summertime signed by both sides stating that they can schedule crews right to 14 hours. The plane is handed over to the company and it is their responsibility to ensure that it's "post flighted and cleaned."

HD

 

[Fozzy]

HD,


Show me that letter! I will not dump a plane without a post flight. Think of the what ifs. What if you broke something and the next crew didn't catch it. What if that results in someone getting hurt. Now when the FAA finds out that you did not do what you are supposed to be doing (post flight), then you have some explaining to do. Sorry, 13.5 or no go. Period. And if we have enroute delays etc and get in after 14 hours or whatever, I still do the walk around.

Again, show me the letter. I don't doubt you. The 5 did a lot of damage.

 

[Hawk Driver]

HD,


Show me that letter! I will not dump a plane without a post flight. Think of the what ifs. What if you broke something and the next crew didn't catch it. What if that results in someone getting hurt. Now when the FAA finds out that you did not do what you are supposed to be doing (post flight), then you have some explaining to do. Sorry, 13.5 or no go. Period. And if we have enroute delays etc and get in after 14 hours or whatever, I still do the walk around.

Again, show me the letter. I don't doubt you. The 5 did a lot of damage.

Dated July 16, 2004 Letter 04-04

Duty period extensions for operational reasons:

The duty which immediately follows block-in time of Company aircraft (i.e., 30 minutes or longer when provided for a specific aircraft type) is provided for required post-flight activities. The Company may extend the duty period of a crewmember(s) for required post flight activities or, at its sole discretion, relieve the crewmember(s) of the requirement to conduct required post flight activities. The correct protocol is for the Captain to act as the single point of contact and communicate directly with Crew Services when requesting such a duty extension.

This letter is signed by both Vermullen and NJA. It was explained to me that they can work us right to 14 hours, send us to the hotel and then bring us on early to post flight the following day.

I don't disagree that the captain should still complete the post flight but this is the letter I was referring too. I didn't write it...

HD

 

[Tommy Boy]

How can they go against the reg's?


135.267(c) A flight crewmember's flight time may exceed the flight time limits of paragraph(b) of this section if the assigned flight time occurs during a regularly assigned duty period of no more than 14 hours and -.

It goes on to explain rest requirements. Am I missing something here about duty day? I read no more than 14 hours.

Unfortunately the 14hrs only applies to the flying part, and only to 135 flying as well. If you land and block in by the 14hrs you are legal according to the faa. You can even do a part 91 leg after that as well.

However they CANNOT start your rest period until you physically leave the airport. And once that period starts they CANNOT interupt your rest. If you are briefed to show up at the airport exactly when your 10hrs ends, that is legal but they have to tell you about it before you go into rest.

What you REALLY have to keep an eye on is we have to constantly look at the past 24hrs and you cannot have more than 10 flying hours in the past 24 hours, part 91 or 135 or any kind of flying. It all counts for that.

For example, you just did a teterhole to cabo trip, two legs at say 3.5 with a quick fuel stop. When you get to cabo you go right into rest and then show up 10hrs later at the airport to do a cabo to teterhole trip. If you draw that out on a chart you can see how you will exceed the 10hrs in 24. Now that is an extreme case but that is just to illustrate how it can happen. It is much easier to do than most people think. And I can gosh darn garauntee ya that scratch or scheduling or anyone else at the company is NOT monitoring that.

When the feds notice it you can guess who takes all the responsibility. Thats why we make the big bucks right? ha ha

 

[Grizz]

The problem Tommy Boy is that our contract says we only work 14 unless we choose to go over it. I'm not seeing a lot of guys willing to go over 14 right now.

 

[Tommy Boy]

The problem Tommy Boy is that our contract says we only work 14 unless we choose to go over it. I'm not seeing a lot of guys willing to go over 14 right now.

Well unfortunately I am at the other one.... Flight Options. With no contract we have to fight just to make the company give us what is legally required for rest and flying.

I've been telling people here for years that things are gonna get worse and worse but unfortunately we have a lot of pilots who aren't familiar with the way many companies in this industry treats us and had to get their bubble burst before they were willing to organize. Its a shame we all have to lose that in order to survive and do the job I love to do.

I think things are finally getting bad enough that we may be able to get it this time. But now unfortunately we will spend all our energy fighting just to get back to square one rather than for something good.

A contract is still a must, just could have been much better earlier.