Flops SOP Revision 1

[slowtation capt]

Well they have done it again.

"A crewmember traveling via airlines to a duty assignment will be considered on duty 90 min. prior to the airlines scheduled deperature time"

Snuck that in, no word from the home front about that one.

 

[FracCapt]

Just make sure you don't go on duty more than 90 minutes before the flight then. I know of several situations where I would have missed a flight had I done that. So be it. I guess the 2 hour thing was just "too restrictive for scheduling", like our circadian times and "no answer til duty start" policy.

Tier 3's are too restrictive...maybe the Tier 2's(except CLE) as well, who knows? 8/7 is probably too restrictive. I'm sure ordering crew meals(which they only do on live legs as it is) is becoming very difficult and restrictive. What's next?

 

[HSDriver]

Slowtation capt,

Don't you understand? They need to be able to put you on that six a.m. airline. Now they can do that and still get the full 14 out of you. Thats all this amounts to. They've pretty much got it now so that an early airline and those early a.m. repo flights dont affect your duty time.

Send in your card...meanwhile they will keep chipping away.

 

[Lrjet55]

As an NJA guy we have a 2 hour show before an airline and it counts towards your 14 hour duty day.

Can you guys clarify what your 90 min show counts or doesnt count to?
Just curious.

 

[fogrunner]

Glad to be gone!!!!!

I feel for my friends who are still there. You all deserve better.

 

[Dep676]

As an NJA guy we have a 2 hour show before an airline and it counts towards your 14 hour duty day.

Can you guys clarify what your 90 min show counts or doesnt count to?
Just curious.

Well it used to be 2 hours before your airlines on day one. Yes that counted towards duty and still does. The jagoffs in CGF can't handle it anymore because they don't have enough crews or a$$ kissers to do OT. So they shorten it. Just like the circadian low time went from 0100 to 0500. To now 0130 to 0400.

Hurry up and send in those cards. It is only going to get worse people. WAKE UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[luvu]

ASAP registration and card drive proceeding briskly

Use the links below to establish and maintain communications and input. If everybody currently onboard gives it a good push this week then the card drive can be wrapped up and sent off to NLB in D.C. very quickly.

So push hard this week guys and keep pushing until its done.



http://p068.ezboard.com/brtapilots

http://asapflightdeck.com/






.

 

[longrangekiller]

The question stands. How fast are the cards coming in. In a flood or a trickle? It has been three weeks now and you guys are still pleading for cards. If it is as bad as you say and management is bending ya over and breach loadin ya' as often as you claim, would the card drive have taken this long already?

 

[Lrjet55]

From and NJA perspective it could take time. After all, changing from a non union carrier to a union is not an easy descision. People are not sold on unions. I am glad we have one a NJA and it has proved its worth in certain situations.

The problem Flops will run into are many of the same we experience. There is a general unwillingness of certain pilots to think of anyone but themselves. I am sure there is a well organized "A" team as there is with us.

For those on the fence I tell you, not promise or assure, that things can get better. Leave money out of it for a moment because we all know that part sucks but just having the ability to prevent management from making unillateral descisions makes a big difference. NJA will do this from time to time and no we are seeing some changes. The union has the ability to fight back. We always had it in the past but it was never used.

I say give the union a shot. If we had all the Fractionals under the same hat we could make a difference. We need all the fractionals to survive. We need healthy competition. As an NJA guy I like the other frac pilots out there, "A" teamers aside, I just dont like what the managements are doing.

 

[luvu]

you are misinformed

It has been three weeks now and you guys are still pleading for cards.

It has been exactly 10 days today since ASAP board opened to Flight Options pilots and started soliciting cards. Not three weeks. Response has been tremendous, especially considering this is being driven purely by word of mouth and there has been zero dollars spent on mailings.

At the present rate of board registrations and cards coming in, which represents exponential day to day growth, I think it is reasonable to expect that by end of March, the card drive will be 100% complete.

This is all without any mailings and purely by word of mouth.

Netjets pilots are even getting in on recruitment efforts and are being seen around the FBO's with copies of the cards in hand to give to Flight Options crews they run into who may not have yet gotten the word.

This kind of cross company support is both appreciated and unprecendented within the fractional community.

Keep it up.

 

[longrangekiller]

Ok, I can not tell time. Not required for an ATP. Fact remains, if The FO Guys are Squeakin' from the Freakin' Onikin' from the Boinkin', as loud as some who have us believe, then why no flood of cards. Word of mouth should have traveled like wild-fire.

 

[minimums]

Response has been tremendous, especially considering this is being driven purely by word of mouth and there has been zero dollars spent on mailings.

This is all without any mailings and purely by word of mouth.

Keep it up.

Why are we doing it this way? Why not send a message via the BB to ALL the flight crews?

I see the problem as this. Some people want a union, other's didn't, but do now and some don't.

People are afraid to put their neck out on the line and be open and proactive in an organizing effort due to the Fab 5 fiasco (which was worth millions I'm sure), even though we are protected by law.

I have seen pro-union posts for a couple years on NJ2's board and it hasn't changed anything. It is the same people posting over and over again, some even answer their own posts under another assumed name.

What it's going to take is an OPEN and ORGANIZED campaign. I don't see word of mouth sealing the deal. I haven't talked to many guys on the road, and none of them know anything about a union drive at FOs.

 

[Tommy Boy]

Another rumor is that they are going to go to a 30 min duty off after block in on the last leg rather than 1 hr.

Imagine that.

 

[Dep676]

Another rumor is that they are going to go to a 30 min duty off after block in on the last leg rather than 1 hr.

Imagine that.

I do not think that FAA will go for that one. I heard that one a while ago to.

If that is the case then you leave when the pax leave too. That is how long it takes to get them off the plane at times. Then you can walk away and not put the plane to "bed". It all comes down to not enough crews and planes. Schedulers can not handle their jobs.

 

[longrangekiller]

Dep676, The Feds do not care if the blocks go in at exactly 14 hours. Time to put the plane to sleep is not definded in the regs and the FEDS, they do not care just so long as you are on the ground and parked. I have set the brake and just walked away at exactly 14 hours a couple of times. Best of luck to you guys.

 

[Dep676]

Well what I am saying is that they scedule things down to the minute of 14 hour day. If the pax's show up a little late and then it take 20 minutes to unload them and all their crap. You have to get everything shut down and put to "bed" before 14 hours. Putting the plane to "bed" is still duty for the company. Then if you have MX to deal with. That's a whole new ball game. So the problem goes back to them scheduling you for a 14 hour day everyday. All they know is 14/10 nothing else. They don't understand that pax's rarely show up on time or ATC delay's. They think that you can go over your 14 hour duty day because of that stuff. Then they get pi$$ed after you tell them you can not make the next day's trips because you only have 9 hours rest scheduled that way.

 

[SkywayFO]

They changed the extra rest after going over 14 hours of duty too. It's now if you go aver 60 not 30 minutes over you get 12 hours of rest. So they are writing there own FAR's now too. So they will start to hand out KY at recurrent.

 

[dash_trash]

sitting in ground school @ dfw and were told yesterday that we are going to have 30 min. after block in.

 

[Dep676]

How can they go against the reg's?


135.267(c) A flight crewmember's flight time may exceed the flight time limits of paragraph(b) of this section if the assigned flight time occurs during a regularly assigned duty period of no more than 14 hours and -.

It goes on to explain rest requirements. Am I missing something here about duty day? I read no more than 14 hours.

 

[Dep676]

sitting in ground school @ dfw and were told yesterday that we are going to have 30 min. after block in.

Well boys and girls looks like we had to taxi for a loooooooooooong time before we could block in. Two can play this game. Also might just find something broke in the morning instead of at night. Didn't have time to find it at night. Only had 30 minutes to get cabin cleaned up, pax unloaded, and post flight the airplane.

 

[Lrjet55]

For what its worth fellas here is how we do it at Nutjets. We have to be in the blocks by 13:30 so you have 30 minutes to put the plane to bed by 14:00 and get to the hotel. No reasonable but company policy. If we are running late sometimes we can get the company to extend the time a little. Our FOM allows us to go over 14 for weather, pax delays etc and the FAA signed off on it. Hopefully no one does go over 14 but there are always some.

 

[El Chupacabra]

Well boys and girls looks like we had to taxi for a loooooooooooong time before we could block in. Two can play this game. Also might just find something broke in the morning instead of at night. Didn't have time to find it at night. Only had 30 minutes to get cabin cleaned up, pax unloaded, and post flight the airplane.

EXACTLY!

 

[TurboHonda]

Additional Rest

Additional Rest = Additional Duty Time

The Company has defined, unilaterally, the following Rest Periods

"Required rest" Minimum duration (10 Hours) specified under CFR 135. The "required rest" period follows the end of a duty period.

O.K. I understand that. Makes sense - doesn't require further interpretation.

"Additional rest" Any assigned period of rest in excess of the minimum "required rest" period and concurrent (added to the end of) with that "required rest" period.

Now I have a problem. The SOP refers you to the GOM to spell out the procedures for Contacting Crews in "Additional rest". Sounds to me like "standby" which is another word for "duty". So it's conceivable and probable that the "Additional rest", which is just another word for "Standby" in conjunction with the 14 hour day that you will work can amount to 16, 18, 20 hours of "duty". It's the same smoke and mirrors used in trying to pass a "right to work" bill, which is really "employment at will".

Shakesphere said "A turd may be presented as a rose, but it still remains what it is". Or words to that effect.

 

[Disco]

*****

 

[Hawk Driver]

For what its worth fellas here is how we do it at Nutjets. We have to be in the blocks by 13:30 so you have 30 minutes to put the plane to bed by 14:00 and get to the hotel. No reasonable but company policy. If we are running late sometimes we can get the company to extend the time a little. Our FOM allows us to go over 14 for weather, pax delays etc and the FAA signed off on it. Hopefully no one does go over 14 but there are always some.

Actually, the union and the company issued a letter back in the summertime signed by both sides stating that they can schedule crews right to 14 hours. The plane is handed over to the company and it is their responsibility to ensure that it's "post flighted and cleaned."

HD

 

[Fozzy]

HD,


Show me that letter! I will not dump a plane without a post flight. Think of the what ifs. What if you broke something and the next crew didn't catch it. What if that results in someone getting hurt. Now when the FAA finds out that you did not do what you are supposed to be doing (post flight), then you have some explaining to do. Sorry, 13.5 or no go. Period. And if we have enroute delays etc and get in after 14 hours or whatever, I still do the walk around.

Again, show me the letter. I don't doubt you. The 5 did a lot of damage.

 

[Hawk Driver]

HD,


Show me that letter! I will not dump a plane without a post flight. Think of the what ifs. What if you broke something and the next crew didn't catch it. What if that results in someone getting hurt. Now when the FAA finds out that you did not do what you are supposed to be doing (post flight), then you have some explaining to do. Sorry, 13.5 or no go. Period. And if we have enroute delays etc and get in after 14 hours or whatever, I still do the walk around.

Again, show me the letter. I don't doubt you. The 5 did a lot of damage.

Dated July 16, 2004 Letter 04-04

Duty period extensions for operational reasons:

The duty which immediately follows block-in time of Company aircraft (i.e., 30 minutes or longer when provided for a specific aircraft type) is provided for required post-flight activities. The Company may extend the duty period of a crewmember(s) for required post flight activities or, at its sole discretion, relieve the crewmember(s) of the requirement to conduct required post flight activities. The correct protocol is for the Captain to act as the single point of contact and communicate directly with Crew Services when requesting such a duty extension.

This letter is signed by both Vermullen and NJA. It was explained to me that they can work us right to 14 hours, send us to the hotel and then bring us on early to post flight the following day.

I don't disagree that the captain should still complete the post flight but this is the letter I was referring too. I didn't write it...

HD

 

[Tommy Boy]

How can they go against the reg's?


135.267(c) A flight crewmember's flight time may exceed the flight time limits of paragraph(b) of this section if the assigned flight time occurs during a regularly assigned duty period of no more than 14 hours and -.

It goes on to explain rest requirements. Am I missing something here about duty day? I read no more than 14 hours.

Unfortunately the 14hrs only applies to the flying part, and only to 135 flying as well. If you land and block in by the 14hrs you are legal according to the faa. You can even do a part 91 leg after that as well.

However they CANNOT start your rest period until you physically leave the airport. And once that period starts they CANNOT interupt your rest. If you are briefed to show up at the airport exactly when your 10hrs ends, that is legal but they have to tell you about it before you go into rest.

What you REALLY have to keep an eye on is we have to constantly look at the past 24hrs and you cannot have more than 10 flying hours in the past 24 hours, part 91 or 135 or any kind of flying. It all counts for that.

For example, you just did a teterhole to cabo trip, two legs at say 3.5 with a quick fuel stop. When you get to cabo you go right into rest and then show up 10hrs later at the airport to do a cabo to teterhole trip. If you draw that out on a chart you can see how you will exceed the 10hrs in 24. Now that is an extreme case but that is just to illustrate how it can happen. It is much easier to do than most people think. And I can gosh darn garauntee ya that scratch or scheduling or anyone else at the company is NOT monitoring that.

When the feds notice it you can guess who takes all the responsibility. Thats why we make the big bucks right? ha ha

 

[Grizz]

The problem Tommy Boy is that our contract says we only work 14 unless we choose to go over it. I'm not seeing a lot of guys willing to go over 14 right now.

 

[Tommy Boy]

The problem Tommy Boy is that our contract says we only work 14 unless we choose to go over it. I'm not seeing a lot of guys willing to go over 14 right now.

Well unfortunately I am at the other one.... Flight Options. With no contract we have to fight just to make the company give us what is legally required for rest and flying.

I've been telling people here for years that things are gonna get worse and worse but unfortunately we have a lot of pilots who aren't familiar with the way many companies in this industry treats us and had to get their bubble burst before they were willing to organize. Its a shame we all have to lose that in order to survive and do the job I love to do.

I think things are finally getting bad enough that we may be able to get it this time. But now unfortunately we will spend all our energy fighting just to get back to square one rather than for something good.

A contract is still a must, just could have been much better earlier.