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FLOPS/NETJETS:The REAL Rumor Possibilty vs Scare Tactics

Voice Of Reason

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I find it amusing that all of these rumors are flying around that Net Jets is supposedly going to buy FLOPS. ....AND YET.... the NetJets guys are seemingly "so concerned" that the Flops pilots unionize. Hmmm.... If THAT rumor were to be possible you'd think that it would be just the opposite.

Consider this... A few years ago when RTA existed as a separate entity (and a union ALMOST a done deal (so they say)...it would have been thought UNFATHOMABLE that "little" Flight Options would be the one taking over.... YET IT HAPPENED.

Then, after the dust had settled and any unionizing back to square one, Big Raytheon is back at the helm, recently taking over more than 90 percent ownership. (Ever hear of them?... HUGE company, unlimited government contracts, etc).

Back at NetJets, the powers that be suddenly decide to "give in to union demands" (after several years), giving much more than they likely intend to pay in all actuality...HOW, you say?

Well, in case you've missed it, fractional ownership has come into light as being not the big profitable deal it was originally thought to be. SO, if not (see article "Fact or Fraction" via google)... Then the allegedly "New" plane fractionals would be the ones headed for the biggest dive as they charge the most...for planes that, in all reality aren't all that much newer (OH YEAH...and what company MAKES a lot of these planes???...RAYTHEON).

Now, knowing this latest downward trend in fractional providers, and having a HUGE interest in its profit and survival...MAYBE Momma Raytheon sees an opportunity... BUY NETJETS (not the other way around)...operate under the premise of Flops plan... (*EXCEPT* bring in management that is not incompetent, and run it efficiently)...and guess what...Uncle Warren walks away fat & happy...and no more profit down the drain (which would be moreso with the union contract)... OR**** Maybe Uncle Warren is in "silent partner cahoots" with Raytheon to share in this venture without the headache of the union. (It HAS been done, as you see).

So now, not only will Raytheon be MAKING the planes, but they can (plan) to run a lower cost plan which will result in higher profits for them...with no middle man between the assmebly line and accounts receivable for the fractional contracts.

Where does that leave the NetJets contract? Why, stapled to the bottom, of course! :) ...JUST like they'd plan to do with FLOPS...except THIS scenario seems the most likely to me, as NetJets would CERTAINLY not approve such a contract, intending to bring on an additional pilot force as large as Flops to add to the burden.

Not likely? Neither was Flops "taking over" RTA...Welcome to big corporate and the art of the union bust. DON'T SHOOT THE MESSENGER...

Just think about THIS: WHY do NetJets pilots have SUCH a big interest in spending their free time "helping" FLOPS pilots? WHY is the FLOPS IBT board completely under the NetJets IBT umbrella (so they know what's going on at every second)....

Tell me. WHY the sudden caring about FLOPS pilots? Hmmmm...

addendum: The preceding speculation, while highly likely, is...like other garbage posted, just speculation...yet a distinct possibility...think for YOURSELF, weigh BOTH possibilties...yet KNOW that there are games being played on BOTH sides, so decide READING ALL possibilities

(...OH, I know...so and so TALKED to so and so big cheese and so and so rumor is a "done deal"...aren't they ALL)
 
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Frac Rat

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Congratulations

That post actually has some merit. Having been around for the FLOPS/RTA merger mess, I can vouch for the fact that the impossible CAN happen. Kinda far fetched though.
 

Voice Of Reason

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Frac Rat said:
That post actually has some merit. Having been around for the FLOPS/RTA merger mess, I can vouch for the fact that the impossible CAN happen. Kinda far fetched though.

I KNOW Frac Rat...that's what I thought about the deal with RTA...MY Gahd! They day that announcement came out someone told me on the ramp, and I thought someone was playing a very huge practical joke... That's how these big greedy companies operate, though...in THEIR best interests. Sick, but true.

Why do you think not only NetJets pilots, but IBT in general is so concerned about getting Flops pilots "asap"? Good grief, they've been saying they're "almost there" with the Flops cards for so long now...If things were really so last ditch for Flops pilots to go the IBT route, wouldn't they be THERE long ago? Flops sucks, TOTALLY...but IBT sucks too... (oh yes..."the big contract", lol...we'll see how long that applies)

I think most people just intend to stick it out until that next best thing comes along. That's just human nature, take it or leave it...
 

SafetyTheSeat

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Well let's see... Flops buys NETJETS, guess what they buy the UNION contract also.... Its binding!

Flops pilots and NJA pilots merger.... RLA rules, etc... NJA pilots are protected by law in the merger-FLOPS pilots? O well....

FLOPS pilots joining a UNION is there business!!! They are doing it to better their lot.. Doesn't help us one bit.. Good luck to them, they need it..
 

Voice Of Reason

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SafetyTheSeat said:
Well let's see... Flops buys NETJETS, guess what they buy the UNION contract also.... Its binding!

...Keep telling yourself that...

BTW.... I didn't know TAs were "binding" :nuts: lol

These guys have WAYYYYYYY better lawyers than IBT could ever afford...trust me, ideology rarely wins in the court of big business....
 

Guitar Guy

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Interesting conjecture. I guess we'll know in about 2 weeks... or maybe not.:rolleyes:

Stay tuned.
 

Cavpilot

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Ummmm... O.K. let me see now.

The basis of your theory is that strange things happen in business, so Flops is going to buy NetJets. Pretty weak.

Furthermore, you postulate that the company (Raytheon) that was so anxious to to get out of the fractional market that they practically gave it to KR for free, then repoed it back when he defaulted, THEN just recently had to dump a load of cash into it to keep it going is going to purchase NetJets! I suppose Flyi is about to buy Jetblue as well.

BTW, your knowledge of labor contracts is poor. I recommend that you educate yourself on the subject before posting.
 

gunfyter

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Voice Of Reason said:
Where does that leave the NetJets contract? Why, stapled to the bottom, of course! :) ...JUST like they'd plan to do with FLOPS...except THIS scenario seems the most likely to me, as NetJets would CERTAINLY not approve such a contract, intending to bring on an additional pilot force as large as Flops to add to the burden.
)

Dude... Can you spell DESPERATE?

First of all there is no intent to staple anyone to the bottom. The TA says in the event of mergers everybody keeps their seat. A fence system gets implemented.

But good job trying to instill fear into everybody. I do not think your fellow pilots at FLOPS will fall for your BS.

Why am I interested in helping FLOPS pilots unionize? Cause I want to screw you guys... Oh yeah Right.

You are not the voice of reason. You are the voice of paranoid insanity. UN -Informed paranoid insanity I might add.
 

Voice Of Reason

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the usual tools

gunfyter said:
Dude... Can you spell DESPERATE?

First of all there is no intent to staple anyone to the bottom. The TA says in the event of mergers everybody keeps their seat. A fence system gets implemented.

But good job trying to instill fear into everybody. I do not think your fellow pilots at FLOPS will fall for your BS.

Fear??? Nice PROJECTION yet again...
Here's some FEAR for you... Read what "gunfyter" says above, then go to the public section of IBT1108 where they have the TA in its entirety (if it is still there).

"everybody keeps their seat" my gluteals! You forgot to add "IF BOTH ARE IBT".

Who is trying to scare WHO into what? You're all so transparent its sickening. I'm just calling what I see, I couldn't care less if a union comes or NOT...but don't try to silence me when I out that you are only telling HALF of the story.
 
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Tommy Boy

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Whoever buys whoever doesn't really matter. What is a fact is that the fractional companies pay and treat their pilots like dirt. We are the regionals of the corporate world. So the more guys we can get to join together under the same umbrella of protection, the better for us. Imagine if we had flexjet and citationshares as well. We would be a pretty strong force to reckon with. And we know we won't get rich, but we aren't asking too. Just to be treated and paid like we deserve.

And raytheon didn't give us more cash, they basically bought out most of the other remaining investors. So now they own like 97.6% of us.....but we still are not a "raytheon" company so all the old rta guys still lose their retirement. That is an example of the kind of reasons we need to join with the other fractional pilots in looking out for our own skin.
 

Voice Of Reason

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thou protesteth too much

Ever hear the old cliche "the truth hurts"?

Why else the rage that stems from my speculation vs the speculation certain others feel you MUST believe?

If I am wrong, so be it... but consider WHY it would make someone rage so, if it didn't hit home?
(re:SafetytheSeat, gunfyter, cavpilot)
 
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gunfyter

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Yes read it. Section 1.10.C


I am sure Voice can show you where it says pilots get stapled. He must have X-ray vision.

1.10(c)i
"There will be no flush or removal of pilots from their positions as a result of seniority integration."


Poor desperate, desperate man....

I don't know your payscales... but from what I understand .. everybody would Get A Raise, Have more vacation, work a better schedule...

Sure sounds like it would suck being a Teamster... hmmmm
 
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DO-82 driver

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Hey Voice....thanks for the laughs....just had about 40 or so pilots follow your post during Company recurrent.....It almost sounds like you used to be on the Company negotiation team here in CMH.

Keep'em coming...
 

Bored so Here

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Voice Of Reason said:
operate under the premise of Flops plan... (*EXCEPT* bring in management that is not incompetent, and run it efficiently)...and guess what...Uncle Warren walks away fat & happy...and no more profit down the drain

This competent, efficient management would be who? Netjets "management?" Sorry dude, but you just lost credibility as a "voice of reason" there.

As a personal rule of thumb, I usually keep my mouth shut if I don't know what I'm talking about. It's embarrasing...
 

Voice Of Reason

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Bored said:
This competent, efficient management would be who? Netjets "management?" Sorry dude, but you just lost credibility as a "voice of reason" there.
As a personal rule of thumb, I usually keep my mouth shut if I don't know what I'm talking about. It's embarrasing...

You're right...you should 'usually keep (your) mouth shut if (you) don't know what you are talking about'...Who said anything about NETJETS mgt??? Surely not me... Put down the pipe
 

Diesel

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Wow man you have derailed.
 

Voice Of Reason

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Here You Go

gunfyter said:
Yes read it. Section 1.10.C




I am sure Voice can show you where it says pilots get stapled. He must have X-ray vision.

1.10(c)i
"There will be no flush or removal of pilots from their positions as a result of seniority integration."






------------------------------------------------
How about p 14?...you know, gunfyter, the same part, yet directly prior to the tiny tidbit you chose to cut and paste....You didn't think us blind, did you?: http://www.ibt1108.org/3FINAL%20JBD%2010-13-05.pdf





1.10(c)(i)






If pilots of the acquired carrier are hired by the Company, the seniority lists of
the respective pilot groups shall be integrated pursuant to Teamsters Merger Policy if
both groups are represented by the IBT, or if the pilots of the acquired airline are not
represented by the IBT, then pursuant to a method *to be determined by the Union*.
Seniority integration procedures shall be promptly initiated following announcement of
an operational merger affecting the seniority of the pilot groups. The Company or other
Successor, as appropriate, shall accept the integrated seniority list. There will be no
system flush or removal of pilots from their positions as a result of seniority list
integration. (ed: Meaning the pilots covered by this agreement:IBT, see underlined/bold section...of course, this is assuming NetJets would be the buyer, lol)













 
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