Flop's Flameout

[Choppy]

Does anyone know what the story was with the most recent dual flameout over Florida? That one got kind of pushed up under the rug!

 

[guido411]

It's not pushed under the rug, it's on the NTSB website as under investigation. Company has a new procedure for boost pumps and engine anti-ice on at TOD. NTSB said to be concentrating on environmental factors, not fuel.

 

[RNObased]

It's not pushed under the rug, it's on the NTSB website as under investigation. Company has a new procedure for boost pumps and engine anti-ice on at TOD. NTSB said to be concentrating on environmental factors, not fuel.

So you are telling me that the engine heats come on at TOD no matter what the conditions???? If that is so, it sounds like a knee jerk reaction of the first order??? How is that going to help anything if you are flying along in clear air??? Or is there more to the story?????

 

[dime line]

funny thing is the engine heats are only suppose to be put on below 90%n1, and at cruise your above 90%n1, so you have to pull back the power to turn on the heats. And in both glider incidents the motors quit at throttle retard.

 

[Nixon]

And in both glider incidents the motors quit at throttle retard.

Well then, just pull them back one at a time! That was easy!

 

[RNObased]

Well then, just pull them back one at a time! That was easy!

With pax on board???? Brilliant idea........ NOT

 

[Nixon]

With pax on board???? Brilliant idea........ NOT

That's a joke...I say, that's a joke, son.

 

[blzr]

why would you pull the throttles back to idle anyway just to put on engine heat?

 

[guido411]

So you are telling me that the engine heats come on at TOD no matter what the conditions???? If that is so, it sounds like a knee jerk reaction of the first order??? How is that going to help anything if you are flying along in clear air??? Or is there more to the story?????

RNO,

Good assesment, "knee-jerk" is the tradional Flight Options reaction, and yes, EVERY TOD when above FL300 for more than 30 mins is what the mandate says. I can't say it hurts to put the boost pumps on, or the ignitors for that matter. So besides burning up more ignitors I guess it's no skin off my back.

=why would you pull the throttles back to idle anyway just to put on engine heat?

Not back to idle, limitation of the BJ is to have the power at 90% N1 or less before turning engine anti-ice on. It protects the barrier layer of air inside the burner can that insulates really hot fire from the metal of the combustion chamber. If the anti-ice is turned on with the power high it can disrupt the air boundary due to more bleed air leaving the engine.

 

[Big Daddy]

Well the last time I checked it is in Peterboro ONT CYPQ getting a cosmetic makeover. Something to the sort of a sand and paint and a tail number change.

 

[RNObased]

RNO,

Good assesment, "knee-jerk" is the tradional Flight Options reaction, and yes, EVERY TOD when above FL300 for more than 30 mins is what the mandate says. I can't say it hurts to put the boost pumps on, or the ignitors for that matter. So besides burning up more ignitors I guess it's no skin off my back.

I have way too many hours in this lovely little pile of crap airplane and I'm racking my brain to figure out why in heck you would turn the engine heats on to desend if you were in clear air for say the last 30mins. It makes no sense what so ever, and if someone at Options would actually think it through, I'm sure it would make no sense.

Now the boost pumps??? Ok, maybe they think that is going to help the fuel keep flowing, I will give them that. Even though those pumps aren't strong enough to keep the engine running by themselves.

Please understand 411 I'm not berating you in any way, I fly the silly thing and anything to keep this thing from becoming a glider is good info. However after reading what their cure is, I'm not sure they know anything about the jet....

Someone read Raytheon, needs to come up with a fix before this jet kills someone. Note to Raytheon FUEL HEATERS. I'm not suprised the engineers there can't figure this one out. After seeing some of the brillant fixes they came up with in the past for this thing.

God, I need to fly a different jet.....

 

[dime line]

I guess they are now looking at fuel heaters. Blackberry e-mail, said FLOPS might see them in late 2007

 

[guido411]

RNO,

I didn't take offense to anything you said, no worries. Most of our pilots share the same feelings as you, I was just saying that if THAT'S what they want me to do, I'l humor them. Yes, they still want them to be on at TOD even if you've been in clear air, but I think that's just to make it the same way every time so there's no thought involved. We have to play to the lowest common denominator you know? I think they're smart enough to know you need moisture present to create ice, the verdict is out though.

I have heard different versions of the latest flameout story, some that say they were in clear air, others that say they were on top of most of the weather but in the wispy cirrus on top. If this was the case then it is possible they got some induction ice and the "pop" they heard from each engine was a turbine coming to an abrupt stop. As per the new procedure we are also supposed to have the heats (engine) on for operation at altitude in the wispy stuff even if it's -60 C out.

"It's never too cold for ice" is their new mantra. I'm going to wait till I see something stamped by NASA to finally judge that statement. It is odd though that in the same geographical area that day there were 5 jet engines that flamed out. What I heard from several sources that would be in the know at CGF said there were 3 717's that had single flameouts and our dual makes 5.

And as dime said, the latest word is RTN and PWC are looking into heaters for the Emperor's airplane but wouldn't be ready till late 2006 and not for the whole fleet till 2007 sometime.

 

[Hobbes]

""It's never too cold for ice" is their new mantra. I'm going to wait till I see something stamped by NASA to finally judge that statement. It is odd though that in the same geographical area that day there were 5 jet engines that flamed out. What I heard from several sources that would be in the know at CGF said there were 3 717's that had single flameouts and our dual makes 5."

Yall can laugh...but I am gonna say it again...METHANE pocket. As low as .95% concentration in the air will shut down a radial engine...that is LESS THAN 1% concentration. This area of the world has been proven to have large escapes of methane from the Atlantic seafloor and then leave the surface of the ocean and rise through the atmosphere. This ain't no conspiracy theory here....You see if you can find any reason why those other engines shutdown...and the two engines on this Beechjet. Think about the probabilities that 5 turbine engines are gonna shut down in this small of a geographic area, on ONE DAY, within ONE HOUR. Now if you think there wasn't a factor outside of the planes....you probably spend a LOT of money on the lottery.

 

[GravityHater]

Methane? Isn't methane flammable? (or "inflammable")
So instead of a flame out, you should get the big bang of the airways?

 

[Hobbes]

nope...and it is flammable...but I have watched several times on Discovery channel where they were researching a flight of 5 Navy WWII era fighters that went down in the same area just of the east coast of FL. Well, they got a radial engine of the type from these planes, and put it on a test cell. They ran it and when they would get to a concentration of about 0.95% methane in the air they were giving it for combustion, the thing would just shut down. Methane in the air makes the density of a given air pocket much less and I think that has to do with the adverse combustion properties when it is loose in the atmosphere...anyways...I know it sounds out there, but seriously man...I am not talking about UFOs and crop circles here...I am talking about a phenomenon we KNOW occurs...The show on Discovery also had footage of actual leaks of methane from the sea floor in this area, and also how footage from aloft of a methane pocket surfacing...

Now, if you give me some other reason why those engines quit..no problem...I don't have any reason to want this to be true...but this is what I truly believe happened to that beechjet, and also the 3 other jet engines that flamed out in the vicinity in the same hour.

The most important thing is that the crew dead sticked that one in safely...and kudos to them...just another reason those folks at Flops need a raise...they are truly underpaid now.

 

[Quebec]

nope...and it is flammable...but I have watched several times on Discovery channel where they were researching a flight of 5 Navy WWII era fighters that went down in the same area just of the east coast of FL. Well, they got a radial engine of the type from these planes, and put it on a test cell. They ran it and when they would get to a concentration of about 0.95% methane in the air they were giving it for combustion, the thing would just shut down. Methane in the air makes the density of a given air pocket much less and I think that has to do with the adverse combustion properties when it is loose in the atmosphere...anyways...I know it sounds out there, but seriously man...I am not talking about UFOs and crop circles here...I am talking about a phenomenon we KNOW occurs...The show on Discovery also had footage of actual leaks of methane from the sea floor in this area, and also how footage from aloft of a methane pocket surfacing...

Now, if you give me some other reason why those engines quit..no problem...I don't have any reason to want this to be true...but this is what I truly believe happened to that beechjet, and also the 3 other jet engines that flamed out in the vicinity in the same hour.

The most important thing is that the crew dead sticked that one in safely...and kudos to them...just another reason those folks at Flops need a raise...they are truly underpaid now.

I am not type in the Beechjet, nor have I flown (in the front) for 5 years.. but let me introduce you to Occam's Razor: Occam was a 13th century monk who believed that scientific explanations should always focus on the explanation that requires THE LEAST amount of assumptions... given the fact that other incidents have occured other places within the US, would it not point to something very basic with the airplane, that is perhaps also related to an event at TOD? How many other (documented or known) incidents are there? It would seem that fuel heaters are the first place to look / focus, no? The methane seems like the last place we should be looking, or am I missing other flameouts over this Florida coastal zone?

 

[Hobbes]

well...within 1 hour, and within a 100 nm radius....5 jet engines flamed out. 5. And you think both of these engines on the beechjet flamed out because of something on the aircraft? I cannot see how probability would even allow one to think that there wasn't a strong external circumstance which caused these flameouts.

Also....the first time Flops had a dual engine flameout, it was over the gulf....hmmmm....never over kansas...or colorado in the middle of the continent but always right along the coastline.

I know most people think this is crackpot....but right now, I think methane ingestion is what happened. I think 691TA was in the densest area of concentration, and the other aircraft were possibly in an area where the gas was more dispersed and that is why it only flamed out one of their motors....

 

[Joe Jet Pilot]

Just A question

And your source for the news that 5 other airplanes had flameouts is??????

I have yet to see anything in the press about this. I would think it would have gotten some attention.

 

[Quebec]

well...within 1 hour, and within a 100 nm radius....5 jet engines flamed out. 5. And you think both of these engines on the beechjet flamed out because of something on the aircraft? I cannot see how probability would even allow one to think that there wasn't a strong external circumstance which caused these flameouts.

Also....the first time Flops had a dual engine flameout, it was over the gulf....hmmmm....never over kansas...or colorado in the middle of the continent but always right along the coastline.

I know most people think this is crackpot....but right now, I think methane ingestion is what happened. I think 691TA was in the densest area of concentration, and the other aircraft were possibly in an area where the gas was more dispersed and that is why it only flamed out one of their motors....

ah.. that is a good point (the concentration of failures)..but still .. i have a hard time believing you'd get enough gas at 30,000 feet to be a problem...

is there really no other flameout incident in a Beechjet over the continent?

what were the "5 other engines?"

sorry for my lack of background knowledge on this whole thing.. it just doesn't seem like "the explanation that requires the least amount of assumptions"

but the 5 engines is compelling...

 

[guido411]

And your source for the news that 5 other airplanes had flameouts is??????

I have yet to see anything in the press about this. I would think it would have gotten some attention.

This news was all over CGF the day the flameout(s) occured. Since it happened to FlOps they were told about it by the NTSB and FAA investigators that were going over the airplane in JAX. The reason the others weren't publicised was they were single flameouts with no bad outcome. Airlines, just like frax, have their own emergency reporting systems in place. We fill out reports, self-disclose to the FAA, and usually there are no more forms. We don't call the press and tell them about our plight.

 

[Flight_Line]

I seem to remember the five Navy planes that Hobbes is talking about. All in the same area but all lost over a period of five years or so. While methane is flamable IIRC the concentration needs to be around 15%. Interesting theroy though. There's a lot about this planet we still don't understand.

 

[Ultra Grump]

Those WWII planes were not lost in the Gulf, they were lost off FL's east coast.

 

[Hobbes]

right the dauntlesses or whatever were lost over the east coast of florida...I don't know if I said that wrong....

And the other guy had it right...the source for the other 3 failed engines (total of 5 with the beechjet 2) was FAA/NTSB when Flight Options called the report in.

On the discovery channel program they determined a concentration of 0.95% methane in the air would stop combustion....depending on how the pockets of methane disperse or stay together as they ascend in the atmosphere...that is still very feasible I think. If it was a large bubble of methane escaping at the surface, it would have a very high concentration right as it broke sea level.

The first beechjet flight options had dual flameout was right over the gulf...and a side related incident is that the day before flight options had 691TA flameout near JAX, a Sikorsky S76 suffered a DUAL flameout over the water over near Houston....a few miles from an oil rig....both engines flamed out. So in 24 hours, 7 turbine engines fail over water or right near the coast line, and this is all coincidence?

Someone made a statement that the NTSB was looking at environmental factors on the flight options failure and I would sure like to know more about that.

 

[Camperdaddy]

I spoke to someone who has a friend of a friend. Anyway, supposedly the investigation is ongoing. They looked at the amount of prist and it was around .09% per volume. The prist folks said that you could cut the minimum amount required for the airplane in half and the fuel would still not freeze.

The investigators seem to be chasing the theory of core lock. Some sort of temperature variation within the compressors, which temporarily caused the lock. The difficult thing about it is that the blades turned freely on the ground. Raytheon is doing flight tests to try and duplicate the result. I suppose the big bangs heard before engine shutdown are steering them away from the fuel icing theory.

Don't ask me to argue any of these points. I'm just letting you know what I've heard.

 

[Hobbes]

do you know what the prist concentration in the fuel is SUPPOSED to be? you have the number of .09% by volume and that sounds reasonable by comparison to other jets I know...but I don't want to assume what you may be trying to say.

Sudden temperature variation within the compressors will come when the plane doesn't get enough regular air because it has ingested some methane...the temperature will drop very rapidly up there when the motor fails...and core lock may result...and if it doesn't weld the blades to the shroud...maybe then it will spin on the ground...

 

[XPGuy]

If you ask the people that make Prist, they will tell you that Prist is an anti-bacterial - although it has some success as an anti-ice for fuel, they don't guarantee anything.

I believe the problem is in Raytheon's designing a jet that can go to FL450 and has no fuel heaters!

 

[dime line]

"I believe the problem is in Raytheon's designing a jet that can go to FL450 and has no fuel heaters"

Remember this is a Raytheon built not designed airplane, and the 2 planes that flamed out, over the Gulf was at 410 and the one in JAX (Glider) was at 390. But I do agree with the fuel heater thing though

 

[XPGuy]

Good points.

 

[B +]

""It's never too cold for ice" is their new mantra. I'm going to wait till I see something stamped by NASA to finally judge that statement. It is odd though that in the same geographical area that day there were 5 jet engines that flamed out. What I heard from several sources that would be in the know at CGF said there were 3 717's that had single flameouts and our dual makes 5."

Yall can laugh...but I am gonna say it again...METHANE pocket. As low as .95% concentration in the air will shut down a radial engine...that is LESS THAN 1% concentration. This area of the world has been proven to have large escapes of methane from the Atlantic seafloor and then leave the surface of the ocean and rise through the atmosphere. This ain't no conspiracy theory here....You see if you can find any reason why those other engines shutdown...and the two engines on this Beechjet. Think about the probabilities that 5 turbine engines are gonna shut down in this small of a geographic area, on ONE DAY, within ONE HOUR. Now if you think there wasn't a factor outside of the planes....you probably spend a LOT of money on the lottery.

Methane gas from whale farts most likely. They should check to see if there were any whale herds upwind.

BTW before someone tells me a that a group of whales is a "pod" when several pods come together it is a herd. To shut down 5 jet engines I think we are talking a herd of whales.