Flop's Flameout

[Hobbes]

nope...and it is flammable...but I have watched several times on Discovery channel where they were researching a flight of 5 Navy WWII era fighters that went down in the same area just of the east coast of FL. Well, they got a radial engine of the type from these planes, and put it on a test cell. They ran it and when they would get to a concentration of about 0.95% methane in the air they were giving it for combustion, the thing would just shut down. Methane in the air makes the density of a given air pocket much less and I think that has to do with the adverse combustion properties when it is loose in the atmosphere...anyways...I know it sounds out there, but seriously man...I am not talking about UFOs and crop circles here...I am talking about a phenomenon we KNOW occurs...The show on Discovery also had footage of actual leaks of methane from the sea floor in this area, and also how footage from aloft of a methane pocket surfacing...

Now, if you give me some other reason why those engines quit..no problem...I don't have any reason to want this to be true...but this is what I truly believe happened to that beechjet, and also the 3 other jet engines that flamed out in the vicinity in the same hour.

The most important thing is that the crew dead sticked that one in safely...and kudos to them...just another reason those folks at Flops need a raise...they are truly underpaid now.

 

[Quebec]

nope...and it is flammable...but I have watched several times on Discovery channel where they were researching a flight of 5 Navy WWII era fighters that went down in the same area just of the east coast of FL. Well, they got a radial engine of the type from these planes, and put it on a test cell. They ran it and when they would get to a concentration of about 0.95% methane in the air they were giving it for combustion, the thing would just shut down. Methane in the air makes the density of a given air pocket much less and I think that has to do with the adverse combustion properties when it is loose in the atmosphere...anyways...I know it sounds out there, but seriously man...I am not talking about UFOs and crop circles here...I am talking about a phenomenon we KNOW occurs...The show on Discovery also had footage of actual leaks of methane from the sea floor in this area, and also how footage from aloft of a methane pocket surfacing...

Now, if you give me some other reason why those engines quit..no problem...I don't have any reason to want this to be true...but this is what I truly believe happened to that beechjet, and also the 3 other jet engines that flamed out in the vicinity in the same hour.

The most important thing is that the crew dead sticked that one in safely...and kudos to them...just another reason those folks at Flops need a raise...they are truly underpaid now.

I am not type in the Beechjet, nor have I flown (in the front) for 5 years.. but let me introduce you to Occam's Razor: Occam was a 13th century monk who believed that scientific explanations should always focus on the explanation that requires THE LEAST amount of assumptions... given the fact that other incidents have occured other places within the US, would it not point to something very basic with the airplane, that is perhaps also related to an event at TOD? How many other (documented or known) incidents are there? It would seem that fuel heaters are the first place to look / focus, no? The methane seems like the last place we should be looking, or am I missing other flameouts over this Florida coastal zone?

 

[Hobbes]

well...within 1 hour, and within a 100 nm radius....5 jet engines flamed out. 5. And you think both of these engines on the beechjet flamed out because of something on the aircraft? I cannot see how probability would even allow one to think that there wasn't a strong external circumstance which caused these flameouts.

Also....the first time Flops had a dual engine flameout, it was over the gulf....hmmmm....never over kansas...or colorado in the middle of the continent but always right along the coastline.

I know most people think this is crackpot....but right now, I think methane ingestion is what happened. I think 691TA was in the densest area of concentration, and the other aircraft were possibly in an area where the gas was more dispersed and that is why it only flamed out one of their motors....

 

[Joe Jet Pilot]

Just A question

And your source for the news that 5 other airplanes had flameouts is??????

I have yet to see anything in the press about this. I would think it would have gotten some attention.

 

[Quebec]

well...within 1 hour, and within a 100 nm radius....5 jet engines flamed out. 5. And you think both of these engines on the beechjet flamed out because of something on the aircraft? I cannot see how probability would even allow one to think that there wasn't a strong external circumstance which caused these flameouts.

Also....the first time Flops had a dual engine flameout, it was over the gulf....hmmmm....never over kansas...or colorado in the middle of the continent but always right along the coastline.

I know most people think this is crackpot....but right now, I think methane ingestion is what happened. I think 691TA was in the densest area of concentration, and the other aircraft were possibly in an area where the gas was more dispersed and that is why it only flamed out one of their motors....

ah.. that is a good point (the concentration of failures)..but still .. i have a hard time believing you'd get enough gas at 30,000 feet to be a problem...

is there really no other flameout incident in a Beechjet over the continent?

what were the "5 other engines?"

sorry for my lack of background knowledge on this whole thing.. it just doesn't seem like "the explanation that requires the least amount of assumptions"

but the 5 engines is compelling...

 

[guido411]

And your source for the news that 5 other airplanes had flameouts is??????

I have yet to see anything in the press about this. I would think it would have gotten some attention.

This news was all over CGF the day the flameout(s) occured. Since it happened to FlOps they were told about it by the NTSB and FAA investigators that were going over the airplane in JAX. The reason the others weren't publicised was they were single flameouts with no bad outcome. Airlines, just like frax, have their own emergency reporting systems in place. We fill out reports, self-disclose to the FAA, and usually there are no more forms. We don't call the press and tell them about our plight.

 

[Flight_Line]

I seem to remember the five Navy planes that Hobbes is talking about. All in the same area but all lost over a period of five years or so. While methane is flamable IIRC the concentration needs to be around 15%. Interesting theroy though. There's a lot about this planet we still don't understand.

 

[Ultra Grump]

Those WWII planes were not lost in the Gulf, they were lost off FL's east coast.

 

[Hobbes]

right the dauntlesses or whatever were lost over the east coast of florida...I don't know if I said that wrong....

And the other guy had it right...the source for the other 3 failed engines (total of 5 with the beechjet 2) was FAA/NTSB when Flight Options called the report in.

On the discovery channel program they determined a concentration of 0.95% methane in the air would stop combustion....depending on how the pockets of methane disperse or stay together as they ascend in the atmosphere...that is still very feasible I think. If it was a large bubble of methane escaping at the surface, it would have a very high concentration right as it broke sea level.

The first beechjet flight options had dual flameout was right over the gulf...and a side related incident is that the day before flight options had 691TA flameout near JAX, a Sikorsky S76 suffered a DUAL flameout over the water over near Houston....a few miles from an oil rig....both engines flamed out. So in 24 hours, 7 turbine engines fail over water or right near the coast line, and this is all coincidence?

Someone made a statement that the NTSB was looking at environmental factors on the flight options failure and I would sure like to know more about that.

 

[Camperdaddy]

I spoke to someone who has a friend of a friend. Anyway, supposedly the investigation is ongoing. They looked at the amount of prist and it was around .09% per volume. The prist folks said that you could cut the minimum amount required for the airplane in half and the fuel would still not freeze.

The investigators seem to be chasing the theory of core lock. Some sort of temperature variation within the compressors, which temporarily caused the lock. The difficult thing about it is that the blades turned freely on the ground. Raytheon is doing flight tests to try and duplicate the result. I suppose the big bangs heard before engine shutdown are steering them away from the fuel icing theory.

Don't ask me to argue any of these points. I'm just letting you know what I've heard.

 

[Hobbes]

do you know what the prist concentration in the fuel is SUPPOSED to be? you have the number of .09% by volume and that sounds reasonable by comparison to other jets I know...but I don't want to assume what you may be trying to say.

Sudden temperature variation within the compressors will come when the plane doesn't get enough regular air because it has ingested some methane...the temperature will drop very rapidly up there when the motor fails...and core lock may result...and if it doesn't weld the blades to the shroud...maybe then it will spin on the ground...

 

[XPGuy]

If you ask the people that make Prist, they will tell you that Prist is an anti-bacterial - although it has some success as an anti-ice for fuel, they don't guarantee anything.

I believe the problem is in Raytheon's designing a jet that can go to FL450 and has no fuel heaters!

 

[dime line]

"I believe the problem is in Raytheon's designing a jet that can go to FL450 and has no fuel heaters"

Remember this is a Raytheon built not designed airplane, and the 2 planes that flamed out, over the Gulf was at 410 and the one in JAX (Glider) was at 390. But I do agree with the fuel heater thing though

 

[XPGuy]

Good points.

 

[B +]

""It's never too cold for ice" is their new mantra. I'm going to wait till I see something stamped by NASA to finally judge that statement. It is odd though that in the same geographical area that day there were 5 jet engines that flamed out. What I heard from several sources that would be in the know at CGF said there were 3 717's that had single flameouts and our dual makes 5."

Yall can laugh...but I am gonna say it again...METHANE pocket. As low as .95% concentration in the air will shut down a radial engine...that is LESS THAN 1% concentration. This area of the world has been proven to have large escapes of methane from the Atlantic seafloor and then leave the surface of the ocean and rise through the atmosphere. This ain't no conspiracy theory here....You see if you can find any reason why those other engines shutdown...and the two engines on this Beechjet. Think about the probabilities that 5 turbine engines are gonna shut down in this small of a geographic area, on ONE DAY, within ONE HOUR. Now if you think there wasn't a factor outside of the planes....you probably spend a LOT of money on the lottery.

Methane gas from whale farts most likely. They should check to see if there were any whale herds upwind.

BTW before someone tells me a that a group of whales is a "pod" when several pods come together it is a herd. To shut down 5 jet engines I think we are talking a herd of whales.