FLOPS 2 400a Flameouts

[Learsforsale]

We are working on that even as I write

Let me know if you need any help with that.

 

[mazawakhan]

Prist isnt used to reduce the fuels freezing point! Its used to reduce the water in the fuels freezing point!

 

[FracCapt]

Well, it is obvious who you work for! I haven't had any theories but you seem to think that I have all the answers! That's why there are question marks at the end of my lines??? All I was doing was stating the obvious... All aircraft were beechjets, not the only ones with jt15D's and it was the same company.. Floptions. Does that p#ss you off that I can state the facts and you or your company can't debate it??? Does it P#ss you off that your company is going down the tubes and you can't get union on board??

It has never been a secret who I work for...and just because you put question marks at the end of a sentence doesn't mean it's a question???? See how that works?

Yes, the aircraft were beechjets. Beechjets are abominations. They fly ok, but they have all kinds of inherent problems. Trust me, nothing you can say here pisses me off...I couldn't really care less..this is just entertainment at best. Company going down the tubes? Yep...has been for a few years. Can't get a Union on board? Wrong. We HAVE a Union. As a matter of fact, our first negotiating session is going on right now. We have a Union, and the vast majority of us stand behind it 100%.

I was not going to attack you personally but you brought me in here stating that I have all the answers... maybe you are closer to the company and can tell us what you company's NEW procedure is for TOD??? It's a doozie!!

Nope, I can't tell you what the new procedure is. I don't fly the beechjet. I haven't for 6 years. You apparently know what it is...so why not tell everybody? I don't really care enough to ask.

I do my job and go home for my time off. Nothing more, nothing less. I don't worry about the other crap. I used to go above and beyond...but then the company started taking things away and treating us like total sh!t... so now the only things I do above and beyond the minimum requirements of my job are in support of my Union.

 

[Choppy]

Floptions respose which was in accordance with Raytheon was at TOD before you start down turn the Anti ice on and leave it on. Now I don't know about you but I think that answer has nothing to do with prist! Which is why I feel Raytheon is sweeping something under the rug or floptions is doing something out of the ordinary with the aircraft.

 

[pamed19]

Safe to fly in?

I do not want to look over the crews shoulders when I fly.Do the bunch of you think the 400a is safe to fly in or should I stop flying in it?Many,Many thanks

 

[WrknStff]

Actually they have no idea why the engines flamed out. They have theories and that's it. That's why Pratt/Whitney, the NTSB, Raytheon and Flight Options are still working on the issue and also why neither event has had a final report release on it. They are still under investigation.

The new procedures for descent are based on the fact that they have no f-in clue what happened so they pulled this procedure out of their butts. Basically they turn the boost pumps on, the engine anti-ice on, turn on the autoignition and pull the engines back gradually anytime the aircraft has spent any time above 340. Folks could argue about what if anything doing these things would do in practice but that's not the point. Would doing any of these things have prevented the flameouts? Maybe, maybe not. They really have no clue why the engines really went out so it's impossible to say if the new procedures would have done a dang thing. But by making the new procedure they at least can show that they are doing something besides reminding everyone to actually watch the fuelers to ensure they are putting the prist in the fuel every time.

Maybe it has something to do with flying 80 of these things around 1500 hours a year each that might have something to do with finding new and strange stuff going on that has never happened before with that type of plane. No one has ever flown these pieces of crap the way the fractional business does so its no suprise that the one frac that has the most and has been doing it the longest (referring to the BE400, not general frac ops, so save your flaming) is the one that finds the stuff out first. Heck, maybe its the whole Bermuda Triangle thing.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

I do not want to look over the crews shoulders when I fly.Do the bunch of you think the 400a is safe to fly in or should I stop flying in it?Many,Many thanks

Personally, I don't think this is enough to stop flying on them. If you consider the amount of time they fly with this outfit, and the relatively rare case of the flame outs, I wouldn't worry too much.

These are very isolated incidences that the investigators may not even be able to replicate with the 400a. As the last poster mentioned, it has still gone unsolved.

The Boeing 737 has been around for years and has sold well. There are many of them still flying around today. As you might be aware, there was a supposed rudder issue with them which caused unexplained flight deviations, where in some occasions the aircraft attitude was unrecoverable. Even after extensive replication, it still remains a mystery as to why they behaved the way they did, although some changes in preventive maintence have been made. This being the regularity of the lubrication.

 

[Rubber Ducky]

Beechjet Good

Fear of the unknown is completely normal.

New Beechjets are built like tanks thanks to several hundred improvements made by the manufacturer. No aircraft is perfect ESPECIALLY when it is a new design. The Beechjet has evolved and will continue to evolve to be a great fractional aircraft.

We are a group of pilots committed to the safety of our owners as well as our own safety.

Similar occurences have happened in other aircraft types. Do your research; don't take mine or anyone elses statements for complete truth. Be prudent. Many occurrensces have been in military aircraft, no public record. You don't have to believe me on that. But that's what I have heard.

Good luck with your decision to leave the Beechjet. If you were deciding whose airplane to put my family on, my vote would go to any aircraft flown by a Flight Options crew.

 

[pamed19]

400a

I understand that the military has a time limit on how long their version of the 400a can stay at high altitude.Many thanks to all who have replied.

 

[pamed19]

Actually they have no idea why the engines flamed out. They have theories and that's it. That's why Pratt/Whitney, the NTSB, Raytheon and Flight Options are still working on the issue and also why neither event has had a final report release on it. They are still under investigation.

The new procedures for descent are based on the fact that they have no f-in clue what happened so they pulled this procedure out of their butts. Basically they turn the boost pumps on, the engine anti-ice on, turn on the autoignition and pull the engines back gradually anytime the aircraft has spent any time above 340. Folks could argue about what if anything doing these things would do in practice but that's not the point. Would doing any of these things have prevented the flameouts? Maybe, maybe not. They really have no clue why the engines really went out so it's impossible to say if the new procedures would have done a dang thing. But by making the new procedure they at least can show that they are doing something besides reminding everyone to actually watch the fuelers to ensure they are putting the prist in the fuel every time.

Maybe it has something to do with flying 80 of these things around 1500 hours a year each that might have something to do with finding new and strange stuff going on that has never happened before with that type of plane. No one has ever flown these pieces of crap the way the fractional business does so its no suprise that the one frac that has the most and has been doing it the longest (referring to the BE400, not general frac ops, so save your flaming) is the one that finds the stuff out first. Heck, maybe its the whole Bermuda Triangle thing.

I was told by FLOPS that the planes were being flown up to 800 hrs a year.That is how the ownership works out--100 hours for a 1/8th share,200 for a 1/4

 

[HSDriver]

I was told by FLOPS that the planes were being flown up to 800 hrs a year.That is how the ownership works out--100 hours for a 1/8th share,200 for a 1/4

800 Managed hours a year. Thats not counting the repo legs every other trip and the empty legs flying accross the country to go to a maintenence base.

HS

 

[pamed19]

800 Managed hours a year. Thats not counting the repo legs every other trip and the empty legs flying accross the country to go to a maintenence base.

HS

Had not thought of those flights.What about the jet cards?They must have upped usage. I guess since we do not know what caused the flameouts,we do not know if usage is the culprit!

 

[guido411]

I do not want to look over the crews shoulders when I fly.Do the bunch of you think the 400a is safe to fly in or should I stop flying in it?Many,Many thanks

No offense, but my life is WAY more important to me than yours is. If the airplane isn't safe enough for ME to be in, I won't start the engines with YOU in the back. Ask any FLOPs crewmember and they will say the same thing. Sit back, relax, have a cocktail. Welcome aboard.

 

[guido411]

Had not thought of those flights.What about the jet cards?They must have upped usage. I guess since we do not know what caused the flameouts,we do not know if usage is the culprit!

The first flameout occured on a BRAND NEW BE400A. . .er, Hawker 400XP. Useage is NOT the culprit.

 

[ProFracPilot]

The first flameout occured on a BRAND NEW BE400A. . .er, Hawker 400XP. Useage is NOT the culprit.

I believe the term "usage", as discussed regarding the Hawker 400XP (nee, Beechjet), refers more to operational issues that may arise after much "fleet use". If by the term "useage", your meaning is as it relates to "time in service" of a single airframe or set of engines, then I agree with your opinion that total time has absolutely nothing to do with the flameouts. However, FlOps has amassed much more fleet "useage" over a wide range of operating conditions than any other Beechjet operator. I believe that when the research is completed, it will be found that there is a narrow set of operating conditions (power reduction at altitude, OAT, ambient moisture content, etc) where these engines - as installed on the Beechjet - are susceptible to this anomoly.

And no, I'm not an engineer. But I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night...

 

[pamed19]

No offense, but my life is WAY more important to me than yours is. If the airplane isn't safe enough for ME to be in, I won't start the engines with YOU in the back. Ask any FLOPs crewmember and they will say the same thing. Sit back, relax, have a cocktail. Welcome aboard.

Good thought and good advice.Flops crews are great and I have met alot of them.Pleased to fly with them anytime,rain or shine.

 

[dime line]

Hey Pamed19 just remember if your thinking about another Frac, they all do the same thing as Flight Opts with reguard to flying the hell out of the planes.

 

[RNObased]

I certainly will not correct you.I am just a worried passenger!What can I do to make sure the sumping has been done?many thanks

Worried me so much I switched fleets.... hate the 400/beechjunk, the thing is a systems mess. Raytheon should have let this thing die years ago. Now I hear they are going to put proline 21 on it. Like putting a dress on a pig.

 

[dime line]

"Worried me so much I switched fleets"

You mean you upgraded? Payraise?

 

[AceCrackshot]

Worried me so much I switched fleets.... hate the 400/beechjunk, the thing is a systems mess. Raytheon should have let this thing die years ago.

I'm no huge Beechjet booster, but I do believe that this overstates the case by a order of magitude. If you look at 1) the overall fleet safety record and 2) Its general reliability, you have a pretty good aircraft.

The systems are perhaps a little complex, but nothing overwhelming (the fuel and electric come to mind immediately) but both are practically speaking transparent to the crew.

The Beechjet needs:
1) Fuel Heaters
2) Reclinable/more ergonomic pilot seats
3) Larger engines
4) Pro Line 21
5) 18-36" of cabin streach
6) an externally serviceable lav

All these (except 5) are pretty low hanging fruit, if Raytheon could develop and certify derivitives of existing airframes like Cessna can. For whatever reason, they can't, and we are stuck with an aircraft that was probably state of the art in the first Clinton Administration.

We could also use salesmen who would stop telling people that this "Hawker" can do what an actual Hawker can do, mission-wise.

 

[dime line]

Was told in school 2 weeks ago, that adding fuel heaters probably will not happen any time soon because Raytheon would be admitting there is a problem. Just what I heard

 

[AceCrackshot]

Was told in school 2 weeks ago, that adding fuel heaters probably will not happen any time soon because Raytheon would be admitting there is a problem

I don't doubt it. Litigation driven aviation is a bummer. My issue is that during winter, north of the Mason-Dixon line, you can bump into -40 fuel after about an hour and half at altitude. Especially if the fuel lived in a truck before your airplane. Its happened to me a few times, on longer legs.

As far as the flameouts go, I'm personally starting to lean towards a engine driven cause, and as was noted earlier, we might never know the cause...

My biggest heartburn on the flameout thing is the sneaking suspicion I have that the USAF knows more than its saying. There have been hints dropped, but they get all secret-squirrelly when pressed. Everyone loves to play "I've got a secret."

 

[WabiSabi]

Was told in school 2 weeks ago, that adding fuel heaters probably will not happen any time soon because Raytheon would be admitting there is a problem. Just what I heard

it has more to do with P&W than Raytheon. i met a P&W engineer that was working with NetJets to come up with a fuel heater. it's already in progress.

 

[ProFracPilot]

it has more to do with P&W than Raytheon. i met a P&W engineer that was working with NetJets to come up with a fuel heater. it's already in progress.

With all due respect, if it was a cold fuel issue flameouts would be occurring with greater frequency. We would also see flameouts in other aircraft that use the JT15D or a derivative, and lastly it wouldn't be limited to just dual flameouts. P&WC isn't working with just NetJets to come up with a fuel heater, but with several operators to determine a definitive cause so that a true fix can be implemented. The most plausible theory thus far suggests that in certain ambient conditions, there is first stage stator ice accretion (possible if this engine / airframe installation is raising the temp of the inlet air at altitude). This, combined with the airflow changes that occur with power reduction and engine/wing interference at top of descent can cause the engines to burp and flameout. This theory has generated a procedure requiring engine A/I and ignition on at TOD. It is not a definitive fix, but thus far there has not been a flameout in an aircraft utilizing this procedure.

Engine flameout issues in corporate turbojet aircraft are not unheard of. Anyone with experience in CJ610 or CF700 powered airplanes (think 20 series Lear or Falcon 20) know that both have been known to have engine flameouts at altitude. Sometimes it was just the Main Fuel Control (MFC) units that needed tweaking. Falcon pilots know that operationally you NEVER just flipped both engine anti-ice systems to the "OFF" position - to do so was just asking to practice the "Dual Engine Failure in Flight" and "Engine Airstart" checklists.

Pamed19 - Your greatest travel risk - Beechjet or no Beechjet - continues to be your drive to and from the airport.

 

[ToTheStars]

The aircraft was certificated by the FAA. Raytheon and Pratt will do nothing until the FAA starts talking about an emergency AD that would ground the vehicle or limit its environmental & performance capabilities (flight into visible moisture, alititude, and temperature limits). There is a 'smoking gun', but it will require actual flight test with instrumentation. No one wants to pay for it and no one wants the answer because of the impact to the operators.

The best advice is to keep your fuel temperature as warm as possible, minimize long duration high altitude flight (above FL350), use your ignitors prior to power reduction from high altitude, very gently remove power from high altitude descents, and keep a watchful eye on the FBO fuel truck for appropriate use of Prist.

Most importantly, when your at Flight Safety and Simuflight, learn how to fly the vehicle from initial power reduction at altitude, down an ILS without ever touching the power levers! Learn those speeds to fly to nail the approach and what configurations to use & when!!!

 

[RNObased]

I'm no huge Beechjet booster, but I do believe that this overstates the case by a order of magitude. If you look at 1) the overall fleet safety record and 2) Its general reliability, you have a pretty good aircraft.

We could also use salesmen who would stop telling people that this "Hawker" can do what an actual Hawker can do, mission-wise.

Maybe it was overstated, however that fact remains that jet is a bit of a mess. There are so many silly things on it that I don't even want to get into it. Beside the fact that no one knows why the engines flame out, or no one is talking.

I heard that Pratt would love for this jet to go away so that the engine on it could die. It is a fuel hog and is under powered above a takeoff altitude of say 3500'.

Defend it if you want, the fact remains it is selling lilke crap at NJA and that some of the people who buy it feel like they have been lied to about what it will do. Which is never good...

 

[pamed19]

very helpful info

Many thanks to all.I have learned alot.

 

[dime line]

""Maybe it was overstated, however that fact remains that jet is a bit of a mess""


Sounds like YOUR opinion, not your experience!!


""I heard that Pratt would love for this jet to go away so that the engine on it could die. It is a fuel hog and is under powered above a takeoff altitude of say 3500'. ""

I really don't think you fly a BeechJet. And ask Cessna how they feel about their P&W JT-15D-5,......check that out, the same engine in the BeechJet...

""the fact remains it is selling lilke crap at NJA and that some of the people who buy it feel like they have been lied """

No $#it, your sales people sold the Beechjet as a "Replacement" for the Ultra, the only upgrade is speed that is it. I've been flying the BJ for 7 yrs now and our owners love the plane. But the key is our owners know how to pack for this plane, unlike the Ultra which everybody knows has more baggage room.

Oh and ""some of the people who buy it feel like they have been lied to about what it will do""

Dude, were talking sales people here, If there being lied to that isn't Raytheons fault, you need to look in your own house. Do you, for one minute, think you sales people are different from any-others.

 

[RNObased]

""Maybe it was overstated, however that fact remains that jet is a bit of a mess""


Sounds like YOUR opinion, not your experience!!


""I heard that Pratt would love for this jet to go away so that the engine on it could die. It is a fuel hog and is under powered above a takeoff altitude of say 3500'. ""

I really don't think you fly a BeechJet. And ask Cessna how they feel about their P&W JT-15D-5,......check that out, the same engine in the BeechJet...

""the fact remains it is selling lilke crap at NJA and that some of the people who buy it feel like they have been lied """

No $#it, your sales people sold the Beechjet as a "Replacement" for the Ultra, the only upgrade is speed that is it. I've been flying the BJ for 7 yrs now and our owners love the plane. But the key is our owners know how to pack for this plane, unlike the Ultra which everybody knows has more baggage room.

Oh and ""some of the people who buy it feel like they have been lied to about what it will do""

Dude, were talking sales people here, If there being lied to that isn't Raytheons fault, you need to look in your own house. Do you, for one minute, think you sales people are different from any-others.

Dime Line,
Think what you want, I flew the POS and hated every minute of it.

Also genius that engine is different then the one on the Cessnas, better fuel burn more thrust. The dash makes all the difference. If you would have flown something besides the Beechjunk you would know that. The statement about the engines came directly from a Pratt rep.

I thank god, that I work for a company that has enough different types of jet that I'm not stuck in that thing.

The issue with the sales guy's lying is that it always comes back on the pilots.

Fly the thing for another 7 years, I don't care. I won't be. Defend it if you want, in my world it is a POS.

 

[dime line]

Sure RNO whatever you say