FLOPS 2 400a Flameouts

[Coool Hand Luke]

What I heard last week while talking to a FLTOPS crew:

Prist was not an issue on the first one, although commonly reported as such.
Second one was not a prist issue either. They said Raytheon believes it is a stator icing issue (no stator AI on the Beechjet) disturbing airflow into the LP compressor and thus the flameouts. By the way, I guess the guys on the second dual-flamout dead-sticked it into JAX with peanut gyro only and a 1000' ceiling and only blew one main gear tire. Nice job guys. By the way, sometime after landing the engines were restarted with no problems.

 

[pamed19]

What I heard last week while talking to a FLTOPS crew:

Prist was not an issue on the first one, although commonly reported as such.
Second one was not a prist issue either. They said Raytheon believes it is a stator icing issue (no stator AI on the Beechjet) disturbing airflow into the LP compressor and thus the flameouts. By the way, I guess the guys on the second dual-flamout dead-sticked it into JAX with peanut gyro only and a 1000' ceiling and only blew one main gear tire. Nice job guys. By the way, sometime after landing the engines were restarted with no problems.

I would be happy to fly with both sets of pilots anytime.I do believe my heart would not have kept going after what they went through.Many thanks to all for their comments.

 

[HSDriver]

The Truth

What I heard last week while talking to a FLTOPS crew:

Prist was not an issue on the first one, although commonly reported as such.
Second one was not a prist issue either. They said Raytheon believes it is a stator icing issue (no stator AI on the Beechjet) disturbing airflow into the LP compressor and thus the flameouts. By the way, I guess the guys on the second dual-flamout dead-sticked it into JAX with peanut gyro only and a 1000' ceiling and only blew one main gear tire. Nice job guys. By the way, sometime after landing the engines were restarted with no problems.

Yes, this is what I heard from talking to the pilot that was flying. If it was due to prist/ lack of sumping, etc, there would be jets flaming out all over the place. How many corporate/charter guys do you see out draining their jets' sumps every morning? You guys can say whatever you wish but I've been flying jets for a while at multiple companies and it just is not done by crews.

And Pamed19... No offense, but if you feel like you have to double check your flight crews' preflight then you need to be flying somewhere else. Like somebody said, you should be worried more about their duty day, how much they had to rush to pick you up on time, how they have to rush your flight to get to the next one on time, proper feeding, etc, etc, etc...

HS

 

[Choppy]

So...why don't you tell us your theory, oh enlightened one... By the way....Netjets has not been operating the Beechjet nearly as long as Options, nor do they have nearly as many of them...therefore, they have not flown anywhere near as many hours.

I have no idea what caused either dual flameout. I can speculate, but I'm not that much of an idiot to think that I can determine the cause without knowing all pertinent information...but, apparently, you feel you can...so enlighten us.

Well, now you get a couple of other people that have talked to the pilots and they have said also that it was not prist! The reason that I am wound up about this is because Raytheon doesn't want to face reality that they might have a problem. They just want to blame it on the pilots about the prist issue. They have sold hundreds of beechs to forgein countries and not one has flamed out. Yes, flops flys alot but just try and firgure out how many hours this airplane has on it and you have to go all the way back to the diamond. I just don't buy the prist issue, that's all! As I said before, there is something really strange about it only happening to Floptions. I know a lot of operators that put 500 to 650 hours on the beechs a year so don't start with the "They fly more than anyone else" theory!

 

[h25b]

Well, now you get a couple of other people that have talked to the pilots and they have said also that it was not prist! The reason that I am wound up about this is because Raytheon doesn't want to face reality that they might have a problem. They just want to blame it on the pilots about the prist issue. They have sold hundreds of beechs to forgein countries and not one has flamed out. Yes, flops flys alot but just try and firgure out how many hours this airplane has on it and you have to go all the way back to the diamond. I just don't buy the prist issue, that's all! As I said before, there is something really strange about it only happening to Floptions. I know a lot of operators that put 500 to 650 hours on the beechs a year so don't start with the "They fly more than anyone else" theory!

I am wondering who else besides FLIOPS has experienced the flameouts ??? I have only heard of the Flight Options ones. I just think it is sort of odd that it has happened to on operator twice. Sure they put a lot of hours on the ones they have, but it still seems strange to me.

 

[FracCapt]

As I said before, there is something really strange about it only happening to Floptions. I know a lot of operators that put 500 to 650 hours on the beechs a year so don't start with the "They fly more than anyone else" theory!

I'll say it again....enlighten us with YOUR theory on what's happening. You indicate that it's something that Options crews are doing wrong...what would that be?

As for the 500-650 hours per year thing....all I was getting at is that when you compare a flight department that puts 500-650 hours a year on a Beechjet, as opposed to a company that puts 50,000+ hours per year on many Beechjets....who do you think is bound to have more issues?

 

[pamed19]

Other dual flameouts

I have read that a 400a had the same problem in Brazil and a CitationII with the same engines did the same thing last summer in Alaska.

 

[pamed19]

Suggestion: Sell your share in the 400A and buy a Sovereign.

QUICK!

You will not regret it.

We are working on that even as I write

 

[Choppy]

I'll say it again....enlighten us with YOUR theory on what's happening. You indicate that it's something that Options crews are doing wrong...what would that be?

As for the 500-650 hours per year thing....all I was getting at is that when you compare a flight department that puts 500-650 hours a year on a Beechjet, as opposed to a company that puts 50,000+ hours per year on many Beechjets....who do you think is bound to have more issues?

Well, it is obvious who you work for! I haven't had any theories but you seem to think that I have all the answers! That's why there are question marks at the end of my lines??? All I was doing was stating the obvious... All aircraft were beechjets, not the only ones with jt15D's and it was the same company.. Floptions. Does that p#ss you off that I can state the facts and you or your company can't debate it??? Does it P#ss you off that your company is going down the tubes and you can't get union on board??

I was not going to attack you personally but you brought me in here stating that I have all the answers... maybe you are closer to the company and can tell us what you company's NEW procedure is for TOD??? It's a doozie!!

 

[greygoose]

We are working on that even as I write

Did you build a bomb shelter under your house?

 

[Learsforsale]

We are working on that even as I write

Let me know if you need any help with that.

 

[mazawakhan]

Prist isnt used to reduce the fuels freezing point! Its used to reduce the water in the fuels freezing point!

 

[FracCapt]

Well, it is obvious who you work for! I haven't had any theories but you seem to think that I have all the answers! That's why there are question marks at the end of my lines??? All I was doing was stating the obvious... All aircraft were beechjets, not the only ones with jt15D's and it was the same company.. Floptions. Does that p#ss you off that I can state the facts and you or your company can't debate it??? Does it P#ss you off that your company is going down the tubes and you can't get union on board??

It has never been a secret who I work for...and just because you put question marks at the end of a sentence doesn't mean it's a question???? See how that works?

Yes, the aircraft were beechjets. Beechjets are abominations. They fly ok, but they have all kinds of inherent problems. Trust me, nothing you can say here pisses me off...I couldn't really care less..this is just entertainment at best. Company going down the tubes? Yep...has been for a few years. Can't get a Union on board? Wrong. We HAVE a Union. As a matter of fact, our first negotiating session is going on right now. We have a Union, and the vast majority of us stand behind it 100%.

I was not going to attack you personally but you brought me in here stating that I have all the answers... maybe you are closer to the company and can tell us what you company's NEW procedure is for TOD??? It's a doozie!!

Nope, I can't tell you what the new procedure is. I don't fly the beechjet. I haven't for 6 years. You apparently know what it is...so why not tell everybody? I don't really care enough to ask.

I do my job and go home for my time off. Nothing more, nothing less. I don't worry about the other crap. I used to go above and beyond...but then the company started taking things away and treating us like total sh!t... so now the only things I do above and beyond the minimum requirements of my job are in support of my Union.

 

[Choppy]

Floptions respose which was in accordance with Raytheon was at TOD before you start down turn the Anti ice on and leave it on. Now I don't know about you but I think that answer has nothing to do with prist! Which is why I feel Raytheon is sweeping something under the rug or floptions is doing something out of the ordinary with the aircraft.

 

[pamed19]

Safe to fly in?

I do not want to look over the crews shoulders when I fly.Do the bunch of you think the 400a is safe to fly in or should I stop flying in it?Many,Many thanks

 

[WrknStff]

Actually they have no idea why the engines flamed out. They have theories and that's it. That's why Pratt/Whitney, the NTSB, Raytheon and Flight Options are still working on the issue and also why neither event has had a final report release on it. They are still under investigation.

The new procedures for descent are based on the fact that they have no f-in clue what happened so they pulled this procedure out of their butts. Basically they turn the boost pumps on, the engine anti-ice on, turn on the autoignition and pull the engines back gradually anytime the aircraft has spent any time above 340. Folks could argue about what if anything doing these things would do in practice but that's not the point. Would doing any of these things have prevented the flameouts? Maybe, maybe not. They really have no clue why the engines really went out so it's impossible to say if the new procedures would have done a dang thing. But by making the new procedure they at least can show that they are doing something besides reminding everyone to actually watch the fuelers to ensure they are putting the prist in the fuel every time.

Maybe it has something to do with flying 80 of these things around 1500 hours a year each that might have something to do with finding new and strange stuff going on that has never happened before with that type of plane. No one has ever flown these pieces of crap the way the fractional business does so its no suprise that the one frac that has the most and has been doing it the longest (referring to the BE400, not general frac ops, so save your flaming) is the one that finds the stuff out first. Heck, maybe its the whole Bermuda Triangle thing.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

I do not want to look over the crews shoulders when I fly.Do the bunch of you think the 400a is safe to fly in or should I stop flying in it?Many,Many thanks

Personally, I don't think this is enough to stop flying on them. If you consider the amount of time they fly with this outfit, and the relatively rare case of the flame outs, I wouldn't worry too much.

These are very isolated incidences that the investigators may not even be able to replicate with the 400a. As the last poster mentioned, it has still gone unsolved.

The Boeing 737 has been around for years and has sold well. There are many of them still flying around today. As you might be aware, there was a supposed rudder issue with them which caused unexplained flight deviations, where in some occasions the aircraft attitude was unrecoverable. Even after extensive replication, it still remains a mystery as to why they behaved the way they did, although some changes in preventive maintence have been made. This being the regularity of the lubrication.

 

[Rubber Ducky]

Beechjet Good

Fear of the unknown is completely normal.

New Beechjets are built like tanks thanks to several hundred improvements made by the manufacturer. No aircraft is perfect ESPECIALLY when it is a new design. The Beechjet has evolved and will continue to evolve to be a great fractional aircraft.

We are a group of pilots committed to the safety of our owners as well as our own safety.

Similar occurences have happened in other aircraft types. Do your research; don't take mine or anyone elses statements for complete truth. Be prudent. Many occurrensces have been in military aircraft, no public record. You don't have to believe me on that. But that's what I have heard.

Good luck with your decision to leave the Beechjet. If you were deciding whose airplane to put my family on, my vote would go to any aircraft flown by a Flight Options crew.

 

[pamed19]

400a

I understand that the military has a time limit on how long their version of the 400a can stay at high altitude.Many thanks to all who have replied.

 

[pamed19]

Actually they have no idea why the engines flamed out. They have theories and that's it. That's why Pratt/Whitney, the NTSB, Raytheon and Flight Options are still working on the issue and also why neither event has had a final report release on it. They are still under investigation.

The new procedures for descent are based on the fact that they have no f-in clue what happened so they pulled this procedure out of their butts. Basically they turn the boost pumps on, the engine anti-ice on, turn on the autoignition and pull the engines back gradually anytime the aircraft has spent any time above 340. Folks could argue about what if anything doing these things would do in practice but that's not the point. Would doing any of these things have prevented the flameouts? Maybe, maybe not. They really have no clue why the engines really went out so it's impossible to say if the new procedures would have done a dang thing. But by making the new procedure they at least can show that they are doing something besides reminding everyone to actually watch the fuelers to ensure they are putting the prist in the fuel every time.

Maybe it has something to do with flying 80 of these things around 1500 hours a year each that might have something to do with finding new and strange stuff going on that has never happened before with that type of plane. No one has ever flown these pieces of crap the way the fractional business does so its no suprise that the one frac that has the most and has been doing it the longest (referring to the BE400, not general frac ops, so save your flaming) is the one that finds the stuff out first. Heck, maybe its the whole Bermuda Triangle thing.

I was told by FLOPS that the planes were being flown up to 800 hrs a year.That is how the ownership works out--100 hours for a 1/8th share,200 for a 1/4