FLOPS 2 400a Flameouts

[pamed19]

Anything new on this ? Any reports on a cause?.I fly as a FLOPS passenger on the 400a and the incidents worry me.

 

[B1900FO]

Anything new on this ? Any reports on a cause?.I fly as a FLOPS passenger on the 400a and the incidents worry me.

I'm doing contract work on a Beechjet now and the guy I'm flying with told me that it was because guys weren't sumping their fuel tanks. We sumped ours before a trip the other day and got quite a bit of water out of them. I could be all wrong but I do believe it's because the water would freeze and then when it would get to the engine, it flamed out.

Correct me if i'm wrong...

 

[pamed19]

I certainly will not correct you.I am just a worried passenger!What can I do to make sure the sumping has been done?many thanks

 

[FLYLOW22]

Heard somewhere that Raytheon is fitting new production 400XPs with fuel heaters.

 

[greygoose]

I'm doing contract work on a Beechjet now and the guy I'm flying with told me that it was because guys weren't sumping their fuel tanks. We sumped ours before a trip the other day and got quite a bit of water out of them. I could be all wrong but I do believe it's because the water would freeze and then when it would get to the engine, it flamed out.

Correct me if i'm wrong...

If sumping would be the problem, that would mean every airplane with the with the same JT15D-5 enignes would be flaming out. The BJ is not the only airplane with these engines. On top of this, if sumping was to be the major culprit every jet flying would be in danger of flaming out. Has anyone noticed a airline pilot out there sumping their airplane. In consideration they do fly a lot, but they don't fly continously.

 

[Bjetset2]

Worried Passenger

Yes there may be contaminant in the fuel. Make sure the airplane is fueled with an anti-icing additive (PRIST) since they don't have fuel heaters. And ask the crew if it has been sumped recently. It is your right as a customer.

 

[b350capt]

Its not the sumping....its because they' didnt receive the anti-ice additive in the fuel load. At -60C even with sumping in an aircraft without fuel heaters...you still run a significant risk of flameout.

 

[400pilot]

I'm doing contract work on a Beechjet now and the guy I'm flying with told me that it was because guys weren't sumping their fuel tanks

No, the tanks are sumped by mx weekly. Pilots may sump when they feel that its needed.

The 1st flame out was due to not enough prist being in the fuel. It was supposed to be pre-mixed and it wasn't. Bad luck.....

The reason for the 2nd is still unknown.

 

[Bjetset2]

Agreed

I agree BE350 Captain. The Prist was the main point of my post. And yes you are correct Jet A does have it's own freeze point regardless of water content. However with water the freeze point is higher in terms of temperature, but your point is taken. I'd still make sure both were done if I was an Options passenger, to be the most safe I could be.

JP

 

[guido411]

The 1st flame out was due to not enough prist being in the fuel. It was supposed to be pre-mixed and it wasn't. Bad luck.....

The reason for the 2nd is still unknown.

Are you telling me that you believe the first OPT flameout was the FIRST airplane in the history of the JT15D that didnt get the required amount of prist? I find this highly unlikely. Surely there have been airplanes with the JT15D that have gone to Mexico or BFE that haven't had Prist available and have flown without incident without it. I don't buy the Prist excuse anymore either. I don't really agree that a slug of ice went through both engines at the same time on two separate occasions. IMO the slug should have stopped at the filters and then the fuel would have automatically by-passed the filter. I gotta say I'm with the environmental factors theory. I.e. no anti-ice on at high altitude in/above visible moisture, etc.

 

[Fozzy]

Sump?!? Do the 400 guys do that?!?
Not being a wise as!s, but we have never, and I mean never sumped a Ultra. Mx might, but on the line we don't touch the things. They may not stop sumping if you do.

Now as far as Prist goes, we now are making sure it is being added. So far, in the last 2 months, I have caught 3 that were not adding or broken. And one truck started but broke during fueling. My FO caught it after about 300 gals. Sucked for the FBO, had to unload the whole thing and start over.

Sump, funny.

 

[400pilot]

Are you telling me that you believe the first OPT flameout was the FIRST airplane in the history of the JT15D that didnt get the required amount of prist?

Where did I say that? What I believe is irrelevent. For those who don't know, this is what happened:

The airplane was topped off in SDF(Louisville) before going to DUC(Duncan). Enough fuel was then taken on to go to SRQ (or APF or wherever they were going.) After 2 hours at altitude, they pulled the power back to descend and both engines stopped running. They were also in severe clear. 1 was restarted and they landed in SRQ.

The feds checked the fuel and found there was virtually no prist in it. Traced it back to SDF, which is supposed to be pre-mixed.....

The NTSB working with Raytheon determined the cause.

Incidentally, I have also flown airplanes without prist, but never for extended periods of time at high altitudes. Prist is used for a reason....what do you think would happen if it wasn't in the fuel?

Also, prist and water in the tanks apparently had no factor in the 2nd...draw your own conclusions.

 

[Choppy]

I don't buy the prist theory. The difference between fuel freezing and fuel + prist freezing is about 4 degrees C. -42 and -46 I think. The funny thing is when you ask Flighsafety what you should do when you are at 410 for 2 hours and your fuel temp gauge reads -45 C, all they say is you should decend to keep the temp from exceeding the red line on the cold side??? Next time your flying keep an eye on the guage because that tells you where the freezing point is on fuel.

 

[400pilot]

Well, I guess if the no-prist fuel reached -42 then it would freeze......

 

[dime line]

Yo Choppy you don't have to believe in the Prist theory, but the first "Gulf" flame out, was shown there wasnt enough prist in the plane.

 

[Choppy]

Ok, there was no prist in the plane. So, has the actual ntsb report come out stating that the actual reason for the dual flameout was no prist? Why were the motors running just fine until they pulled the power back to start decent?? Did the ice just decide to form and at that very moment be released??? Why do they preach to jet drivers to not slam the power levers back at altitude?? I'm just suprised that the only problems with the beechjet having dual flameouts is Floptions!! All the military and all the corporate beechjets and not one has had a flameout with the final verdict from the ntsb being no prist!! There is another reason, but no prist isn't it. Netjets has had not one problem. JMHO!

 

[C680]

Scary

Anything new on this ? Any reports on a cause?.I fly as a FLOPS passenger on the 400a and the incidents worry me.

Suggestion: Sell your share in the 400A and buy a Sovereign.

QUICK!

You will not regret it.

 

[IFLYHI]

My two Beechjet Stories

Both of these incidents happened in RK330

#1 – Filled up at LWM, and then headed for the west coast. The fuel truck that filled us up had a prist injector pump that needed to be primed, so it wasn’t pumping any prist. I found out about this when I got back from my west coast trip. We were about 5 minutes from our TOD, going to FAR for fuel, when the left fuel filter bypass light came on. I confirmed that the filter was bypassing by pulling back the power lever slightly, which made the light go out. Pushing the lever forward made the light come back on. The light stayed on at progressively lower power settings, and it was on at idle by the time we landed in FAR. The engines ran fine without incident. The mechanics in FAR were on lunch break, so there was about an hour delay before the fuselage filters were removed. They both looked like new. I think that the ice crystals that had blocked the filter had melted and “re-entrained” into the jetfuel. There was no water or sediment in the bottom of either filter bowl. We replaced both filters, and had no further issues. After that incident, I became better about monitoring the fuel truck, and ensuring that Prist is really being pumped.

#2 – Flying from FMY to BED, in the clouds most of the way because of T-storm activity along the east coast. We started our descent over NYC, and got a yellow A/S miss-compare light after a few hundred feet. I checked the two PFD’s and found a 40kt difference. Let me back up and say that this incident occurred after Raytheon’s loss of airspeed AD, which requires a flight manual supplement, and adds the memory items to the checklist. However, at the time of my incident, (or was it an occurrence?), Flight Safety was not teaching “loss of airspeed” and had no reference to it in any of their manuals or checklists. So anyway… back to my story – There we were, over NYC, IMC, moderate turbulence when the Pilots PFD went black. To be totally accurate, it wasn’t all black, it had a bunch of cool looking red X’s all over it! No, it wasn’t just the airspeed and altitude that went black, it was everything; no attitude, heading, airspeed or altitude. After the requisite “OH ********************”, I began to search for something to turn on to solve this dilemma. The only thing I came up with was the engine, wing and hstab heat, so I turned them all on. Just about that time, the airplane started a moderate dutch roll, and the hstab fail light came on. Now I’m really scratching my head trying to figure out what the heck is going on with the airplane. Then the radar shut down, which wouldn’t have been a big deal except we were using it to pick our way around some level 4 and 5 T-Storms. I thought that the PF may have kicked the yaw damper off when he disengaged the A/P, but I checked it three times, and the switch was on. So I declared an emergency, got some vectors, and we kept on going down. The right side PFD never went black, but the data it was displaying was definitely not reliable. So we were left to descend with the peanut attitude and altitude. The peanut A/S was on 0. As we descended through the low 30’s, things started coming back online, and by the time we were down to 25K, everything was back to normal. In case your wondering, the ADC has an output to the AHRS computer, the YD computer, the Hstab heat computer and the radar. All of those systems will probably be affected during “loss of airspeed”.

So now to the relevant point of this long rant. I was recently at SimuFlite DAL for recurrent, and told this story. There was a FLOPS pilot there who had a very similar experience. The only additional thing he experienced was a “loud bang” from the rear of the aircraft near the top of the descent. He didn’t have any engine issues, and maintenance never found anything wrong with the airplane.

Then I was reading the NTSB prelim report of the second “dual flameout”:
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20060104X00004&key=1
and noticed that the pilots said:

“The pilots reported that after completing the checklists after the engines lost power, they noted that the standby air speed indicator had gone to zero until the airplane had descended through FL 330 where it resumed indicating an airspeed.”

I believe that the only way for the standby airspeed to go to zero is for the right side pitot tube to be clogged/frozen.

So is it possible that there might be a connection between “loss of airspeed” and “dual flameout”? Does any part of the engine get any input from the ADC?

Could frozen pitots be causing engine flameouts? My guess is probably not, but its at least as plausible as methane gas! J

 

[FracCapt]

Ok, there was no prist in the plane. So, has the actual ntsb report come out stating that the actual reason for the dual flameout was no prist? Why were the motors running just fine until they pulled the power back to start decent?? Did the ice just decide to form and at that very moment be released??? Why do they preach to jet drivers to not slam the power levers back at altitude?? I'm just suprised that the only problems with the beechjet having dual flameouts is Floptions!! All the military and all the corporate beechjets and not one has had a flameout with the final verdict from the ntsb being no prist!! There is another reason, but no prist isn't it. Netjets has had not one problem. JMHO!

So...why don't you tell us your theory, oh enlightened one... By the way....Netjets has not been operating the Beechjet nearly as long as Options, nor do they have nearly as many of them...therefore, they have not flown anywhere near as many hours.

I have no idea what caused either dual flameout. I can speculate, but I'm not that much of an idiot to think that I can determine the cause without knowing all pertinent information...but, apparently, you feel you can...so enlighten us.

 

[PHX767]

Dear Worried Passenger,

I certainly will not correct you.I am just a worried passenger!What can I do to make sure the sumping has been done?many thanks

By all means ask the crew if they have drained the sumps and if they checked to see if the fuel had Prist injected! Ask them to show you the prist meter in the cockpit, too. If they pretend they don't know, insist!

Then ask them how many hours they have, and how much experience in the Beechjet. Crews love to talk about how many flying hours they have!

But if you really want to get scared, ask them how long they have been on duty. Or when the last time they had a meal, or a good night's sleep. And be sure to ask how many MEL's are on the plane.

 

[Coool Hand Luke]

What I heard last week while talking to a FLTOPS crew:

Prist was not an issue on the first one, although commonly reported as such.
Second one was not a prist issue either. They said Raytheon believes it is a stator icing issue (no stator AI on the Beechjet) disturbing airflow into the LP compressor and thus the flameouts. By the way, I guess the guys on the second dual-flamout dead-sticked it into JAX with peanut gyro only and a 1000' ceiling and only blew one main gear tire. Nice job guys. By the way, sometime after landing the engines were restarted with no problems.

 

[pamed19]

What I heard last week while talking to a FLTOPS crew:

Prist was not an issue on the first one, although commonly reported as such.
Second one was not a prist issue either. They said Raytheon believes it is a stator icing issue (no stator AI on the Beechjet) disturbing airflow into the LP compressor and thus the flameouts. By the way, I guess the guys on the second dual-flamout dead-sticked it into JAX with peanut gyro only and a 1000' ceiling and only blew one main gear tire. Nice job guys. By the way, sometime after landing the engines were restarted with no problems.

I would be happy to fly with both sets of pilots anytime.I do believe my heart would not have kept going after what they went through.Many thanks to all for their comments.

 

[HSDriver]

The Truth

What I heard last week while talking to a FLTOPS crew:

Prist was not an issue on the first one, although commonly reported as such.
Second one was not a prist issue either. They said Raytheon believes it is a stator icing issue (no stator AI on the Beechjet) disturbing airflow into the LP compressor and thus the flameouts. By the way, I guess the guys on the second dual-flamout dead-sticked it into JAX with peanut gyro only and a 1000' ceiling and only blew one main gear tire. Nice job guys. By the way, sometime after landing the engines were restarted with no problems.

Yes, this is what I heard from talking to the pilot that was flying. If it was due to prist/ lack of sumping, etc, there would be jets flaming out all over the place. How many corporate/charter guys do you see out draining their jets' sumps every morning? You guys can say whatever you wish but I've been flying jets for a while at multiple companies and it just is not done by crews.

And Pamed19... No offense, but if you feel like you have to double check your flight crews' preflight then you need to be flying somewhere else. Like somebody said, you should be worried more about their duty day, how much they had to rush to pick you up on time, how they have to rush your flight to get to the next one on time, proper feeding, etc, etc, etc...

HS

 

[Choppy]

So...why don't you tell us your theory, oh enlightened one... By the way....Netjets has not been operating the Beechjet nearly as long as Options, nor do they have nearly as many of them...therefore, they have not flown anywhere near as many hours.

I have no idea what caused either dual flameout. I can speculate, but I'm not that much of an idiot to think that I can determine the cause without knowing all pertinent information...but, apparently, you feel you can...so enlighten us.

Well, now you get a couple of other people that have talked to the pilots and they have said also that it was not prist! The reason that I am wound up about this is because Raytheon doesn't want to face reality that they might have a problem. They just want to blame it on the pilots about the prist issue. They have sold hundreds of beechs to forgein countries and not one has flamed out. Yes, flops flys alot but just try and firgure out how many hours this airplane has on it and you have to go all the way back to the diamond. I just don't buy the prist issue, that's all! As I said before, there is something really strange about it only happening to Floptions. I know a lot of operators that put 500 to 650 hours on the beechs a year so don't start with the "They fly more than anyone else" theory!

 

[h25b]

Well, now you get a couple of other people that have talked to the pilots and they have said also that it was not prist! The reason that I am wound up about this is because Raytheon doesn't want to face reality that they might have a problem. They just want to blame it on the pilots about the prist issue. They have sold hundreds of beechs to forgein countries and not one has flamed out. Yes, flops flys alot but just try and firgure out how many hours this airplane has on it and you have to go all the way back to the diamond. I just don't buy the prist issue, that's all! As I said before, there is something really strange about it only happening to Floptions. I know a lot of operators that put 500 to 650 hours on the beechs a year so don't start with the "They fly more than anyone else" theory!

I am wondering who else besides FLIOPS has experienced the flameouts ??? I have only heard of the Flight Options ones. I just think it is sort of odd that it has happened to on operator twice. Sure they put a lot of hours on the ones they have, but it still seems strange to me.

 

[FracCapt]

As I said before, there is something really strange about it only happening to Floptions. I know a lot of operators that put 500 to 650 hours on the beechs a year so don't start with the "They fly more than anyone else" theory!

I'll say it again....enlighten us with YOUR theory on what's happening. You indicate that it's something that Options crews are doing wrong...what would that be?

As for the 500-650 hours per year thing....all I was getting at is that when you compare a flight department that puts 500-650 hours a year on a Beechjet, as opposed to a company that puts 50,000+ hours per year on many Beechjets....who do you think is bound to have more issues?

 

[pamed19]

Other dual flameouts

I have read that a 400a had the same problem in Brazil and a CitationII with the same engines did the same thing last summer in Alaska.

 

[pamed19]

Suggestion: Sell your share in the 400A and buy a Sovereign.

QUICK!

You will not regret it.

We are working on that even as I write

 

[Choppy]

I'll say it again....enlighten us with YOUR theory on what's happening. You indicate that it's something that Options crews are doing wrong...what would that be?

As for the 500-650 hours per year thing....all I was getting at is that when you compare a flight department that puts 500-650 hours a year on a Beechjet, as opposed to a company that puts 50,000+ hours per year on many Beechjets....who do you think is bound to have more issues?

Well, it is obvious who you work for! I haven't had any theories but you seem to think that I have all the answers! That's why there are question marks at the end of my lines??? All I was doing was stating the obvious... All aircraft were beechjets, not the only ones with jt15D's and it was the same company.. Floptions. Does that p#ss you off that I can state the facts and you or your company can't debate it??? Does it P#ss you off that your company is going down the tubes and you can't get union on board??

I was not going to attack you personally but you brought me in here stating that I have all the answers... maybe you are closer to the company and can tell us what you company's NEW procedure is for TOD??? It's a doozie!!

 

[greygoose]

We are working on that even as I write

Did you build a bomb shelter under your house?