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FLOPS 2 400a Flameouts
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pamed19 said:
I'm doing contract work on a Beechjet now and the guy I'm flying with told me that it was because guys weren't sumping their fuel tanks. We sumped ours before a trip the other day and got quite a bit of water out of them. I could be all wrong but I do believe it's because the water would freeze and then when it would get to the engine, it flamed out.
Correct me if i'm wrong...
If sumping would be the problem, that would mean every airplane with the with the same JT15D-5 enignes would be flaming out. The BJ is not the only airplane with these engines. On top of this, if sumping was to be the major culprit every jet flying would be in danger of flaming out. Has anyone noticed a airline pilot out there sumping their airplane. In consideration they do fly a lot, but they don't fly continously.B1900FO said:
Bjetset2
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Bjetset2
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Agreed
I agree BE350 Captain. The Prist was the main point of my post. And yes you are correct Jet A does have it's own freeze point regardless of water content. However with water the freeze point is higher in terms of temperature, but your point is taken. I'd still make sure both were done if I was an Options passenger, to be the most safe I could be.
JP
I agree BE350 Captain. The Prist was the main point of my post. And yes you are correct Jet A does have it's own freeze point regardless of water content. However with water the freeze point is higher in terms of temperature, but your point is taken. I'd still make sure both were done if I was an Options passenger, to be the most safe I could be.
JP
guido411
ShesGoneFromSucktoBLOW!!
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400pilot said:
Are you telling me that you believe the first OPT flameout was the FIRST airplane in the history of the JT15D that didnt get the required amount of prist? I find this highly unlikely. Surely there have been airplanes with the JT15D that have gone to Mexico or BFE that haven't had Prist available and have flown without incident without it. I don't buy the Prist excuse anymore either. I don't really agree that a slug of ice went through both engines at the same time on two separate occasions. IMO the slug should have stopped at the filters and then the fuel would have automatically by-passed the filter. I gotta say I'm with the environmental factors theory. I.e. no anti-ice on at high altitude in/above visible moisture, etc.
Fozzy
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Sump?!? Do the 400 guys do that?!?
Not being a wise as!s, but we have never, and I mean never sumped a Ultra. Mx might, but on the line we don't touch the things. They may not stop sumping if you do.
Now as far as Prist goes, we now are making sure it is being added. So far, in the last 2 months, I have caught 3 that were not adding or broken. And one truck started but broke during fueling. My FO caught it after about 300 gals. Sucked for the FBO, had to unload the whole thing and start over.
Sump, funny.
Not being a wise as!s, but we have never, and I mean never sumped a Ultra. Mx might, but on the line we don't touch the things. They may not stop sumping if you do.
Now as far as Prist goes, we now are making sure it is being added. So far, in the last 2 months, I have caught 3 that were not adding or broken. And one truck started but broke during fueling. My FO caught it after about 300 gals. Sucked for the FBO, had to unload the whole thing and start over.
Sump, funny.
Where did I say that? What I believe is irrelevent. For those who don't know, this is what happened:
The airplane was topped off in SDF(Louisville) before going to DUC(Duncan). Enough fuel was then taken on to go to SRQ (or APF or wherever they were going.) After 2 hours at altitude, they pulled the power back to descend and both engines stopped running. They were also in severe clear. 1 was restarted and they landed in SRQ.
The feds checked the fuel and found there was virtually no prist in it. Traced it back to SDF, which is supposed to be pre-mixed.....
The NTSB working with Raytheon determined the cause.
Incidentally, I have also flown airplanes without prist, but never for extended periods of time at high altitudes. Prist is used for a reason....what do you think would happen if it wasn't in the fuel?
Also, prist and water in the tanks apparently had no factor in the 2nd...draw your own conclusions.
I don't buy the prist theory. The difference between fuel freezing and fuel + prist freezing is about 4 degrees C. -42 and -46 I think. The funny thing is when you ask Flighsafety what you should do when you are at 410 for 2 hours and your fuel temp gauge reads -45 C, all they say is you should decend to keep the temp from exceeding the red line on the cold side??? Next time your flying keep an eye on the guage because that tells you where the freezing point is on fuel.
Ok, there was no prist in the plane. So, has the actual ntsb report come out stating that the actual reason for the dual flameout was no prist? Why were the motors running just fine until they pulled the power back to start decent?? Did the ice just decide to form and at that very moment be released??? Why do they preach to jet drivers to not slam the power levers back at altitude?? I'm just suprised that the only problems with the beechjet having dual flameouts is Floptions!! All the military and all the corporate beechjets and not one has had a flameout with the final verdict from the ntsb being no prist!! There is another reason, but no prist isn't it. Netjets has had not one problem. JMHO!
I
IFLYHI
My two Beechjet Stories
Both of these incidents happened in RK330
#1 – Filled up at LWM, and then headed for the west coast. The fuel truck that filled us up had a prist injector pump that needed to be primed, so it wasn’t pumping any prist. I found out about this when I got back from my west coast trip. We were about 5 minutes from our TOD, going to FAR for fuel, when the left fuel filter bypass light came on. I confirmed that the filter was bypassing by pulling back the power lever slightly, which made the light go out. Pushing the lever forward made the light come back on. The light stayed on at progressively lower power settings, and it was on at idle by the time we landed in FAR. The engines ran fine without incident. The mechanics in FAR were on lunch break, so there was about an hour delay before the fuselage filters were removed. They both looked like new. I think that the ice crystals that had blocked the filter had melted and “re-entrained” into the jetfuel. There was no water or sediment in the bottom of either filter bowl. We replaced both filters, and had no further issues. After that incident, I became better about monitoring the fuel truck, and ensuring that Prist is really being pumped.
#2 – Flying from FMY to BED, in the clouds most of the way because of T-storm activity along the east coast. We started our descent over NYC, and got a yellow A/S miss-compare light after a few hundred feet. I checked the two PFD’s and found a 40kt difference. Let me back up and say that this incident occurred after Raytheon’s loss of airspeed AD, which requires a flight manual supplement, and adds the memory items to the checklist. However, at the time of my incident, (or was it an occurrence?), Flight Safety was not teaching “loss of airspeed” and had no reference to it in any of their manuals or checklists. So anyway… back to my story – There we were, over NYC, IMC, moderate turbulence when the Pilots PFD went black. To be totally accurate, it wasn’t all black, it had a bunch of cool looking red X’s all over it! No, it wasn’t just the airspeed and altitude that went black, it was everything; no attitude, heading, airspeed or altitude. After the requisite “OH ********************”, I began to search for something to turn on to solve this dilemma. The only thing I came up with was the engine, wing and hstab heat, so I turned them all on. Just about that time, the airplane started a moderate dutch roll, and the hstab fail light came on. Now I’m really scratching my head trying to figure out what the heck is going on with the airplane. Then the radar shut down, which wouldn’t have been a big deal except we were using it to pick our way around some level 4 and 5 T-Storms. I thought that the PF may have kicked the yaw damper off when he disengaged the A/P, but I checked it three times, and the switch was on. So I declared an emergency, got some vectors, and we kept on going down. The right side PFD never went black, but the data it was displaying was definitely not reliable. So we were left to descend with the peanut attitude and altitude. The peanut A/S was on 0. As we descended through the low 30’s, things started coming back online, and by the time we were down to 25K, everything was back to normal. In case your wondering, the ADC has an output to the AHRS computer, the YD computer, the Hstab heat computer and the radar. All of those systems will probably be affected during “loss of airspeed”.
So now to the relevant point of this long rant. I was recently at SimuFlite DAL for recurrent, and told this story. There was a FLOPS pilot there who had a very similar experience. The only additional thing he experienced was a “loud bang” from the rear of the aircraft near the top of the descent. He didn’t have any engine issues, and maintenance never found anything wrong with the airplane.
Then I was reading the NTSB prelim report of the second “dual flameout”:
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20060104X00004&key=1
and noticed that the pilots said:
“The pilots reported that after completing the checklists after the engines lost power, they noted that the standby air speed indicator had gone to zero until the airplane had descended through FL 330 where it resumed indicating an airspeed.”
I believe that the only way for the standby airspeed to go to zero is for the right side pitot tube to be clogged/frozen.
So is it possible that there might be a connection between “loss of airspeed” and “dual flameout”? Does any part of the engine get any input from the ADC?
Could frozen pitots be causing engine flameouts? My guess is probably not, but its at least as plausible as methane gas! J
Both of these incidents happened in RK330
#1 – Filled up at LWM, and then headed for the west coast. The fuel truck that filled us up had a prist injector pump that needed to be primed, so it wasn’t pumping any prist. I found out about this when I got back from my west coast trip. We were about 5 minutes from our TOD, going to FAR for fuel, when the left fuel filter bypass light came on. I confirmed that the filter was bypassing by pulling back the power lever slightly, which made the light go out. Pushing the lever forward made the light come back on. The light stayed on at progressively lower power settings, and it was on at idle by the time we landed in FAR. The engines ran fine without incident. The mechanics in FAR were on lunch break, so there was about an hour delay before the fuselage filters were removed. They both looked like new. I think that the ice crystals that had blocked the filter had melted and “re-entrained” into the jetfuel. There was no water or sediment in the bottom of either filter bowl. We replaced both filters, and had no further issues. After that incident, I became better about monitoring the fuel truck, and ensuring that Prist is really being pumped.
#2 – Flying from FMY to BED, in the clouds most of the way because of T-storm activity along the east coast. We started our descent over NYC, and got a yellow A/S miss-compare light after a few hundred feet. I checked the two PFD’s and found a 40kt difference. Let me back up and say that this incident occurred after Raytheon’s loss of airspeed AD, which requires a flight manual supplement, and adds the memory items to the checklist. However, at the time of my incident, (or was it an occurrence?), Flight Safety was not teaching “loss of airspeed” and had no reference to it in any of their manuals or checklists. So anyway… back to my story – There we were, over NYC, IMC, moderate turbulence when the Pilots PFD went black. To be totally accurate, it wasn’t all black, it had a bunch of cool looking red X’s all over it! No, it wasn’t just the airspeed and altitude that went black, it was everything; no attitude, heading, airspeed or altitude. After the requisite “OH ********************”, I began to search for something to turn on to solve this dilemma. The only thing I came up with was the engine, wing and hstab heat, so I turned them all on. Just about that time, the airplane started a moderate dutch roll, and the hstab fail light came on. Now I’m really scratching my head trying to figure out what the heck is going on with the airplane. Then the radar shut down, which wouldn’t have been a big deal except we were using it to pick our way around some level 4 and 5 T-Storms. I thought that the PF may have kicked the yaw damper off when he disengaged the A/P, but I checked it three times, and the switch was on. So I declared an emergency, got some vectors, and we kept on going down. The right side PFD never went black, but the data it was displaying was definitely not reliable. So we were left to descend with the peanut attitude and altitude. The peanut A/S was on 0. As we descended through the low 30’s, things started coming back online, and by the time we were down to 25K, everything was back to normal. In case your wondering, the ADC has an output to the AHRS computer, the YD computer, the Hstab heat computer and the radar. All of those systems will probably be affected during “loss of airspeed”.
So now to the relevant point of this long rant. I was recently at SimuFlite DAL for recurrent, and told this story. There was a FLOPS pilot there who had a very similar experience. The only additional thing he experienced was a “loud bang” from the rear of the aircraft near the top of the descent. He didn’t have any engine issues, and maintenance never found anything wrong with the airplane.
Then I was reading the NTSB prelim report of the second “dual flameout”:
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20060104X00004&key=1
and noticed that the pilots said:
“The pilots reported that after completing the checklists after the engines lost power, they noted that the standby air speed indicator had gone to zero until the airplane had descended through FL 330 where it resumed indicating an airspeed.”
I believe that the only way for the standby airspeed to go to zero is for the right side pitot tube to be clogged/frozen.
So is it possible that there might be a connection between “loss of airspeed” and “dual flameout”? Does any part of the engine get any input from the ADC?
Could frozen pitots be causing engine flameouts? My guess is probably not, but its at least as plausible as methane gas! J
FracCapt
Clown punchers, unite!
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- Mar 11, 2004
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- 1,415
Choppy said:
So...why don't you tell us your theory, oh enlightened one... By the way....Netjets has not been operating the Beechjet nearly as long as Options, nor do they have nearly as many of them...therefore, they have not flown anywhere near as many hours.
I have no idea what caused either dual flameout. I can speculate, but I'm not that much of an idiot to think that I can determine the cause without knowing all pertinent information...but, apparently, you feel you can...so enlighten us.
PHX767
it's a dry heat
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2001
- Posts
- 349
Dear Worried Passenger,
By all means ask the crew if they have drained the sumps and if they checked to see if the fuel had Prist injected! Ask them to show you the prist meter in the cockpit, too. If they pretend they don't know, insist!
Then ask them how many hours they have, and how much experience in the Beechjet. Crews love to talk about how many flying hours they have!
But if you really want to get scared, ask them how long they have been on duty. Or when the last time they had a meal, or a good night's sleep. And be sure to ask how many MEL's are on the plane.
pamed19 said:
By all means ask the crew if they have drained the sumps and if they checked to see if the fuel had Prist injected! Ask them to show you the prist meter in the cockpit, too. If they pretend they don't know, insist!
Then ask them how many hours they have, and how much experience in the Beechjet. Crews love to talk about how many flying hours they have!
But if you really want to get scared, ask them how long they have been on duty. Or when the last time they had a meal, or a good night's sleep. And be sure to ask how many MEL's are on the plane.
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