Flight school sued for $50,000,000

[Milkdud99]

Understood. Now think outside the box.

Youre in early and waiting for your student. You know the wx in not VFR. You have a quick backup plan to grab a quick IFR clearance, spend 10 mins on a departure in the clouds, then do an entire lesson in great VFR wx. If the wx is still down you pick up a quick approach back in. simple enough.

Now...your sharp student shows up. He asks if you are going up? you say you dont know....you ask him to check the wx. After an in-depth analysis he comes back and says "sorry boss, we can go anywhere for hours, its 700ovc and 2m in fog here, tops at 2000ft...too bad because just 10 miles North of here is great VFR!.....maybe I will go home"....

"good decision Johnny"...

Is that where your lesson ends today?

too bad, you could have taught great decision making then turned it into a great flight lesson also.

ok... i somewhat see your point.. not completely tho,

PERSONALLY and this is just me, a 200' ceiling is less than what i would go up in let alone take a student up in. and the main reason is do to the MDA.. 200?????


Yes i do agree that it is the instructor asking for a problem, and i think THIS situation would be a bad idea to take a pilot who doesn't even have a rating... even sport.

Oh by the way, 4 hours a day of flight training is pretty intense. ESPECIALLY for a student pilot!

 

[Iceman21]

I note the CFI reports just slightly more hours than the student, relatively speaking. Probably no senior CFI or 'chief' FI overseeing things?

Read the article again, the CFI had over 900 hours.

I did my training at American Flyers, finished my CFI and multi ratings in less than 6 months. I did some of my required instrument training for the private in actual, and have done it with my students, BUT not in that kind of weather. 200 and a half is not condusive for learning at all. I bet that students a$$ along with the instructors was so puckered you couldn't squeeze a fart out.

At any rate, I see this going the plantiff's way easily.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

ok... i somewhat see your point.. not completely tho,

PERSONALLY and this is just me, a 200' ceiling is less than what i would go up in let alone take a student up in. and the main reason is do to the MDA.. 200?????


Yes i do agree that it is the instructor asking for a problem, and i think THIS situation would be a bad idea to take a pilot who doesn't even have a rating... even sport.

Oh by the way, 4 hours a day of flight training is pretty intense. ESPECIALLY for a student pilot!

I agree, the day of the accident those guys had NO reason to be up there. Nobody was learning anything. It was criminal IMHO.

But to bag every Private lesson because of a little wx is extreme. Its not as much the 200' ceiling they should have been concerned about as it was the LLWS of 60kts at 2000' and the mod+ turbulence reported by airliners and larger corp jets that day.

Sorry, but if a 737 or a GV is diverting, so might I in my 172.

Use you head, pick your students wisely, and always know your own limits! (personal and equipment)....

but for gods sakes, lets not be narrow minded - there are many effective ways to teach.

 

[GravityHater]

Read the article again, the CFI had over 900 hours.

Not that any of this matters.... I agree with you that the plaintiff will prevail, but have to ask what the end result will be. How much $ will pass from defendant to plaintiff.

 

[Iceman21]

Oh by the way, 4 hours a day of flight training is pretty intense. ESPECIALLY for a student pilot!

As is finishing a private certificate in 14 days

and 8 hours of IFR sim training a day 3 days straight.

Intense but a heck of alot of fun.

...but have to ask what the end result will be. How much $ will pass from defendant to plaintiff.

Your guess is as good as mine. I wonder what it will do to Clark and Dave over there at AF.

 

[ShadowFlight]

The pilot acknowledged the transmission, read back the altimeter setting, and reported that he was at an altitude of 800 feet. There were no further communications from the pilot, and the airplane's last radar target was observed at 1517:39, at an altitude of 600 feet.

The airplane impacted trees and came to rest in a wooded area, about 1 mile from the approach end of runway 16. The terrain around the accident site sloped upward from the Kensico Reservoir, and contained trees that were about 75 feet tall.

Seems odd that they were below DH about one mile from the end of 16. Maybe trying to duck under? Or was the CFI that far "behind" during the approach that the GS was creeping away from them with no correction? Who knows.

It's unfortunate two people died for reasons that could be considered "avoidable".

Rest in peace...

SF

 

[aeronautic1]

Bone Heads

These ab-initio flight schools are preditory at best. "You want to be an airline pilot (right now!) in the least amount of time (experience!)? Give us $26K and we'll make your aviation dreams come true." They do not care about the quality of instruction given, only the bottom-line. And the bottom-line is, if it ain't flyin', it ain't revenuin'. This is not the first AF instructor to kill a student and destroy an airplane (e.g. Ft. Lauderdale accident/buzzing a house) and will not be the last. Too bad there was no CVR. It is my bet that the PF was also the PIC, and there was only one onboard that day. What better way to pad your IFR time than on someone else's dime. RIP student pilot.
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20050428X00521&key=1

 

[Milkdud99]

Anyone else notice somthing wrong with his medical????

 

[Fly_Chick]

Yeah, the CFI's medical was valid on third class priviledges through March 2005. According to the AIN article, he was 45 at the time of the crash.

 

[aeronautic1]

Oops

However, He Crashed On April 23rd 2005. If March 2003 Was The Date Of Last Issuance, Then His Private Pilot Medical Was Expired, No? For Flight Instruction, He Is Required To Hold A Second Class, Is That Not So?

 

[Nolife]

Very sad

Correct me if I'm wrong but with my private students I always thought along the lines that the 3 hours instrument was just so they could turn around in the clouds without losing complete control and also to show them how hard it is. I always told my primary students that if they flew into clouds without being rated they would die.

I also figured that they wouldn't learn much watching me fly the approach which at 200 & 1/2 I'd be doing. I'm not sure if I'd take an instrument student up in 200 & 1/2 unless they were very good. Not much room for error there. And flying the approach from the right seat would be annoying as well.

 

[groundpointsix]

However, He Crashed On April 23rd 2005. If March 2003 Was The Date Of Last Issuance, Then His Private Pilot Medical Was Expired, No? For Flight Instruction, He Is Required To Hold A Second Class, Is That Not So?

Nope. Only required to hold a 3rd class. As it was explained to me, as an instructor I'm being hired to teach, not to fly the airplane. In fact, if the student is capable of acting as PIC (not the case here) you don't even need a medical. Assuming the instructor was under 40, he's still got another 11 months on his medical before it expires.

 

[aeronautic1]

All this talk...

... about medicals made me pull mine out. When did they go to a 36 month medical? It has been forever since I was a private pilot and I seem to remember that they were every 24 months for 3rd. (Excuse me while I go and drain my colostomy bag)

In any case, the PF/PIC/CFI (all the same guy) at HPN and the company policy of encouraging the CFI to take a pre-solo (30+hours?) student up (oh, I can hear it already, "we told them not to go...") in less than marginal weather should be charge with accessory to murder. Okay, maybe a little melodramatic, but that's all I have to live for today; you young whippersnappers.

My heart goes out to the families of the student and the unfortunate and inexperienced CFI. Remember, airplanes don't kill people. Only people in airplanes doing things beyond their capabilites kills people.

 

[Lowpass]

Correct me if I'm wrong but with my private students I always thought along the lines that the 3 hours instrument was just so they could turn around in the clouds without losing complete control and also to show them how hard it is. I always told my primary students that if they flew into clouds without being rated they would die.

I also figured that they wouldn't learn much watching me fly the approach which at 200 & 1/2 I'd be doing. I'm not sure if I'd take an instrument student up in 200 & 1/2 unless they were very good. Not much room for error there. And flying the approach from the right seat would be annoying as well.

And that first paragraph is exactly why to do some student pilot training in actual if possible. If they see how demanding it can be, they'll have a lot more respect for it. I always point out that with a hood, you can still at least get an idea of which way is down. In IMC, they're forced to actually do part of the required 3 hours of instrument time. And everyone is amazed at how different the actual is.

If it is possble, I'll take them up in actual. But I explain that I'll run the radios, set everything up, they just fly. They are the auto pilot. This way all they have to focus on is the basic maneuvering, and maybe track a VOR needle if they are managing the first. Using the auto pilot concept, just have them set you up for the approach as much as they can handle, and then say before FAF tell them you have the airplane since it's a lot more critical. It gives them a few minutes of watching where you can at least explain what you're doing.

I don't make it mandatory, but it is something I push for when the weather isn't so great. It's always been a productive experience. Of course don't go if you've got monster winds etc. And keep your personal mins if need be.

 

[sky37d]

I did most of my instrument training, in actual. However, for my private, it was all simulated. There would be some advantage to doing actual, but for a PPL, the scenario is turn around. No more than that. Don't proceed. How many "continued VFR in IMC" accidents happen every year.

On the medical. If they guy's medical was expired, which it certainly seems to have been, he could continue to do instruction if the "student" was able to be PIC. This student hadn't soloed yet, so obviously not capable of being PIC.

IT's a sad day.