Flight school sued for $50,000,000

[JimNtexas]

According this AIN article, a flight school is being sued for $50,000,000 for negligance related to an accident in which a 32 hour pre-solo student and CFI were killed flying an ILS in 200-1/2 conditions.

The NTSB Report is here.

 

[Milkdud99]

IFR with a private????

 

[sky37d]

I read the article this AM, and it is just sad.

It struck me as odd that they were burning up so much flight time, in what appeared to be a relatively short time.

There was no reason for a primary student to be up in that kind of stuff. also 32 hours of training in 8 days. That seems like to accelerated. One of the points was they were trying to clock time on him, but I don't see that unproductive time was worthwhile. Also, you would think that someone who was in that accelerated a program would have soloed (sp??)

 

[Gulfstream 200]

That was a pretty nasty day...

NO WAY a student pilot or a 172 needed to be out in that. It wasn't pop-up weather, it was forecast to be nasty, rainy, windy, windshear type of day. Surface winds weren't too bad - 15-25kts- but the winds at 2000' were forecast to be 40-60kts with mod+ turb.

wont be hard to convince a jury of extreme negligence here, IMHO.

 

[Whirlwind]

IFR with a private????

Sure, every private pilot needs 3 hours of instrument training. Most of the time that is done with a hood on, but I always tried to get that time done in actual IMC.

Of course, there are limits to the weather I'd do this in, and 200 and 1/2 are below them. 400 and 1 are probably the lowest I'd take a student pilot up in.

 

[Fly_Chick]

Class Bravo training - was the primary airport in class Bravo? Cross-countries, uncontrolled airport operations (implies they also had controlled airport operatons) - and the student did not solo?

Seems a lack of consistency in the training, too much overall training, not enough focused training.

No matter from whom I may get pressure (outside, inside, student, parents, bill payer) I always remember that it is my decision-making, my teaching, my future on the line when I make a decision, even when that decision may potentially cost me my livelyhood.

The most sad part of this story is the two of them made is so close to a landing... then...

 

[redW&blue]

So sad

I guess we will wonder what the CFI was trying to teach a 31 hour student

 

[Gulfstream 200]

IFR with a private????

SURE! to get out out of a small area of ground fog to get to good VFR to train, then shoot a fun (say 500-1) approach back in...good experience...

but to tangle with LLWS of 60kts, Mod+turb and 200-1/2 rainy in a 172 with a pre-solo student --- thats not training, some may call it borderline homicide.

 

[Milkdud99]

Sure, every private pilot needs 3 hours of instrument training. Most of the time that is done with a hood on, but I always tried to get that time done in actual IMC.

Of course, there are limits to the weather I'd do this in, and 200 and 1/2 are below them. 400 and 1 are probably the lowest I'd take a student pilot up in.

so ur saying... that in ur private training you went up in actual on an IFR clearance????? Although the FAR's dont say anything about simulated instrument, going up in actual with a student who can plan a Xcountry sounds stupid to me... but what do i know LOL

 

[Gulfstream 200]

so ur saying... that in ur private training you went up in actual on an IFR clearance????? Although the FAR's dont say anything about simulated instrument, going up in actual with a student who can plan a Xcountry sounds stupid to me... but what do i know LOL

FAR from stupid, it shows them how that "mystery" of IFR works. Are you doing more than the bare minimum needed for a Private?...maybe...and if you are working with a student who is on a BARE bones flying budget (I didnt) - OK, maybe its a bit much...but every student I have worked with learned A LOT from the experience...and learned how important an Instrument rating is....and many went right on to add that rating. Thats a safe, long term pilot.

They see it, understand how it works, and respect it. To me that is 100X better than some turns under a farkin' hood anyday!

 

[Fly_Chick]

With a private student, how much are you going to teach, and how much is the student going to learn on an actual IMC flight? I think it would just scare the student, unless of course you had quite a few hours of ground instruction beforehand about what to expect.

Sure, I will go into a cloud with a private student, call ATC for clearance for training purposes when we are in the practice area and I see an attractive, suitable cloud.

Yet I have to think about what I am teaching the student (indirectly, subconsciously) by filing and then going up in IMC with him/her.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

With a private student, how much are you going to teach, and how much is the student going to learn on an actual IMC flight? I think it would just scare the student, unless of course you had quite a few hours of ground instruction beforehand about what to expect.

Sure, I will go into a cloud with a private student, call ATC for clearance for training purposes when we are in the practice area and I see an attractive, suitable cloud.

Yet I have to think about what I am teaching the student (indirectly, subconsciously) by filing and then going up in IMC with him/her.

so instead you will throw them under a hood for 3 hrs on a nice vfr day?

if thats your comfy level, stick with it.

 

[GravityHater]

What flight school has that kind of dough? The insurance policy will have limits way below that. Think they will collect anything or is it more of a "I wanna see them suffer' lawsuit? Heck they lost a plane, a customer, and a CFI. Now they have to defend against that. The defense alone would kill any small business, let alone any awards.
I note the CFI reports just slightly more hours than the student, relatively speaking. Probably no senior CFI or 'chief' FI overseeing things?

 

[Fly_Chick]

so instead you will throw them under a hood for 3 hrs on a nice vfr day?

if thats your comfy level, stick with it.

It depends on the type of IMC. I once had a new student, very first flight, conditions IMC, and told to take him up, as he will "have to learn sometime". I did not, as I did not want him to think that normal. Just because I am instrument rated, as a private pilot, he is/will be PIC, and has to make decisions. We often lead by example, and the example I wanted to set is one of proper decision making.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

It depends on the type of IMC. I once had a new student, very first flight, conditions IMC, and told to take him up, as he will "have to learn sometime". I did not, as I did not want him to think that normal. Just because I am instrument rated, as a private pilot, he is/will be PIC, and has to make decisions. We often lead by example, and the example I wanted to set is one of proper decision making.

Understood. Now think outside the box.

Youre in early and waiting for your student. You know the wx in not VFR. You have a quick backup plan to grab a quick IFR clearance, spend 10 mins on a departure in the clouds, then do an entire lesson in great VFR wx. If the wx is still down you pick up a quick approach back in. simple enough.

Now...your sharp student shows up. He asks if you are going up? you say you dont know....you ask him to check the wx. After an in-depth analysis he comes back and says "sorry boss, we can go anywhere for hours, its 700ovc and 2m in fog here, tops at 2000ft...too bad because just 10 miles North of here is great VFR!.....maybe I will go home"....

"good decision Johnny"...

Is that where your lesson ends today?

too bad, you could have applauded great decision making.....then turned it into a great flight lesson also.

 

[Milkdud99]

Understood. Now think outside the box.

Youre in early and waiting for your student. You know the wx in not VFR. You have a quick backup plan to grab a quick IFR clearance, spend 10 mins on a departure in the clouds, then do an entire lesson in great VFR wx. If the wx is still down you pick up a quick approach back in. simple enough.

Now...your sharp student shows up. He asks if you are going up? you say you dont know....you ask him to check the wx. After an in-depth analysis he comes back and says "sorry boss, we can go anywhere for hours, its 700ovc and 2m in fog here, tops at 2000ft...too bad because just 10 miles North of here is great VFR!.....maybe I will go home"....

"good decision Johnny"...

Is that where your lesson ends today?

too bad, you could have taught great decision making then turned it into a great flight lesson also.

ok... i somewhat see your point.. not completely tho,

PERSONALLY and this is just me, a 200' ceiling is less than what i would go up in let alone take a student up in. and the main reason is do to the MDA.. 200?????


Yes i do agree that it is the instructor asking for a problem, and i think THIS situation would be a bad idea to take a pilot who doesn't even have a rating... even sport.

Oh by the way, 4 hours a day of flight training is pretty intense. ESPECIALLY for a student pilot!

 

[Iceman21]

I note the CFI reports just slightly more hours than the student, relatively speaking. Probably no senior CFI or 'chief' FI overseeing things?

Read the article again, the CFI had over 900 hours.

I did my training at American Flyers, finished my CFI and multi ratings in less than 6 months. I did some of my required instrument training for the private in actual, and have done it with my students, BUT not in that kind of weather. 200 and a half is not condusive for learning at all. I bet that students a$$ along with the instructors was so puckered you couldn't squeeze a fart out.

At any rate, I see this going the plantiff's way easily.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

ok... i somewhat see your point.. not completely tho,

PERSONALLY and this is just me, a 200' ceiling is less than what i would go up in let alone take a student up in. and the main reason is do to the MDA.. 200?????


Yes i do agree that it is the instructor asking for a problem, and i think THIS situation would be a bad idea to take a pilot who doesn't even have a rating... even sport.

Oh by the way, 4 hours a day of flight training is pretty intense. ESPECIALLY for a student pilot!

I agree, the day of the accident those guys had NO reason to be up there. Nobody was learning anything. It was criminal IMHO.

But to bag every Private lesson because of a little wx is extreme. Its not as much the 200' ceiling they should have been concerned about as it was the LLWS of 60kts at 2000' and the mod+ turbulence reported by airliners and larger corp jets that day.

Sorry, but if a 737 or a GV is diverting, so might I in my 172.

Use you head, pick your students wisely, and always know your own limits! (personal and equipment)....

but for gods sakes, lets not be narrow minded - there are many effective ways to teach.

 

[GravityHater]

Read the article again, the CFI had over 900 hours.

Not that any of this matters.... I agree with you that the plaintiff will prevail, but have to ask what the end result will be. How much $ will pass from defendant to plaintiff.

 

[Iceman21]

Oh by the way, 4 hours a day of flight training is pretty intense. ESPECIALLY for a student pilot!

As is finishing a private certificate in 14 days

and 8 hours of IFR sim training a day 3 days straight.

Intense but a heck of alot of fun.

...but have to ask what the end result will be. How much $ will pass from defendant to plaintiff.

Your guess is as good as mine. I wonder what it will do to Clark and Dave over there at AF.