Flight Options Vacation Changes

[guido411]

OT mutha fudga

some people need OT to survive (like guys on the flex for example),

I agree that names shouldn't be called out like this either, but I DO disagree with you. . .

If you cannot afford to live based on what the company tells you you will be making, don't take the job. I used to do a little OT here and there but not in the last 2+ years. As an SIC (not on the flex but still underpaid) I am able to live within my means WITHOUT overtime. I don't buy the excuse. Nobody should EVER count on OT at ANY job to make ends meet.

 

[The Great One]

I agree that names shouldn't be called out like this either, but I DO disagree with you. . .

If you cannot afford to live based on what the company tells you you will be making, don't take the job. I used to do a little OT here and there but not in the last 2+ years. As an SIC (not on the flex but still underpaid) I am able to live within my means WITHOUT overtime. I don't buy the excuse. Nobody should EVER count on OT at ANY job to make ends meet.

ok now explain how to get another job on the side not knowing what your schedule is
and having kids, day care cost will equal wife's earnings

 

[nomore]

Let's remember.

Why did the union ask us as pilots not to do overtime? Because at the time the threat of lay-offs was real and we were concerned with those at the bottom of the seniority list. We wanted to do all we could to help our brothers and sisters keep their jobs. But now even though BT has not announced it the threat is probably over. Now I for one would like to see a change of strategy. I think we have the solidarity to do it too. Let's encourage OT, the more the better. Then yank it at the appropriate time. Should I post strategy here for all to see. I don't see how it could hurt. I'm sure Ford and Harrison have seen it before, but what could they do about it?
What do you Flops fighters think?

 

[guido411]

ok now explain how to get another job on the side not knowing what your schedule is
and having kids, day care cost will equal wife's earnings

Read the post. . .

I didn't say one should try to get a job on the side. If the wage that you're told you will receive is not going to be enough from Day 1, DON'T ACCEPT THE JOB!! If you you find yourself in the predicament of not having enough money because the pay you signed up for is not enough I have no sympathy for you.

 

[guido411]

Why did the union ask us as pilots not to do overtime? Because at the time the threat of lay-offs was real and we were concerned with those at the bottom of the seniority list. We wanted to do all we could to help our brothers and sisters keep their jobs. But now even though BT has not announced it the threat is probably over. Now I for one would like to see a change of strategy. I think we have the solidarity to do it too. Let's encourage OT, the more the better. Then yank it at the appropriate time. Should I post strategy here for all to see. I don't see how it could hurt. I'm sure Ford and Harrison have seen it before, but what could they do about it?
What do you Flops fighters think?

Interesting strategy, but I'm afraid illegal in the end. See the Union can assert that they don't want pilots to do OT because we want to show management that without OT doers the operation is understaffed and that we want to protect our jobs on the bottom of the list. For the Union to give their blessings to do OT and then all of a sudden take that blessing away may constitue an illegal job action without authorization for self help.

I still think the company needs to hire to appropriate staffing levels and everybody needs to forget about OT being available anytime they want it.

 

[400pilot]

For the Union to give their blessings to do OT and then all of a sudden take that blessing away may constitue an illegal job action without authorization for self help.

How do you figure? OT is voluntary....there is nothing illegal about asking pilots to not volunteer.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Why did the union ask us as pilots not to do overtime? Because at the time the threat of lay-offs was real and we were concerned with those at the bottom of the seniority list. We wanted to do all we could to help our brothers and sisters keep their jobs. But now even though BT has not announced it the threat is probably over. Now I for one would like to see a change of strategy. I think we have the solidarity to do it too. Let's encourage OT, the more the better. Then yank it at the appropriate time. Should I post strategy here for all to see. I don't see how it could hurt. I'm sure Ford and Harrison have seen it before, but what could they do about it?
What do you Flops fighters think?

Yank it at the appropriate time?

Wonderful. Let's see how we can screw the company over and affect all those employees that are not represented by the union to get what they want.

This is EXACTLY the example I have repeatedly used to prove my point about why I like my non-union airline.

This isn't the opinion you were soliciting, but it's what you are going to get.

 

[WabiSabi]

Yank it at the appropriate time?

Wonderful. Let's see how we can screw the company over and affect all those employees that are not represented by the union to get what they want.

This is EXACTLY the example I have repeatedly used to prove my point about why I like my non-union airline.

This isn't the opinion you were soliciting, but it's what you are going to get.

Since you don't work at FLOPS, you have no basis for your statement. As was said in another post, OT is voluntary. There is nothing illegal nor is there anything unethical about this strategy. Ford & Harrison and FLOPS management are the ones that are "screwing the company" It would be the fault of management for relying on OT to crew the airplanes. Also, if you worked here, you might have realized that FLOPS' crew ratio is much lower than the other fracs.

nomore, I like your idea!:beer:

 

[Majik]

Withhold anything extra for the company. Educate and encourage everyone else that wants to see improvements to do the same. Encourage them to do it all of the time, not just when it is convenient. Some will never listen and will take advantage of the efforts and sacrifices of others. Keep up the pressure to educate them. More will join the effort the longer this drags on. 1 year from now you will have more support. 2 years from now you will have even more. Try to convince the group to act sooner rather than later.

To the guy that needs every bit of OT to make ends meet - What would you do if OT wasn't available, just lie down in the gutter? No, you would do whatever it takes to provide for your family. Be honest, OT is the easier option. Easy may make things seem better short term but you better hope not too many of your fellow pilots are like you, else not enough pilots will shoulder the load and time will march on and years will be added to your struggle.

When a large enough percentage of pilots are willing to fight for a contract, you will get a contract. Until then...

Trust me, I know.

 

[Spackler]

Yank it at the appropriate time?

Wonderful. Let's see how we can screw the company over and affect all those employees that are not represented by the union to get what they want.

This is EXACTLY the example I have repeatedly used to prove my point about why I like my non-union airline.

This isn't the opinion you were soliciting, but it's what you are going to get.

Speaking of yanking it at the appropriate time, how about the timing of last years PAY CUT from the Flops dream team? Right before Christmas we find out that our medical insurance is going to cost us about 300% more. I went from about $140 per month for family medical to $400 per month! Not to mention the increased co-pay and decrease in what get covered.

Merry F'ing Christmas!

Or how about the timing of this latest vacation bull$hit? I was going to have Christmas off this year with my kids FINALLY! Now its a big mystery, I'm sure I'll be sitting in the FBO AGAIN. Merry Christmas kids, I know daddy promised he'd be home for this Christmas but I work for EVIL people who do not care about their employees and do not understand the concept of HAPPY EMPLOYEES = PRODUCTIVE EMPLOYEES.

Merry F'ing Christmas!

These were just 2 examples of how flop's bean counters have screwed us over at really inappropriate times. There are many more.

These bean counters can't understand that if the Pilots were treated fairly, and with respect, we could make this company more money than any of there penny pinching initiatives. That is why flops got the Union it deserved BOB!

The reasons I came to flops have all but gone away. I will fight to the very end to make flops a decent place to work again but if management chooses to fight us and delay the contract we deserve than so be it. Flops will self destruct. If that is the case, it was management that let it happen, not the Union.

What are your plans for Christmas Bob? Must be nice to know that your schedule can't be changed arbitrarily. Ahh, the benefits of being senior managements puppet.

 

[Spackler]

Ot

I don't feel bad for any of these OT whore$. I am a low seniority sic with kids and my wife is a stay at home Mom. It's not easy but I have managed to survive without doing any voluntary OT. What good is the extra money going to do me when I'm laid off? And if I don't get laid off and someone else does, at least I will be able to sleep at night knowing I didn't play any part in their job loss. Flops management is never going to figure out how many pilots it REALLY takes to run this operation if people are still doing ot.

Anyone still doing OT on a voluntary basis is never going to get it if they haven't gotten it by now. We've all heard the excuses. I'm tired of the excuses.

Why did the union ask us as pilots not to do overtime? Because at the time the threat of lay-offs was real and we were concerned with those at the bottom of the seniority list. We wanted to do all we could to help our brothers and sisters keep their jobs.

The flops bean counters still claim that we have too many pilots! They haven't stopped the forced vacations have they! Please do not take it upon yourself to figure out when it is OK to do OT again. I agree, it would be nice to turn it on and off but lets leave strategy up to the leadership.

 

[guido411]

How do you figure? OT is voluntary....there is nothing illegal about asking pilots to not volunteer.

The Union can't say things like, "Everybody call in sick tomorrow and that'll teach management to raise the cost of our benefits."
But they CAN say, "Don't fly sick, hungry, or fatigued."

The union can't say "Everybody break your airplanes at 1000 on Sunday to pay back management for our schedule changes."
But they CAN say, "Don't do anything illegal for or against the company."

All of the first examples would constitute an illegal job action. For the same reason the Union cannot say, "Work OT until Thanksgiving weekend but then stop doing it to show MS, SA, and BT that we're in control." The Union has to be VERY careful how it words things.

 

[Majik]

Yank it at the appropriate time?

Wonderful. Let's see how we can screw the company over and affect all those employees that are not represented by the union to get what they want.

This is EXACTLY the example I have repeatedly used to prove my point about why I like my non-union airline.

This isn't the opinion you were soliciting, but it's what you are going to get.

It is a poor management team that fails to realize the value of their employees. It's obvious that a counter screwing is the only option that will get their attention.

And as for the non-union employees, they are caught in the middle. The sooner they realize this and assist the unionized employees, the sooner things will get better for everyone - including the overall financial health of the company.

NetJets made record profits after the pilots finally got tired enough to force management to work with them instead of against them. I think the NJA non-union employees are happier now than when the battle was raging.

As far as the guy's idea of working OT and then yanking it - bad idea. Don't give the company any ammo to use in court to claim an illegal job action. Just ratchet up the pressure on a daily basis. Don't rush and be as safe as you possibly can. It's really hard to do but half-hearted efforts will only yield half-hearted results. Improvements will begin when enough pilots begin to roll up their sleeves and do it every leg of every day, not just when it's convenient.

 

[Majik]

This is EXACTLY the example I have repeatedly used to prove my point about why I like my non-union airline.

And I agree with you on this point. I was anti-union before I came to NetJets. I had never worked for a company where a union was needed. Everyone wants to work for a company where the company considers employee's QOL and recognizes their contribution. Don't know where you work but it sounds like you have that. Pat yourself on the back for the good fortune of working for a company that has a good management team. NetJets wasn't one of them and Flight Options isn't either. Trust me, I hated the battle and years of fighting it required to get our contract. IT SUCKED BIG TIME! It was necessary and I like to think I did my part to help achieve the success NetJets is enjoying today.

Isn't it ironic that Santulli turned me from a rabid anti-unionist into a hard-core union supporter?

 

[TurboHonda]

I guess you are following the rules yourself by following number 4. "Be professional." That is going too far by posting names of people working OT. People have their own reasons of why they need to work OT.
I am sorry but if I needed the money at home, my family would come first...

Easy now. Try not to get too self-righteous here.

There are two separate issues, and one has nothing to do with the other.

Issue #1: Someone posts the names of people working overtime. He/she does it anonymously on a public board. Maybe it was rude, crude, and un-professional. I guess we should limit ourselves to only “professional” behavior, while working for a bunch of morally corrupt thieves and with a few selfish enablers. If that is the case, shame on you Fed Magnet. I can’t endorse what you did.

Issue #2: We have a bunch of pilots voluntarily working overtime (selfish enablers) and hindering the progress of our obtaining a contract. So they need the money. Well, go steal something. Because, that’s what you’re doing to your pilot brothers.

Like I said, one issue has nothing to do with the other. Condemnation of one is not acceptance of the other.