Flight Options Non-MIGS

[fracjack]

Delta pilots are UNION PILOTS. If the individual in question has chosen not to be a UNION PILOT he should not seek employment in a unionized pilot group. He is either A.) anti union or B.) self serving and doesn't want to pay his share to become a MIG. In either case you reap what you sow and the ALPA pilots on the hiring commitee at Delta need to know what they are getting.

Paying what you owe is not a gray area and is not trivial.

What is owed is service fees for not belonging,that is contractual. You forgot C....is not selfserving but does not agree with union bargaining process and bylaw changes. WTF is a SWA newbie f/o doing on this forum? Get a freakin life.

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

What is owed is service fees for not belonging,that is contractual. You forgot C....is not selfserving but does not agree with union bargaining process and bylaw changes. .

Sir what is owed is dues from day one. Thats what the majority of the pilots knowingly voted for when they voted in the IBT. Just like taxes you don't get to only pay when you agree with everything. If your town put a levy on the ballot and it passed you would still owe the taxes even if you voted no.

The real issue here is that the IBT can't force the pilots on the list to pay what they owe. Just because the IBT can't enforce the debt at this time doesn't mean the the money is not owed. What the IBT can and is doing is expose the individuals for who and what they are and subject them to the judgement and scrutiny of their peers. If the poeple on the list can't handle that they need to pay what they owe.

If C... Doesn't agree with the union bargaining process he shouldn't seek work at a unionized carrier like DAL. If it were really a matter of principal he would seek employment at a non union carrier. He can't have it both ways.

 

[1folinepilot]

Sir what is owed is dues from day one. Thats what the majority of the pilots knowingly voted for when they voted in the IBT. Just like taxes you don't get to only pay when you agree with everything. If your town put a levy on the ballot and it passed you would still owe the taxes even if you voted no.

The real issue here is that the IBT can't force the pilots on the list to pay what they owe. Just because the IBT can't enforce the debt at this time doesn't mean the the money is not owed. What the IBT can and is doing is expose the individuals for who and what they are and subject them to the judgement and scrutiny of their peers. If the poeple on the list can't handle that they need to pay what they owe.

If C... Doesn't agree with the union bargaining process he shouldn't seek work at a unionized carrier like DAL. If it were really a matter of principal he would seek employment at a non union carrier. He can't have it both ways.

How selective is your memory? When the majority of the pilots voted in the IBT for representation they were promised by Praetorian and his MEC that they would not owe any dues until the first contract was voted on and ratified. They were told that the IBT would fund the drive and that there was a war chest of funds from the Net Jet's pilots when they left the IBT. What happened was a later vote from the majority of the IBT1108 pilots which included the majority group of the Net Jets pilots to amend the bylaws to make a qualification to vote, one needed to pay dues from day one, not just from contract ratification. Most of the Flight Options pilots didn't even receive ballots in a timely fashion to vote or even receive ballots at all so the Flight Option pilots effectively had no say in that flawed decision to amend the bylaws on the dues issue.

Once the ball is in play, don't change the rules of the game to suit your own outcome.

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

How selective is your memory? When the majority of the pilots voted in the IBT for representation they were promised by Praetorian and his MEC that they would not owe any dues until the first contract was voted on and ratified. They were told that the IBT would fund the drive and that there was a war chest of funds from the Net Jet's pilots when they left the IBT. What happened was a later vote from the majority of the IBT1108 pilots which included the majority group of the Net Jets pilots to amend the bylaws to make a qualification to vote, one needed to pay dues from day one, not just from contract ratification. Most of the Flight Options pilots didn't even receive ballots in a timely fashion to vote or even receive ballots at all so the Flight Option pilots effectively had no say in that flawed decision to amend the bylaws on the dues issue.

Once the ball is in play, don't change the rules of the game to suit your own outcome.

My memory is very good and not selective. Thank you for your concern. To refresh your memory the 1108 e board made the dues announcement prior to the election. I remember well because I seriously considered it when it came time to vote. They then found out that there was a problem with that after the election and had to ammend the by laws. So the Flight Options Pilots did in fact know we would have to pay dues before the election. We as a group voted in the 1108 knowing that that was the case. Quit trying to dodge the issue here. These guys owe the money. They need to pay up or deal with the consequences.

At the time of the Options vote there was no organized movement for the Netjets Pilots to leave the IBT. That came more than a year later. Ref the link to the AIN article below. 1108 was voted in by Options in 2006. Netjets Pilots left the IBT in 2008.

http://www.ainonline.com/ain-and-ai...&tx_ttnews[story_pointer]=5&tx_ttnews[mode]=1

 

[fracjack]

My memory is very good and not selective. Thank you for your concern. To refresh your memory the 1108 e board made the dues announcement prior to the election. I remember well because I seriously considered it when it came time to vote. They then found out that there was a problem with that after the election and had to ammend the by laws. So the Flight Options Pilots did in fact know we would have to pay dues before the election. We as a group voted in the 1108 knowing that that was the case. Quit trying to dodge the issue here. These guys owe the money. They need to pay up or deal with the consequences.

At the time of the Options vote there was no organized movement for the Netjets Pilots to leave the IBT. That came more than a year later. Ref the link to the AIN article below. 1108 was voted in by Options in 2006. Netjets Pilots left the IBT in 2008.

http://www.ainonline.com/ain-and-ai...&tx_ttnews[story_pointer]=5&tx_ttnews[mode]=1

WRONG BUCKO.. union koolaid drinkers voluntarily paid without asking. The vote to unionize specifically said no dues until a CBA was approved. Incidentally the vote was quickly rushed before the company could divulge their latest salary increase(reportedly 30% across the board) of which they immediately recinded any possible offer of a pay increase.

Ponder this... since someone compiled a list of 66 non-migs excluding mgtmt pilots of maybe 10 or so would show the 76 out of 300 are not very happy,that's 25% !! Not to include Migs who are not happy but don't wanna rock the leaky boat and you have ineffective leadership,hard feeling amongst the troops and a ton of grievances to eventually fight since many will slowly become aware of the CBA specifics that the company WILL push. Good thing the union has all that war chest money from NetJets.

So tell me again how that industry leading contract is working for ya? The fighting is now between the crews out looking at uniforms to see if they can spot those proud union ID's and ostracize the others who probably don't give a crap. The true mature professional educated crews will not let personal differences in status interfere. Principles and integrity can be displayed from migs and non migs. Paying contractual service fees for employment is a far cry from being treated as SCABS. Follow the money to the problems,it goes both ways.

 

[1folinepilot]

WRONG BUCKO.. union koolaid drinkers voluntarily paid without asking. The vote to unionize specifically said no dues until a CBA was approved. Incidentally the vote was quickly rushed before the company could divulge their latest salary increase(reportedly 30% across the board) of which they immediately recinded any possible offer of a pay increase.


Ghetto, I say you were OWNED!!! Fracjack is right on and correct. You should stop trying to distort the facts and put your energy back into doing your job instead of worrying about what everybody else is doing

 

[Mike Jenvey]

Just to give a view from the UK, the rules are very simple. You cannot be pressurised/penalised from either viewpoint. In other words, you are equally protected by employment law if you want/do not want to be a member of any such union.

From a personal viewpoint (despite being a union member), I would look aghast at any activities that published any form of list (to show status, lack of, or anything that could be deduced from it).

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

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[1folinepilot]

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Ghetto, That was the first wise thing you have done in a long time. You have no reply to Fracjack or myself because you are wrong. You are wrong for publishing your list and your continued harassment and intimidation of the people on your list is completely unacceptable.

How about re-directing your energy into doing your job and unifying the pilot group instead of fighting with everybody and tearing us apart. You have cost us enough already.

 

[Praetorian]

Wow you two sound really pissed.

But hey, thanks for the promotion. Think of all the power I now wield, with my very own MEC. :nuts:

 

[Mike Jenvey]

There are 2 topical articles in the 07 March edition of Time magazine; I appreciate that airline union/association parameters can be different from government/public worker unions.

The first relates to "Meet Your Government Workers" - lots of interesting facts, such as 34 US states require collective bargaining, 11 states permit collective bargaining, & 5 states prohibit it! Not even a national policy??

The previous article is "As Goes Wisconsin - so Goes America" looks at the "power of the (public employee) unions to block reform & strangle good governance" (their words, not mine).

There is also an interesting article about job protection versus efficiency - Germany & high level of exports.

 

[fracjack]

Wow you two sound really pissed.

But hey, thanks for the promotion. Think of all the power I now wield, with my very own MEC. :nuts:

Pissed? No, just very much aware of the facts. Apparantly 2 flavors of koolaid being served and the majority in my estimation do not drink it.
You are absolutely powerless when you're drowning in the union koolaid my fellow pilot. I hear tell some are being recalled,does that mean another published list of Migs or would it be embarrassing that most are probably not. I'm sure we'll see Ghetto with the names,unless of course it may be true that the majority are not Migs. BTW,did the memberhip vote on refunding all dues paid in by those who were wrongly terminated a couple years ago? 75 was about the number but not sure how many paid in but those who did got a refund of all dues...you do remember right? Keep eating steak and lobster on Ricci while your possible"brothers and sisters" are still on the streets. You also never responded in a past thread about providing facts to discredit my claims. Maybe you can persuade the exec committee to throw out a life preserver instead of a self proclaimed "olive branch" to the non migs. It appears they are drowning in their own koolaid with no clue how to save themselves with a life preserver.They could get lucky and get towed in if they can hang on to the end of the line. Lets vote on it...wait..wait...OMG the netjet pilots are gone and there is no one else! Go ask Dubinsky

Maybe a better solution is to quit bickering,pick up the pieces and move on with what you have and get those furloughees back to work and let the primadonnas get their coveted boring airline job turning around the guppies as fast as they can

 

[Praetorian]

Pissed? No, just very much aware of the facts. Apparantly 2 flavors of koolaid being served and the majority in my estimation do not drink it.
You are absolutely powerless when you're drowning in the union koolaid my fellow pilot. I hear tell some are being recalled,does that mean another published list of Migs or would it be embarrassing that most are probably not. I'm sure we'll see Ghetto with the names,unless of course it may be true that the majority are not Migs. BTW,did the memberhip vote on refunding all dues paid in by those who were wrongly terminated a couple years ago? 75 was about the number but not sure how many paid in but those who did got a refund of all dues...you do remember right? Keep eating steak and lobster on Ricci while your possible"brothers and sisters" are still on the streets. You also never responded in a past thread about providing facts to discredit my claims. Maybe you can persuade the exec committee to throw out a life preserver instead of a self proclaimed "olive branch" to the non migs. It appears they are drowning in their own koolaid with no clue how to save themselves with a life preserver.They could get lucky and get towed in if they can hang on to the end of the line. Lets vote on it...wait..wait...OMG the netjet pilots are gone and there is no one else! Go ask Dubinsky

Maybe a better solution is to quit bickering,pick up the pieces and move on with what you have and get those furloughees back to work and let the primadonnas get their coveted boring airline job turning around the guppies as fast as they can

Surprisingly thoughtful. You reach a bit factually, but you have some interesting observations.

I wonder why you dont post this kind of thing on the union board where someone might actually listen?

 

[Captain Dork]

You guys act like you just learned about unions and you will be changing the procedures that have been molded after a hundred year history and the millions of teamsters that came before you-and you will be doing it from the bitch board.
Get a grip, we are are now a union shop. Please run for office and show us the way. Don't forget you must be paid-up to vote and run for office.

 

[fracjack]

You guys act like you just learned about unions and you will be changing the procedures that have been molded after a hundred year history and the millions of teamsters that came before you-and you will be doing it from the bitch board.
Get a grip, we are are now a union shop. Please run for office and show us the way. Don't forget you must be paid-up to vote and run for office.

So now Captain Dork chimes in as the all knowing? The procedures continually change my uninformed friend. Don't forget that it doesnt have to stay Teamsters. Union shop insinuates "closed shop" which is not true. Here's one for ya....the unions must represent non migs grievances to protect their CBA. I guess that's reasonable considering they contractually must pay service fees in lieu of dues.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong but to hold office you must be a continuous migs to be eligible and a onetime strong supporter and candidate for chairperson was eliminated by a technicality of late received dues payments.
Now how bout we just quit bickering and get on with it? Seems the facts I've presented cannot be refuted. There is more union "dirty laundry" but do we need to read it? Shall we just close the case?
Remember Rodney King's saying? Everyone felt sorry for the dude but if you saw the video prior to the news clip beating video you would have had the information and knowledge of his true charachter and that he brought it all on by his behavior. Do the research.

 

[dime line]

Surprisingly thoughtful. You reach a bit factually, but you have some interesting observations.

I wonder why you dont post this kind of thing on the union board where someone might actually listen?

ohhhhh, this is about to get good!

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

WRONG BUCKO.. union koolaid drinkers voluntarily paid without asking. The vote to unionize specifically said no dues until a CBA was approved. Incidentally the vote was quickly rushed before the company could divulge their latest salary increase(reportedly 30% across the board) of which they immediately recinded any possible offer of a pay increase.

Ponder this... since someone compiled a list of 66 non-migs excluding mgtmt pilots of maybe 10 or so would show the 76 out of 300 are not very happy,that's 25% !! Not to include Migs who are not happy but don't wanna rock the leaky boat and you have ineffective leadership,hard feeling amongst the troops and a ton of grievances to eventually fight since many will slowly become aware of the CBA specifics that the company WILL push. Good thing the union has all that war chest money from NetJets.

So tell me again how that industry leading contract is working for ya? The fighting is now between the crews out looking at uniforms to see if they can spot those proud union ID's and ostracize the others who probably don't give a crap. The true mature professional educated crews will not let personal differences in status interfere. Principles and integrity can be displayed from migs and non migs. Paying contractual service fees for employment is a far cry from being treated as SCABS. Follow the money to the problems,it goes both ways.

Frac I did some research and I have found that you are correct on one point. The requirement to pay dues did in fact come after the NMB election. That being said the majority of the pilots support the fact that dues are owed back to Nov 2006. If they did not the majority would not be MIGs themselves and the majority would work to change the financial requirement to be a MIGs. In a republic the majority speaks for the group.

Do you reallly believe that the company would have come up with a raise? Bob T had weeks and months to deal with that prior to the election and didn't. Even if the company had ponied up what would have stopped them from taking away just like they did with the 401k match?

By your math the 1108 is very popular. 75 percent is a very high approval rating in politics. Its a whole lot higher than the President's or Congress.

Ineffective leadership from the 1108? Really? How do you figure that? The fact that they could get any kind of first contract done given the general economy and the state of private aviation I find remarkable.

My industry leading contract at SWA is working out for me rather well thanks for asking.

As for the rest of your post all I read is that you choose not to be a MIGs and you are pissed about how you ae being treated as a result of your poor choice. I know I won't change your mind but let me explain this to you. The support to negoitate the contract came from the Flight Options pilots. They paid up to make that happen. If I were still there I would be resentful too of someone who gets the same benefit of a contract and put forth nothing to get that done. If you want to be treated differently become a MIG or leave. If you choose to leave make sure its to a non union company. I'm sure you would enjoy going back to the rolling duty clock, denied vacation, and forced vacation.

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

Ghetto, That was the first wise thing you have done in a long time. You have no reply to Fracjack or myself because you are wrong. You are wrong for publishing your list and your continued harassment and intimidation of the people on your list is completely unacceptable.

How about re-directing your energy into doing your job and unifying the pilot group instead of fighting with everybody and tearing us apart. You have cost us enough already.

First I didn't publist the list.

What is unacceptable is that Non Migs enjoy the benefits of a contract when they did nothing to support the effort that it took to gain it. The law may allow it but it doesn't make it right. If you act like a freeloader you will be treated like a freeloader. You speak of solidarity. If you want solidarity then why are you defending those that won't pay their fair share to promote the interests of the pilots?

Also how am I tearing the pilots apart? I have been gone for almost 3 years.

 

[1folinepilot]

First I didn't publist the list.

What is unacceptable is that Non Migs enjoy the benefits of a contract when they did nothing to support the effort that it took to gain it. The law may allow it but it doesn't make it right. If you act like a freeloader you will be treated like a freeloader. You speak of solidarity. If you want solidarity then why are you defending those that won't pay their fair share to promote the interests of the pilots?

Also how am I tearing the pilots apart? I have been gone for almost 3 years.

Ghetto, You should have stayed down and quiet while you had the chance, but you don't know any better so every time you open your mouth on this issue, you just become a bigger ass than you already are.

The Pilots of Flight Options voted for representation under the promise that they would not have to pay dues till a contract was ratified. That vote was rushed prior to Bob T giving the pilots their 30% raise, a raise that would have been locked in with Status Quo. A vote was held by the entire membership of the 1108 and the members that voted voted to make dues for the Flight Options Pilots mandatory from Nov 2006 to be considered a MIG. This was a majority of those who voted, not a majority of the entire membership and not a Majority of the Flight Options Pilots. Most of the Flight Options Pilots did not even receive a ballot to vote in a timely fashion to even cast a vote so they did not even have a say in the matter.

For you and your group to now harass and intimidate the members on your list is revolting as there are 42 members on that list that would be signing for a pay cut if they paid the fees you claim they owe from a fraudulent vote, and you say that they are benefiting from the contract? There are members that are quitting here to get away from your harassment and intimidation and you sent your list to SWA and DAL to shotgun their attempt to get away from you?

You are an ass!

 

[G4dude]

Im glad too Pro, but......this is a line in the sand (make no mistake about it, this is a divide) no politically correctness here. These people have made their choice and I (and many others) have made my choice. These people happly accept the contract and provisions but dont financially want to support it.
The union offered a repayment program, 50.00 dollars a month, let me say it again, 50.00 a month till paid up in full, the pilots in question said "No". So again there is a divide. I (and many others) CHOSE to pay in full from day one, they CHOSE to not pay from day, They CHOSE not to take the repayment plan, They CHOSE to complain about it, and I CHOOSE to carry a list.

But they are not seeking to intimidate and coerce you, but you intend to intimidate and coerce them. There is no moral equivalence here. Union thugs disgust me, and I am a member of a union, but not by choice. Shame on you.