Flight Options Job Offer/Decision

[HSDriver]

Face the Facts

I really appreciate the info on the schedules and MX issues. By "cool new jets", I was referring to the Phenom 300 orders. I realize it will be a while until they are online. I fly 20 year old Caravans so anything is new comparatively. I actually fly during the day and usually as a "Hot Standby" at the airport as a backup. Quality of Life has always been more important than money to me. Is Flight Options really that awful that everyone hates it? Or, is the animosity mostly due to low pay that might be somewhat resolved with the hopefully impending contract? I can guess that the 8 on/7 off schedule sounds OK on paper until you have to work 8 consecutive 14 hour days... I would guess that maybe most of those 7 days are just spent recuperating and catching up on home projects instead of having fun... The staff interviewing at Flight Options gave me the impression that they believed the new ownership meant a fresh start for the company. I did notice a huge cadre of about a dozen FAA guys there during my visit though. This is an important decision for me and the main variables with the new ownership and the Union negotiations make this a tough decision. I notice that most of the posts here are extremely negative about FLOPS. Does anyone hold out any hope of a contract improving conditions and morale? There is something to be said for single pilot flying with boxes that don't complain too... My job is pretty low stress. I would hate to bail and find myself in a nightmare scenario. I had been excited about starting at Flight Options (except for the pay cut) until I started reading the posts here. I am really having second thoughts now...

You're 58 years old flying a low stress job that gets you home most days and pays decently. Why would you want to take a pay cut this late in your career and play even more catch-up? I'd be aiming at lifestyle rather than shiny new jets.

The Phenom is not even advertised until late 2009. That means it probably won't even be around until 2010 and then only a trickle of them will come. It will be years before you see it, if at all. Meanwhile you took a huge pay cut and lowered your retirement contributions, for what?

You mentioned the recruiters talking about the new beginning from HIG. The truth is that we (the employees) have heard nothing, not a peep, from HIG. They have made no communication with the pilot group at all. All we've had are some fancy letters from flops talking about the great future of flops. Nothing from HIG.

And yes... you will be dragging after a few 14 hour days. And there are eight of them.

Oh, and I forgot to say. There is no five year upgrade. Guys have been there well over that long and not upgraded. And if the only way that upgrade time shortens is through rapid attrition, what does that tell you?

HS

 

[On Your Six]

So, to bring it all together, just avoid Flight Options. It will be stressful, exhausting and demoralizing. Fractional flying, in general, is very different from the type of flying you are doing now - you need to understand that. It is adhoc and you can be gone for long periods of time if you are up for that. There are a lot of positives, but it would be a major lifestyle change.

Clearly, it would be in your best interest to apply to the other fractionals (Netjets being a top choice) if you want to go that route. Fill out your applications and get moving on that. Your current job is stable and less stressful - not a bad place to be until you hear from the other fractionals.

I would avoid Flight Options like the plague right now (until things get a lot better).

 

[jetwash]

For the upgrade times just look at the numbers.

If Flight Options gets 1 new aircraft a year that is 2 new captain spots. If it gets 3 a year that is 6 captain spots per year.
(2 or 3 aircraft a year is what is forcast)

So you have 6 captain X 10 years = 60 captain spots at the end of 10 years.

You will start at Beecjet copilot # 200. In 10 years there will only be 140 copilots in front of you waiting for an upgrade. That is not counting the Hawker copilots that will probably bid for the Beechjet Captain spots. You can probably cut that number in half from all of the guys quiting so there would only be about 70 guys in front of you in 10 years.

So in your first meeting with the company they have already lied to you.

 

[Freedom]

I'm sorry to hear it too....

I am not sure who Bob is but, I am certainly who I say I am and quite sincere. I was really ready to accept the job offer until reading these posts and replies. I can't tell you how grateful I am for all the candid advice and helping me avoid a miserable mistake. Sorry to hear that you have to be paranoid on this board...

But that is the exact type of environment you would find yourself in should you elect to come to Flight Options.

They have to lie to you and paint a pretty picture, hoping you'll come to work for them, since they can't get anyone qualified.

Here's an idea. Tell them you have done alot of research on the Company, and feel that the Upgrade times will be more like 6-7 years, at minimum. You are still interested in the job, but with that length of time til Upgrade, and having the ability to go to Republic Airlines (3rd largest regional) and be a Captain on an E170 in 2 years with their estimated hiring of 700 pilots next year (look it up on airlinepilotcentral.com), they will have to sweeten the pot for you (or Honey Pot if you prefer, the non flushable lav you will be cleaning out every day full of fecal matter and urine).

Tell them you'd be willing to start for them at what they are advertising as 5th year First Officer pay (1st yr Captain pay) of $4333 per month. Get it in writing, because if their lips are moving, they are lying.

Hell, if they agree, take the job and don't look back.

Freedom is not Free.

 

[skyismyoffice]

They're all telling the truth...

870 pilots when I started 2.5 years ago less than 600 now. This place has done nothing but go down hill...

 

[208starcheck]

The best advise I read on this thread.... Go down to the KLAS Signature and talk to some Flight Options (FLOPS) crews.

The last year or so I've talked to a lot of FLOPS crews. They all have the same opinion. If you ask a couple of their pilots you will have a very accurate survey. It's a shame, they deserve better.

 

[rockwings]

Yes, talking directly to some more of the FLOPS pilots is a good idea but, all of this great advice has pretty much convinced me that I have a great gig now! I would be crazy to take on a stressful nightmare job with a questionable future for less pay and less time at home. It just doesn't add up or make any sense. I am way beyond "shiny new jet syndrome" at this stage in my life... Thanks again to you all for taking the time to help me out in avoiding a real mistake!

 

[Dingo221]

Better go to Atlantic in LAS to meet any of us !

 

[WabiSabi]

I can only hope that even more potential new-hires
checks this board.

Hey Bob or any of you management lackeys! How about them apples?!?!?:laugh:

 

[buckeyes95]

Run Away From Flops As Fast As You Can!

 

[Myster79]

A guy signs up for FlightInfo today... Makes his first post. Is 53 years old flying night freight in a Cessna 208 and wonders whether he should take a paycut by accepting an offer to fly @ FLOPS...

LOL.

"You guys are Dangerous..."

That is great!!! I seriously laughed my a** off...... Then I cried because I work for FLOPS!!!!!

 

[Myster79]

Don't come to FLOPS. It is the worst job I ever had!

 

[Ticker]

A guy signs up for FlightInfo today... Makes his first post. Is 53 years old flying night freight in a Cessna 208 and wonders whether he should take a paycut by accepting an offer to fly @ FLOPS...

LOL.

"You guys are Dangerous..."

After leaving flops after nearly 10 years (doesn't say much for me does it) the 2000 hour freight dogs (single engine, twin, and/or turbine/jet) have been some of the finest pilots I've flown with. Never had a freight dog break down and cry on me. Never had a freight dog make a pax scream out of fear on a totally fubard go around. Never had a freight dog completely disregard a master caution on takoff well below briefed "abort for anything" speed. And last but not least...I've never had a frieght dog that I flew with lower than the top of my list of guys I'd fly with again any time...any where.

Cut the guy some slack. He's doing his homework like he's supposed to.

 

[FR8DOG777]

One of the best posts Iv'e ever read on this board.

Agree with you 110 percent my friend. Those night freight dogs are out there all by themselves in non-radar environments, mountainous terrain, rain or shine. They make a mistake and there dead. The guy was smart enough not to take the job. And what is this shiny new jet syndrome you all speak of? Flops aint got no shiny jets.

 

[jetwash]

Flops aint got no shiny jets.

The 12 year old ones with new paint jobs look shiny

 

[bchjetdrvr]

If you get sick and it is simple you are OK but we have guys that developed cancer then Flight Options kicked them off the insurance and sent them to pay $1100 / month on Cobra. That is the mentality of the management here.

I know that poor guy. It's up to $1400 /mth on Cobra for him.

Rockwings was your interview anything like the job description?

View post #27
http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?p=1461183#post1461183

 

[Hobbes]

Give it a week or two...it all peels off. Then the rivets are shiny for another week or two and then they start corroding. The only stuff that stays on is the over spray they get into places it doesn't belong...

 

[rockwings]

Thanks again!

After leaving flops after nearly 10 years (doesn't say much for me does it) the 2000 hour freight dogs (single engine, twin, and/or turbine/jet) have been some of the finest pilots I've flown with. Never had a freight dog break down and cry on me. Never had a freight dog make a pax scream out of fear on a totally fubard go around. Never had a freight dog completely disregard a master caution on takoff well below briefed "abort for anything" speed. And last but not least...I've never had a frieght dog that I flew with lower than the top of my list of guys I'd fly with again any time...any where.

Cut the guy some slack. He's doing his homework like he's supposed to.

Thanks Ticker for the nice compliment. I do think single pilot IFR in the ice at night is probably the most challenging flying I have ever done. I actually really like flying the Caravan for many reasons and I have flown big fast jets and corporate DC-3s (still my favorite airplane). It kind of feels like my own plane to fly around in sometimes and I can either use the autopilot a lot or hand fly it as much as I want to. No other egos to deal with either and boxes never complain...

There is a lot to be said to being home every night too. I will take time over money and shiny jets any day...

I am still quite disheartened and shocked that everyone has had such awful comments about FLOPS. I had no idea it could be that bad. I am still trying to meet some actual FLOPS crews at the LAS Atlantic FBO to get some in-person opinions but, haven't had any luck yet.

I do wonder how much better it would get with a Union contract but, I realize that could take a long time and who knows what a final contract would include?

The interview at FLOPS was actually very pleasant and it seemed like a great outfit on the surface but, the comments here sure have opened my eyes. It is just sad that the working conditions are really that bad... Aircrews are the frontline of customer service, especially in the corporate jet world. It is in no ones interest to have exhausted and/or pissed off Pilots... I do hope things improve for all of you that still work there!

Thanks again for all the help in my decision making process.

 

[GerryG]

The interview at FLOPS was actually very pleasant and it seemed like a great outfit on the surface but, the comments here sure have opened my eyes.

Yea, they put on a pretty good show there in CGF, but its all smoke and mirrors. A kind of corporate medicine show. Most line pilots only see the inside of that building when they are invited there for what we affectionately refer to as a CGF1 arrival (carpet dance). You didn't see any of those pilots, while you were there, because they were kept out of sight, for interrogation in one of management's subterranean dungeons. Not an uncommon occurrence these days. All part of management's fear and intimidation campaign. I would not advise anyone to put themselves through the ordeal of employment at Flight Options. I think the only reason anyone hangs around this place, is because some of us have a lot invested. Post contract, much will change. Until then, for god's sake stay away, you don't need the headaches.

 

[clickclickboom]

From a guy thta spent 8 years at flops and saw it go from a great little deal to a complete piece of crap my best advice is dont do it..

I hear flops guys on the radio and I actually feel bad for them..

I would think there are opportunities in las and or nj would be the way to go..

 

[ProFracPilot]

I am still trying to meet some actual FLOPS crews at the LAS Atlantic FBO to get some in-person opinions but, haven't had any luck yet.

You must not spend much time at Atlantic. Whenever I'm in LAS, there's at LEAST one other FlOps airplane / crew on the ramp. I spent quite a bit of time there myself this past week. Come up and introduce yourself. We're all nice guys and would be happy to chat with ya.

 

[rockwings]

You must not spend much time at Atlantic. Whenever I'm in LAS, there's at LEAST one other FlOps airplane / crew on the ramp. I spent quite a bit of time there myself this past week. Come up and introduce yourself. We're all nice guys and would be happy to chat with ya.

I don't spend any time at Atlantic since I work on the Cargo side of KLAS. I did finally get to talk to two crews that didn't have anything positive to say either... The big mystery is what, if anything, will change with a contract... I know I should wait to see if they pass a good contract.

I will also keep trying to get good feedback from pilots passing through McCarran.

Thanks again!

 

[rockwings]

Well, I finally got to talk to a Beechjet crew and this was the first positive feedback yet. They didn't make it out to be as bad as the posts on this board say it is... I also know that usually the most disgruntled employees are sometimes the most vocal... These guys said the schedules weren't always 14 hour days and that the new contract should be a good improvement regarding pay and work rules. This actually makes my decision process more difficult because everything is so tenuous at the moment. I know NetJets is obviously the preferred place to work but, I am sure it would be a lot tougher to get hired there with the avalanche of resumes they must have on file now. This is a real quandry....

 

[Frac Cap]

Well, I like to think I am one of the employees that tries to do a good job but at the same time not be taken advantage of. Right now I feel the company is taking advantage of everyone by not paying a standard industry wage. This in turn is turning a lot of good people into disgruntled employees. I am not saying I am disgruntled, but I am just doing my job, nothing more, nothing less. At any company you will find the disgruntled ones and also the happy ones. I see you found the rare happy ones. Yes there was once a time when I would say 85% of the pilots were happy, but now I am afraid it is the other way around. I look forward to the time when we will go the other way.

I have stayed out of this thread not wanting to say anything negative because I see more than enough people are doing that and I try not to be negative but just offer honest opinions. But one thing I will say is that I think it would be inadvisable to leave a job making more money to take a job paying less with a schedule that in not as good as what you have. There is no point in it, unless you like to gamble thinking you may get in before the tide changes. But there is no guarantee. Even I am thinking of jumping ships to NJ. You should just wait in line for your shot at NJ. Because if you were to take the job for less money, then get a offer for NJ, you not only would have lost the money in pay but you would also have to pay off the training contract.

My opinion, don't take a job for less money with a worse quality of life.

Just my 1 cent.

 

[PigPile]

Well, I finally got to talk to a Beechjet crew and this was the first positive feedback yet. They didn't make it out to be as bad as the posts on this board say it is... I also know that usually the most disgruntled employees are sometimes the most vocal... These guys said the schedules weren't always 14 hour days and that the new contract should be a good improvement regarding pay and work rules. This actually makes my decision process more difficult because everything is so tenuous at the moment. I know NetJets is obviously the preferred place to work but, I am sure it would be a lot tougher to get hired there with the avalanche of resumes they must have on file now. This is a real quandry....

Keep asking questions. Lots of questions. Chances are, you will be less than impressed with the answers and the frequency in which you hear them.

 

[johnsonrod]

Well, I finally got to talk to a Beechjet crew and this was the first positive feedback yet. They didn't make it out to be as bad as the posts on this board say it is... I also know that usually the most disgruntled employees are sometimes the most vocal... These guys said the schedules weren't always 14 hour days and that the new contract should be a good improvement regarding pay and work rules. This actually makes my decision process more difficult because everything is so tenuous at the moment. I know NetJets is obviously the preferred place to work but, I am sure it would be a lot tougher to get hired there with the avalanche of resumes they must have on file now. This is a real quandry....

You would be choosing to go to the industry's worst employer. Just imagine the stress and regret you could feel once you see what else is out there. I wouldn't waste my time with FLOPS - spend that same time working on the apps for Netjets, Flexjet, Avantair and Citationshares if you really want to go the fractional route.

FLOPS is the abyss and it could be for a very, very long time.

 

[WabiSabi]

Well, I finally got to talk to a Beechjet crew and this was the first positive feedback yet. They didn't make it out to be as bad as the posts on this board say it is... I also know that usually the most disgruntled employees are sometimes the most vocal... These guys said the schedules weren't always 14 hour days and that the new contract should be a good improvement regarding pay and work rules. This actually makes my decision process more difficult because everything is so tenuous at the moment. I know NetJets is obviously the preferred place to work but, I am sure it would be a lot tougher to get hired there with the avalanche of resumes they must have on file now. This is a real quandry....

The next time you talk to a FLOPS crew, see if they're wearing an IBT pin resembling this logo. The majority of FLOPS pilots are dues paying members in good standing with the IBT 1108. If they are not wearing the pin on their tie, ID, lapel etc., then chances are that they're Kool Aid drinkers and/or have their heads in the sand.

Keep in mind that if you're looking for what you want to hear, you'll eventually hear it. Try to keep any excitement from the smoke and mirrors job at your interview at bay and stay objective.

 

[rockwings]

It still sounds pretty bleak... I guess I always look for the upside to any job. I really hope you all get the contract you deserve but, will that be enough to repair the damage done to morale already? I also know management can be vindictive after unions win contracts...

I actually doubt that Netjets is a viable option for me. That is why I kind of thought of this as maybe my best last chance to fly corporate jets. NJ didn't hire a fellow pilot here that applied a while ago.

That Beechjet cockpit is pretty small compared to the roomy Caravan too! It could be a long time before upgrade to a bigger plane in that cramped seat... I doubt I would ever see the inside of the Hawker 800, Citation X or the Legacy...much less the Phenom 300...unless of course Everyone bails and the upgrades increase exponentially! Hard to figure out if there is a potential "Wave" or if I would be jumping into a "Riptide". I have always wanted to surf the Banzai Pipeline but, have never been foolish enough to try it yet!

 

[SilverSurfer]

Common sence

It still sounds pretty bleak... I guess I always look for the upside to any job. I really hope you all get the contract you deserve but, will that be enough to repair the damage done to morale already? I also know management can be vindictive after unions win contracts...

I actually doubt that Netjets is a viable option for me. That is why I kind of thought of this as maybe my best last chance to fly corporate jets. NJ didn't hire a fellow pilot here that applied a while ago.

That Beechjet cockpit is pretty small compared to the roomy Caravan too! It could be a long time before upgrade to a bigger plane in that cramped seat... I doubt I would ever see the inside of the Hawker 800, Citation X or the Legacy...much less the Phenom 300...unless of course Everyone bails and the upgrades increase exponentially! Hard to figure out if there is a potential "Wave" or if I would be jumping into a "Riptide". I have always wanted to surf the Banzai Pipeline but, have never been foolish enough to try it yet!

Dude just use good common since. You may see Floptions as your only opportunity or the easiest way to move into jets but at what cost. If all you want is a type and a little time in a jet and you don't care about how $hitty the conditions are while doing it maybe it would be the deal for you. Personally I think as others have said here you should concentrate you efforts at the other fractional. They are going to be losing pilots to the pay and benefits a NJ just as Floptions and looking for pilots to replace them. The pay benefits and working conditions a Floptions are the worst in the industry and will be until we have a contract. Floptions is run by a management that seems bent on fostering a $hitty relationship between the pilots and management. Until Floptions management changes either voluntarily or by force this will not be a good place to hang your employment hat.

Spend more time at Atlantic LAS you will find fare more pilot that have the views you have seen on this thread then you will the pilots that think all is good.

 

[skyismyoffice]

I actually doubt that Netjets is a viable option for me. That is why I kind of thought of this as maybe my best last chance to fly corporate jets. NJ didn't hire a fellow pilot here that applied a while ago.

Not sure why you would say that? Won't know if you don't try. Granted, right now everyone wants to go to NJ and it will be the hardest fractional to get on with. I'm not really a 'complainer' and I will tell you that you are getting the straight scoop. Unless you are low time looking for your first type rating and some jet time or a high time social misfit who can't get a job anywhere else - you can do better.