Flight Options Job Offer/Decision

[rockwings]

I have been offered a pilot position at Flight Options. I was not aware of maybe how bad the morale there might be until reading the posts on this board... I now wonder what to do... Should I take a $16,000 pay cut to fly cool new jets and hope conditions improve with the recent buyout and tentative Union contract? The Flight Options pay scale has more top end potential than my current company but, it will be years at this current Fight Options scale to get back to a decent wage. Is the 8 on/7 off schedule a good one or are you completely burnt out by day 8? Do they work you to death with multiple 14 hour days? How often do they make you work past day 8? I would domicile in LAS. I am not looking for time building since I am late in my career (53yrs old flying C-208s for a FedEx feeder with a fairly decent schedule-home almost every night, although sometimes gone up to 13 hours a day with 5 of them in a hotel, and 2 days off each week). I really wonder how long it would take to recoup the initial pay cut since I am now investing 20K each year into my 401K and I would have to cut that back to only $4,000 for a few years. What are usual upgrade times? I am leaning towards accepting the job mainly because of the H.I.G. buyout and the new plane order looking like a good time to come on board, but I would really love some objective inside advice from current employees...both disgruntled and content. It seems like the new changes will be good for the future to me but, I am pretty naive as to the current conditions. I welcome any advice to aid in my decision process. Thanks!

 

[choppengruven]

I worked there for 5 years. All I can say is "Run Forrest Run!!"

When the shiny jet syndrome and the hope of "things getting better" you'll come to the realization that you're stuck at the worst job you've ever had. When 8 year captains are bailing for 45K year jobs that should speak volumes to you. The 8 day rotation is about as bad as it gets. You'll be dragging your tail into the hotel after only day three with min rest to boot. The word upgrade will be non existant.

 

[Duke of Ale]

Have you applied to Netjets? You can be based in LAS and the company matches 50% of your contribution to the 401k up to 15%. Plus they also match the catch-up money but you have to max out the 401k first. ($15,500) + ($5000) /2 = $10,250 by the company. Health insurance is free for the family.

 

[dime line]

I have been offered a pilot position at Flight Options. I was not aware of maybe how bad the morale there might be until reading the posts on this board... I now wonder what to do... Should I take a $16,000 pay cut to fly cool new jets and hope conditions improve with the recent buyout and tentative Union contract? The Flight Options pay scale has more top end potential than my current company but, it will be years at this current Fight Options scale to get back to a decent wage. Is the 8 on/7 off schedule a good one or are you completely burnt out by day 8? Do they work you to death with multiple 14 hour days? How often do they make you work past day 8? I would domicile in LAS. I am not looking for time building since I am late in my career (53yrs old flying C-208s for a FedEx feeder with a fairly decent schedule-home almost every night, although sometimes gone up to 13 hours a day with 5 of them in a hotel, and 2 days off each week). I really wonder how long it would take to recoup the initial pay cut since I am now investing 20K each year into my 401K and I would have to cut that back to only $4,000 for a few years. What are usual upgrade times? I am leaning towards accepting the job mainly because of the H.I.G. buyout and the new plane order looking like a good time to come on board, but I would really love some objective inside advice from current employees...both disgruntled and content. It seems like the new changes will be good for the future to me but,

I am pretty naive as to the current conditions.

I welcome any advice to aid in my decision process. Thanks!

No your not, just read this board. All these pilots that talk trash about FLOPS can't be all wrong.

This has to be the worst job I've ever had (was the best)

> We sit crew rot all day, 12-14hrs is not unherd of.
> Copilots will sit crew rot with no captain.
> When Micky D's is better than a free crew meal, hmm
> Hotels...where do I start. Days Inn, Quality Inn, Sleep Inn
> we now have to wait at the airport terminal in NY, for our partner to show up. ex. one pilot airlines in at 11am and the other airlines in at 3pm, the 11am guy has to wait for the 3pm guy to show up, then they both go to the FBO
> Day 8, you are not the primary concern. Unwritten policy =no airlines before 3pm, so duty on at the FBO at 7am and wait till 5pm airlines to get you home in 15 hr and 55 min. Company policy on day 8 is 16hrs.
> health insurance sucks
> rules change every day

and I'm sure if you do a search you will find a lot more fun and excitement here at FLOPS. But please just talk to a few pilots on the road they will clue you in.....

Oh and "cool new jets".....where did you come up with that one?? Most of these jets have 6000+ hrs on them, so no there not new

And Maintenance..... Most airplanes have at least 10 MELs on them at any given time. Anytime scheduling needs a plane out of mx, they just sign it off "could not duplicate". Oh and If the company could MDL, yes MDL, a motor they will. Its up to you to say no, they WILL try to talk you out of writing things up.

And last but not least the FEDs are investigating us at this time....

 

[gunfyter]

A guy signs up for FlightInfo today... Makes his first post. Is 53 years old flying night freight in a Cessna 208 and wonders whether he should take a paycut by accepting an offer to fly @ FLOPS...

LOL.

"You guys are Dangerous..."

 

[fischman]

I have been offered a pilot position at Flight Options. I was not aware of maybe how bad the morale there might be until reading the posts on this board... I now wonder what to do... Should I take a $16,000 pay cut to fly cool new jets and hope conditions improve with the recent buyout and tentative Union contract? The Flight Options pay scale has more top end potential than my current company but, it will be years at this current Fight Options scale to get back to a decent wage. Is the 8 on/7 off schedule a good one or are you completely burnt out by day 8? Do they work you to death with multiple 14 hour days? How often do they make you work past day 8? I would domicile in LAS. I am not looking for time building since I am late in my career (53yrs old flying C-208s for a FedEx feeder with a fairly decent schedule-home almost every night, although sometimes gone up to 13 hours a day with 5 of them in a hotel, and 2 days off each week). I really wonder how long it would take to recoup the initial pay cut since I am now investing 20K each year into my 401K and I would have to cut that back to only $4,000 for a few years. What are usual upgrade times? I am leaning towards accepting the job mainly because of the H.I.G. buyout and the new plane order looking like a good time to come on board, but I would really love some objective inside advice from current employees...both disgruntled and content. It seems like the new changes will be good for the future to me but, I am pretty naive as to the current conditions. I welcome any advice to aid in my decision process. Thanks!

I do not fly for FLOPS, but would not recommend going there.

You more than meet the qualifications to come to NetJets. Send your resume there. You will start off at $56,875 on the 7&7 schedule $62,563 on the 15 day or $68,188 on the 18 day. Plus the above mentioned 401k match, company paid for medical, dental, and vision.

Good luck with your decision.

 

[rockwings]

Thanks for the info.

I really appreciate the info on the schedules and MX issues. By "cool new jets", I was referring to the Phenom 300 orders. I realize it will be a while until they are online. I fly 20 year old Caravans so anything is new comparatively. I actually fly during the day and usually as a "Hot Standby" at the airport as a backup. Quality of Life has always been more important than money to me. Is Flight Options really that awful that everyone hates it? Or, is the animosity mostly due to low pay that might be somewhat resolved with the hopefully impending contract? I can guess that the 8 on/7 off schedule sounds OK on paper until you have to work 8 consecutive 14 hour days... I would guess that maybe most of those 7 days are just spent recuperating and catching up on home projects instead of having fun... The staff interviewing at Flight Options gave me the impression that they believed the new ownership meant a fresh start for the company. I did notice a huge cadre of about a dozen FAA guys there during my visit though. This is an important decision for me and the main variables with the new ownership and the Union negotiations make this a tough decision. I notice that most of the posts here are extremely negative about FLOPS. Does anyone hold out any hope of a contract improving conditions and morale? There is something to be said for single pilot flying with boxes that don't complain too... My job is pretty low stress. I would hate to bail and find myself in a nightmare scenario. I had been excited about starting at Flight Options (except for the pay cut) until I started reading the posts here. I am really having second thoughts now...

 

[dime line]

My post was not sugar coated, Ask away about my comments to any FLOPS pilot and I know you will hear the same thing. Prove me wrong.

You said your looking for QOL, this is not the place to be looking for that......

 

[1po'dpilot]

Rockwings,
I left Options and I would not recommend the place to my worst enemy. It is hands down the worst run company I have ever worked for! Options does everything in their power to skirt the regs or flat out violate them, and are in complete disregard of safety (yes I speak from experiance). The only thing keeping Options afloat is their crews, the pilots are the best thing that Options has going for them and they routinely fail to realise this...
The phenom order is just that - an order. When they show up on property then I'll believe it.
I flew cargo before leaving and it was a much better job than the one I took at Options, when I started there it was a good job, the turnover in management changed that quickly.
As far as the sale to HIG, dont think because theyve been sold that they are in better hands. Look at HIG's past record with Gemini and Amerijet... Anyone that thought Options was stripped to the bone now, wait until HIG is done with them. I was in training at my present job with a guy from Amerijet and he had nothing but bad things to say about HIG (sorry to rain on anyones parade).
Rock if youre interested in fractional flying - youve got the mins to go to a real company like NetJets, they treat their pilots with dignity and respect, you will make more, the company match is better, you can live where you want... just my .02 worth...

 

[be-400xpdriver]

I was listening to a senior negotiator at NJA. He said he was in the the negotiating room when the turning point in the 05 negotiations happened. That was when Moisture realized that the nja pilots where ready to burn the place down rather than take the company offer/continue with the 98cba. FLOPS pilots will not get a contract until then make managment realize they are ready to burn the place down..

 

[WabiSabi]

I notice that most of the posts here are extremely negative about FLOPS.

I can understand if you think this message board is not representative of the true state of morale @ FLOPS. Many message boards are often frequented by the fringes. However, what you read about FLOPS is an exception.

Towards the beginning. support for union representation was almost nil. The first drive didn't even yield enough cards for a vote to be held, not even close. In less than 2 years, not only were enough cards sent in for a vote but, 67% of the pilot group voted for Teamsters representation. There were even fervent anti union pilots that are now involved in the leadership and gladly paying dues. Even some of the management can do no wrong a$$ kissers are now supporters and flying the pledge.

Pilots have been leaving in droves. Ask one of those optimistic managers that interviewed you about pilot attrition, especially lately. There is also a mass exodus of mechanics. They often have to use contract mechanics for scheduled maintenance.

Don't let management paint a rosey picture. They have LIED to the pilot group time and again. Haven't you been in aviation for a while? You should never make a decision based on airplanes a company says they will get. They won't even pay the price for decent interiors and paint jobs. Just hang out @ LAS and ask a FLOPS Beechjet pilot if you can look in their plane....especially if they have a TA or CW tail number. Some of the planes would probably make your freighter Caravan look pristine.

I recently left there after 6 years and I accepted a 16,000.00 pay cut and I could not be happier. Working at FLOPS was an everyday battle. Not only were you driven to fatigue by long days, 5 am shows for a 3 pm departure and cheap hotel beds. A large part of the fatigue was from the constant fighting with management and mx controllers trying to convince you that your airplane was airworthy when it clearly wasn't. It is also a drain on your energy when you know that you could be next to do the carpet dance at HQ for something stupid on their part. (many pilots have been called in because their legs per day was lower than most and it took a union rep to point out to management how ridiculous it was to blame the pilots. In every case, it was shown that it was scheduling and maintenance yet, management kept conducting these "productivity meetings"These "productivity meetings" have stopped for now...perhaps because they realized that it wasn't very productive to take a pilot off line and pay the extra expense in airfares. HOWEVER, they are still calling in pilots for other bogus reasons they have conjured up In other words, management is on a constant intimidation campaign)

We have had pilots leave aviation altogether because of FLOPS. It was so bad for so long, their perception of working in aviation became tainted. They were so disgruntled that they thought every aviation gig was like FLOPS. Also, it isn't a question of insatiable pilots wanting rose petals thrown at their feet with a grass is always greener no matter where you work mentality. FLOPS just truly sucks and management has ZERO respect for the pilots.

Anyway, as was advised in other threads, shoot for any of the other fracs. They are all hiring. Good luck.

 

[Wankel7]

I am such a newb to this stuff...but since it is so bad over there why don't the pilots strike?

 

[WabiSabi]

I am such a newb to this stuff...but since it is so bad over there why don't the pilots strike?

First you have to have a contract and that contract has to have a strike clause. It is illegal for the union to organize a work action. Besides, it is probably not a good idea in the middle of contract negotiations. Pilots that are doing so should continue to "fly the pledge" and if more pilots do so, then that should accomplish what I think that you're implying.

 

[johnsonrod]

It's tempting, but you really shouldn't do it. FLOPS has a proud group of pilots, but it really represents the worst in terms of management. There is no long-term thinking for management - it is slash and burn. Why put yourself through that? Think of it this way - all of the other fractionals besides FLOPS will be hiring to cover their own attrition due to Netjets. That means you could get offers from Flexjet, Citationshares and Avantair. I believe both Citationshares and Avantair have LAS domiciles - check them out. Of course, apply to Netjets (at least get in line) as well.

FLOPS would be a big mistake. Great pilots but a crappy situation that won't likely get better for a long time. Avoid that needless stress...

 

[Frac Cap]

Rockwings, how much did they say the training contract would cost if you left?

 

[rockwings]

They didn't tell me what the training contract would cost... they left that "blank" on the form... I imagine it to be at least $12,000 or more. It is really sad to hear that conditions there are so bad. I was really kind of looking forward to flying jets again and now I am pretty disillusioned about the whole deal. I guess I just can't grasp the reasoning behind any management team treating a fairly valuable asset like a pilot so poorly... A real shame! I guess I was being blind and too optimistic about the new owners and the future contract. I still think the contract might really improve the whole situation but, that is a definite unknown... I hate to roll the dice and lose...I do live in LAS after all!

 

[VA Buckeye]

Rock,

Great bunch of pilots at FLOPS but miserable management get your resume and app. to NetJets NOW. FLOPS is a nightmare, I have been there just short of 8 years and will be leaving in about a month for better QoL ,working less days/month and a pay cut.

 

[dime line]

what was the upgrade time?
What schedule did they tell you, you would be on?

 

[jetwash]

14 hour days for 8 days in a row with 10 hours min rest. Stand by at FBO at 5:00 am for a 12:00 noon departure. Is what you have to look forward to. Oh did I mention that on Day 8 it is some times up to 16 hours duty before you get home at 1:00am. That is if they get you airlines in time. I had may occasions when I came home day 9 at noon.

As for taking a $14,000 pay cut you will never make it up at Flight Options. Expect to be right seat in a BeechJet for 8 to 10 years. Also consider the health insurance. If you get sick and it is simple you are OK but we have guys that developed cancer then Flight Options kicked them off the insurance and sent them to pay $1100 / month on Cobra. That is the mentality of the management here.

If you do take the job at Flight Options please post the name of your current employer since I know of a few Flight options pilots who will be looking for a pay increase and a more stress free work environment.

 

[rockwings]

Wow, it sure isn't looking good over there... They kind of alluded to maybe a 5 year upgrade time but, said that SIC pay would match Captain pay after 5 years. I had no clue that it would actually take up to 10 years! The schedule is now 8 on/7 off company wide which now doesn't seem that appealing considering the posts. Kicking employees off of Health Insurance for a serious illness is about the worst thing I have heard here! I sure have not heard anything positive to make me want to work there... Thank you all for being so candid. It is the kind of real information I needed!