Flg 3701 Audio Tape

[MJG]

Well I give it less than a week until some duchebag passenger sticks his head in the cockpit on his way onboard the plane and asks us if we're planning on having any fun today. Thanks KSTP.

 

[Daveman]

Would it bother you if the surgeon was listening to Megadeth during the surgery?

He11 yea it would. You've seen the affect Dave Mustaine has on people.
"Die Dead Enough" ring a bell..........


Dave

 

[FL000]

...Not doing anything dangerous.

?????

 

[Mel Sharples]

Those of us who have had the benefit of hand-flying older, under-powered junk in the upper corners of the cruise charts may have recognized the situation they got into, but that is the benefit of having had that experience, and to use the innocent remark of "having fun" against that crew, while understandable from the news media, is unforgiveable from pilots who should know better, and if that shoe stinks, it's probably yours.

I don't think anyone here is trying to use "having fun" against the crew. Go back and re-read the posts. What I and others have said is that the media and the public are going to crucify them for that statement. I don't blame them for saying it, but the public won't be so forgiving.

My only potential problem is why they were even at 410. Just to do it? Just to say you've been there? That's fine, and I can understand it. But you also need to know how much different it's going to be when you are at that altitude.

You said it yourself, Ty. Some people might have anticipated that problem, many would not have. But I say again, just because it CAN go there doesn't mean they SHOULD have necessary. And that is NOT me casting the blame on them. Just saying what the NTSB will end up concluding. Most accidents end up being pilot error anyway, according to the NTSB.

So take your panties out of the knot they are in. We are discussing this in an adult way (as in how to avoid it happening again) and not trashing the dead pilots' memories.

The "having fun" comment has only been discussed from the media end so relax, Francis. It's gonna be alright.

 

[jarhead]

Well I give it less than a week until some duchebag passenger sticks his head in the cockpit on his way onboard the plane and asks us if we're planning on having any fun today. Thanks KSTP.

Well there's some insight most don't have. BTW, if it were not for those "duchebag" passengers, the crew, and everyone else at Pinnacle would not have a job. The passengers (customers) are who pays everyone’s paycheck, whether it's at Pinnacle, NWA, or Macy's department store. Try running any business without customers, and you'll soon discover that they are the only reason for an employer to hire you or anyone else.

And yes, "Thanks, KSTP", I want to know what's going on around me, be it reporting of accidents, bad doctors, fraud at Enron or WorldCom, and serial rapists in a neighborhood. Don't take it out on the media. They did not cause this crash; they reported on it. If you can't handle it, I suggest you bury your head in the sand like an ostrich. Then you can stay "happy"

 

[Dumbledore]

The fact remains that these guys died doing what they loved. "Having fun" enjoying their job. Not doing anything dangerous.

Excuse me???? They did at least one thing that was dangerous - so dangerous that it KILLED THEM! And what they did would have killed everyone on board had they tried it with paying passengers in back. That's not fun - or funny!

But I guess we have to let the NTSB sort all that out, don't we? And when that report comes out and says what more than a few people have been saying about the causes of this accident since the night it happened we'll all be able to say exactly the same things we've been saying because the NTSB published it, right?

While I agree that the media never seems to get it right where aviation stories are concerned, it seems to me to be equally obvious that pilots never get it right when they refuse to learn from obvious mistakes made aboard an accident aircraft prior to the event. Those things are here. They have been spelled out by people who are familiar with the aircraft and its handling characteristics. Their thoughts have been suppported with the thoughts of others well versed in the rigors of high-altitude flight.

It's time to remove heads from the sand beneath your feet guys.

 

[Dodge]

ooops

 

[Dodge]

Would it bother you if the surgeon was listening to Megadeth during the surgery?

Not as long as it was in his/her general ops manual as an approved listening device during surgery.

 

[MJG]

Jarhead,

No offense meant to you but since you've never flown these "paying customers" for a living, you simply will never understand where I and many others here, venting against the media are coming from.

We are the ones who have to put up with these ignorant, uninformed and just childish comments from these smart-*sses who think that just because they have a boarding pass in their hands they're automatically an aviation expert.

The media, like others have stated, will latch onto this "having fun" statement and run with it. They will make news out of something that by itself, is clearly not news. That's the problem these days. The media no longer reports on the news. They create the news for themselves and run with it from there with no oversight. Even the mighty Dan Rather fell victim to this irresponsible practice.

For heaven's sake, read the transcript that KSTP tried to translate to match the audio. It is full of errors and mistakes. No oversight, no accountability.

Unbelievable.

 

[Jumpseater]

One time... While taxing, out I was telling the captain about boneing my girfiend on the overnight. Then I realized it might be taken ou of context by my wife. So I made sure, for the CVR really, that the captain understood she was realy just an FA.

 

[jarhead]

Jarhead,

No offense meant to you but since you've never flown these "paying customers" for a living, you simply will never understand where I and many others here, venting against the media are coming from.

We are the ones who have to put up with these ignorant, uninformed and just childish comments from these smart-*sses who think that just because they have a boarding pass in their hands they're automatically an aviation expert.

The media, like others have stated, will latch onto this "having fun" statement and run with it. They will make news out of something that by itself, is clearly not news. That's the problem these days. The media no longer reports on the news. They create the news for themselves and run with it from there with no oversight. Even the mighty Dan Rather fell victim to this irresponsible practice.

For heaven's sake, read the transcript that KSTP tried to translate to match the audio. It is full of errors and mistakes. No oversight, no accountability.

Unbelievable.

You are indeed correct that I have never flown the paying customers you allude to. I still know that customers, while ignorant of the inner workings of any business, are the sole means of support for our paycheck. The customer may not always be right, the he is ALWAYS the customer. That was true for my business, and it is true for yours as well.

I tend to keep my ear close to the rail on this stuff, as I have a son who is a 9 year captain at Comair, on the same aircraft the PCL crew crashed. I know about Comair's high altitude training regimen. I am in the dark about Pinnacle's. Beyond being a pilot on the CRJ200, my son also has been a sim instructor at CMR, and is very familiar with high altitude operations, and has over 200 times flown the sim at high altitude with double engine failures, so he has an advantage of perspective most pilots do not have. He has also been at FL410 in the actual aircraft while on a ferry flight. He knows what he talks about to me, and will not publicly comment on the Pinnacle problem with the flight in question. That's fine.

While the news media may not always get things 100% accurate, they make their best effort. You may not like it that the KSTP report was not sanitized by a Pinnacle pilot, but that's the way the cookie crumbles. To compare the actual audio tapes on 3701 to Dan Rather's problem on 60 minutes, is a red herring; it has nothing at all in common with an audio transcript being put out on the airwaves.

 

[capt. megadeth]

Well there's some insight most don't have. BTW, if it were not for those "duchebag" passengers, the crew, and everyone else at Pinnacle would not have a job. The passengers (customers) are who pays everyone’s paycheck, whether it's at Pinnacle, NWA, or Macy's department store. "

1. you forgot to say SMALL paycheck
2. you also forgot that these we are essentially subsidizing cheap travel for all these people in America. I can't even say goodbye to these people anymore because it makes me sick that I have to go to my second job on my day off. Meanwhile, they got to go on vacation at the same price that they could have in 1980.

 

[surplus1]

Jarhead,

No offense meant to you but since you've never flown these "paying customers" for a living,

you simply will never understand where I and many others here, venting against the media are coming from.

Maybe jarhead hasn't flown any paying passengers for a living, but I sure have and I think his assesment of how the "customers" will see this is pretty accurate. It's not much different from how I see it either.

While it is true that the media often "reports" inaccurately on aircraft
accidents/incidents, in this case it appears they were not doing a lot of guessing. They merely played exerpts from a recording of an actual conversation. It doesn't surprise me that pilots, myself included, are not so happy with the broadcast of this tape but frankly, that begs the question.

Regardless of how much "fun" we all like to have or may be having at any in-flight point in time, that isn't really what's important about this tape release, at lest not in my view.

What the remark tells me is that the particular aircraft was taken to FL 410, by its crew, intentionally and for no purpose other than their own entertainment; at best a questopmable activity in a 20 million dollar airplane that doesn't belong to you.

Having "fun" is a recreational activity. Operating an airliner is a professional activity (a job if you prefer). From my perspective the two don't mix. Granted the job is enjoyable (that's why I chose it) but that doesn't make it a recreational activity.

Another important point that seems to be ignored so far in this thread, is that the audio and the transcript do NOT appear to be from a CVR. This appears to be a controller's tape and it reports only the exchange between the controller(s) and the flight crew; probably only parts of it. Therefore, the "sanctity" of the CVR tape has NOT been violated. Controller tapes have never been
"secret" and are always available to the media if they ask enough. CVR tapes are not available, by law. You (pl) and I will never hear the CVR tape (unless you are an official party to the investigation, and even all of those don't get to hear the CVR tape) and will only see a transcript of "excerpts from that tape after the final report comes out. If there is a "public" hearing, relatives of the crew may be allowed to listen. In other words, this broadcast didn't violate any protocols.

Nevertheless, we learn several things from it. 1) The aircraft did reach FL410; 2) It went there apparently for no particular operational reason; 3) The unusual altitude (for the type) was uncommon enough to be noticed by the controller and questioned (resulting in the

"fun" explanation/remark). 4) Shortly after reaching the altitude (no time is given) something went very wrong; 5) The talking pilots indicated a "stall" 5) Power was lost on at least one (1) of the 2 engines; 6) At a later time both engines were reported "out" and the nearest airport was requested; 7) The altitude remaining was then reported as 9,500 feet.

Those with any knowledge of this aircraft type already know that it can maintain altitudes far above 9,500 feet with only one operating engine. Therefore, it is not unreasonable to presume that the 2nd engine failure occured somewhere above 9,500 feet and possibly as high as FL410. We don't know where but we do know it wasn't at 9.5 since the aircraft was apparently NOT proceeding to any airport before it asked for "the nearest airport". Is it
wrong to notice that or to ask about it?

This is a "public" forum but it also true that the overwhelming majority of members/readers of this forum are not the general public. We are professional aviators, aspiring professional aviators, private pilots and people directly associated with all of those. A realitively "controlled" audience of mostly "aviation people".

Discussions about what happened and why a particular accident occurred always contain speculation of a degree and conjecture from known information. This "tape" is part of the known information, as are the preliminary reports of the NTSB. The fact that we talk about them, ask questions, voice opinions, etc., does not mean, at least to me, that we are trying to blame anyone or disparage anyone's reputation. It means that we are trying to determine a
probable cause based on the information we have available. That information will not be as complete as the NTSB team gets, but there's enough of it (in this case) to give some reasonable ideas of how this "event" may have started. I don't see that as being disrespectful to the memory of the crew. WE who fly this and similar aircraft need to know as much as we can as soon as we can, in hopes that we might thereby avoid experiencing the same problem, with the same result, long before a final NTSB report, which we may never see, comes out. To me, there's nothing wrong with that.

If I should have a wreck I would want you all to know as much about it as possible so that you aren't exposed to the same thing. If it turns out I made an error, especially one that was fatal, so be it. The objective of the discussions is future avoidance of the same problem, not an attempt to blackball the flight crew.

None of us can live through this profession without making mistakes. Fortunately for everyone most mistakes are not fatal. But, accidents don't just "happen", they are caused. Unfortunately, most of them are caused by people that fly airplanes. We really aren't sky gods and we do screw up much more than any of us wants to admit. If and when the cause turns out to be an avoidable "mistake" it only helps the profession to learn that and hopefully
avoid repeating it in the future. There is no legitimate flight crew (Arab fanatics don't count) that intentionally crashes an aircraft. Some accidents are unavoidable, but the majority are not. The more we learn and talk about them, regardless of the probable cause, the safer we fly tomorrow.

Maybe I'm in left field but I don't think this particular TV news report was ignorant, uninformed or childish. It wasn't pretty, and it wasn't favorable, but it was very straight forward. What the pilot and controller said to each other is a fact. Reporting the facts is the newsman's job. Hiding the facts is not part of a pilot's job. Neither is choosing a particular altitude for "fun"; especially one that pushes the performance envelope of the particular aircraft. The best I can do is call the "fun" remark an unfortunate choice of words by a professional pilot.

Perhaps I'm wrong but that's how I see it.

 

[Mel Sharples]

Perhaps I'm wrong but that's how I see it.

A little long-winded, but I agree with almost everything you said. Good analysis.

 

[VGerect]

The best I can do is call the "fun" remark an unfortunate choice of words by a professional pilot.

How true.

 

[Lear70]

If the high-altitude cruise chart data showed they could expect to cruise at FL410 and maintain a 1.3 or 1.4G margin at the prevailing temperature, then there was no reason not to go up there, and you clowns that are Monday-morning quarterbacking them are a sorry bunch of idiots.

Thank God for the voice of reason. NO ONE ON THIS BOARD WAS THERE. Why are we even hashing this out before the NTSB Final Report is out?

Someone asked on the first page what data PCL uses for altitude determination - it's in our FCOM Volume 2 which every pilot has in their kit bag. FL 41,0 is obtainable under a relatively wide envelope of weights and temperatures and I've been up there several times in this aircraft, and used to cruise there DAILY in other aircraft.

NONE of you are NTSB accident investigators on the scene,,, NEITHER AM I. Give it a rest.

 

[NuGuy]

Thank God for the voice of reason. NO ONE ON THIS BOARD WAS THERE. Why are we even hashing this out before the NTSB Final Report is out?

Someone asked on the first page what data PCL uses for altitude determination - it's in our FCOM Volume 2 which every pilot has in their kit bag. FL 41,0 is obtainable under a relatively wide envelope of weights and temperatures and I've been up there several times in this aircraft, and used to cruise there DAILY in other aircraft.

NONE of you are NTSB accident investigators on the scene,,, NEITHER AM I. Give it a rest.

Lear,

Give it a rest... we simply cannot have people comming into the forum injecting reason and common sense...DON'T let it happen again...

Nu

 

[Dumbledore]

If the high-altitude cruise chart data showed they could expect to cruise at FL410 and maintain a 1.3 or 1.4G margin at the prevailing temperature, then there was no reason not to go up there, and you clowns that are Monday-morning quarterbacking them are a sorry bunch of idiots.

Sorry dude but that won't fly. It won't fly for the same reason that, as EVERYONE here who has ever ACTUALLY flown an airliner knows, there are times when you just can't have the faith in the airport analysis that it's supposed to inspire - your airplane is just too whooped and the engines are just too tired. Sometimes the airplane you have in your possession just won't do what it would have done the day it rolled out green from the factory.

I don't care what the book says about what my airplane will do. If it doesn't seem like it's gonna do it I abandon the try. It's just not worth a jet upset incident (or worse as these guys demonstrated).

Thank God for the voice of reason. NO ONE ON THIS BOARD WAS THERE. Why are we even hashing this out before the NTSB Final Report is out?

Because there is plenty that can be learned from the conjecture that is most likely not that far from the mark here while we wait for the vaunted NTSB to tell us all what we already know. The plane went too high for the weight and temperature that night and it stalled - repeatedly - before things got really out of hand. After that the crew did not respond appropriately to the double engine failure that they wound up with as a result. That much is not open to speculation - it's in the preliminary NTSB updates. Go read them if you don't believe me. They were supposed to get the plane above 300 KIAS to attempt an airstart and they never got there.

Someone asked on the first page what data PCL uses for altitude determination - it's in our FCOM Volume 2 which every pilot has in their kit bag. FL 41,0 is obtainable under a relatively wide envelope of weights and temperatures and I've been up there several times in this aircraft, and used to cruise there DAILY in other aircraft.

At least you're smart enough to avoid saying you cruise there daily in the CRJ. In fact, I note with interest that you specifically say you've ventured up to FL 410 "several times". Hmm. I'm thinkin' there must be a reason for that and it isn't because it gets there like a Gulfstream or a Lear.

 

[Lear70]

At least you're smart enough to avoid saying you cruise there daily in the CRJ. In fact, I note with interest that you specifically say you've ventured up to FL 410 "several times". Hmm. I'm thinkin' there must be a reason for that and it isn't because it gets there like a Gulfstream or a Lear.

The few times we "ventured" that high was, quite simply, because I was flying with first officers who had never flown jets before, much less been into the higher altitudes, and I believed it good instruction for them to feel firsthand what the aircraft handled like at that altitude and have a nice conversation about high altitude aerodynamics because, quite frankly, our training does NOT cover it. (And yes, all three times the aircraft was empty - two aircraft deliveries and one MX reposition similar to what these guys were doing).

Your conjecture may, in all likelihood, turn out to have more truth than not to it, I just don't care to hear anyone get personal in their bashing of the people involved. Both were decent human beings with families and friends left behind and I believe we can have a better discussion than calling them some of the names I've seen on similar threads.

Discuss - yes. Bash - no. There IS a difference... it's called RESPECT.

Nu... I apologize. Once again I have inserted my foot in my oral cavity and interrupted what is supposed to be pure entertainment with logic and reason. I will try, once again, to amend my ways.

 

[Dumbledore]

Discuss - yes. Bash - no. There IS a difference... it's called RESPECT.

Fair 'nuf. I don't disagree.

 

[DigMyKungFuGrip]

I knew it was just a matter of time, but this really mkes me sick. I knew both of those men, and they were top notch. I refuse to listen to any criticism regarding the events of 14 october 2004. They were my friends, they were good pilots, and good people. Period. Thats how they should be remembered. Not from whatever the media, or the guy sitting next to you might say about what they "should have done." It's disrespectful, and shows poor taste. Jesse and Pete were good men, and they were our comrades. Thats how I remember them, and thats how I ask you all to keep in mind whether you knew them or not.... rest in peace fellas....

 

[xjcaptain]

I don't think anybody is saying that they were not good people. It seems from the reports from the NTSB and the audio that we've heard that they made some mistakes. We all have. As we see in many accidents it was probably a chain of errors, remove any of the link from the chain and no accident occurs. However their mistakes on that day prooved to be fatal. Nothing we can do or say will change that. Aviation has always been very unforgiving of errors and that will probably never change. I think all we can do is wait for the final conclusion and hopefully we can take something away from their accident that will prevent something similiar from happening again.

 

[Mel Sharples]

I don't think anybody is saying that they were not good people. It seems from the reports from the NTSB and the audio that we've heard that they made some mistakes. We all have. As we see in many accidents it was probably a chain of errors, remove any of the link from the chain and no accident occurs. However their mistakes on that day prooved to be fatal. Nothing we can do or say will change that. Aviation has always been very unforgiving of errors and that will probably never change. I think all we can do is wait for the final conclusion and hopefully we can take something away from their accident that will prevent something similiar from happening again.

Well said.

Thats how they should be remembered. Not from whatever the media, or the guy sitting next to you might say about what they "should have done." It's disrespectful, and shows poor taste. Jesse and Pete were good men, and they were our comrades. Thats how I remember them, and thats how I ask you all to keep in mind whether you knew them or not.... .

I understand that they were your friends and you are hurt. For that I am truly sorry. But re-read the posts.... no one is bashing their memories. We are discussing what happened and how it might be prevented in the future.

To not discuss it, or rather not learn from it, would be the greatest tragedy of all. Hopefully their lives were not lost in vain. Perhaps they will end up saving one of us one day, because we learned from what happened to them.

Discussing this in a civilized manner does not equal disrespect for the deceased.

Again, I am sorry for your loss.

 

[DigMyKungFuGrip]

You are absolutely right.. I didnt mean to make it sound like I was accusing anyone. I guess I'm just so used to the moday morning qb-ing and the bs media stuff that I got a little too defensive of my friends. I think that Jesse and Pete would want us to learn from what happened and keep ourselves safe. Sorry for getting the wrong idea across.

 

[vmc-hound]

Boy does that scenario sound familiar! I had the same experience a few years ago, but we only made it to 370. We were "hanging on the prop" so to speak and the Captain didn't want to hear anything about what the book said.

Thinking about how stupid it was still scares me.

Hey for some us young guys out there...How would the experienced pilots handle this situation? I mean I have not sat through an Airline CRM class so excuse my ignorance but I really would like to know how to handle questionable alitudes etc by a captain? I mean I do understand he/she is final authority but how do you handle the politics etc of this very touchy situation?

 

[DigMyKungFuGrip]

Hey for some us young guys out there...How would the experienced pilots handle this situation? I mean I have not sat through an Airline CRM class so excuse my ignorance but I really would like to know how to handle questionable alitudes etc by a captain? I mean I do understand he/she is final authority but how do you handle the politics etc of this very touchy situation?

It's hard to sit in the right seat next to a guy who has 3 times your tt and experience and say "uh sir.. uh.. that makes me uncomfortable..." But you do more harm by NOT speaking up... respectfully of course. You can always discuss it on the ground at the gate, but in the moment, if you see something you dont like or think may be an issue, speak up. If it turns out to be something small, no biggie, but if it turns out to be a real safety issue, then you definitely did the right thing. It's not an easy thing to get ones mind across... I still have trouble with it sometimes, but I know that when I go to the left seat, I would want my FO to speak his mind if he sees something I dont, or doesnt understand something. We all have to be on the same page up there so we don't get into trouble... just my two cents.. hope it helped..

 

[Ty Webb]

What a bunch of frigging morons.

Let's see, on my last four-day pairing, I am sure I was at FL410 several times. I am sure that, after shutting down the engines at the gate and the Parking Check was run, I probably said something like "Well, we cheated death again" or something similar. Thank god nothing happened on the next leg where one of you douchebags could sit here and say that I had no business at 410 (I did) or that my comment indicated a disregard for safety (it doesn't).

You guys simply don't have enough information to be second-guessing what happened on this flight, and you continue to sound like a bunch of monkeys with a football as you continue to yammer on about the subject despite not having much on the way of factual information.

Give it a rest, wait for the NTSB findings, and then learn what you can- form accurate information, not some newspaper article, you pathetic piles of puke.

Sheesh.

 

[vectors2final]

I guess you've got all the answers huh?

 

[Ty Webb]

Nope, and neither do you. That is why the appropriate thing to do is to sit back, wait for more info,and keep your big yapper shut until then. Is that really so hard to do?

 

[vectors2final]

Of course not. I guess its your tone that I find offensive....

and "Big Yapper?"... really, dude?