Flg 3701 Audio Tape

[Lear70]

If the high-altitude cruise chart data showed they could expect to cruise at FL410 and maintain a 1.3 or 1.4G margin at the prevailing temperature, then there was no reason not to go up there, and you clowns that are Monday-morning quarterbacking them are a sorry bunch of idiots.

Thank God for the voice of reason. NO ONE ON THIS BOARD WAS THERE. Why are we even hashing this out before the NTSB Final Report is out?

Someone asked on the first page what data PCL uses for altitude determination - it's in our FCOM Volume 2 which every pilot has in their kit bag. FL 41,0 is obtainable under a relatively wide envelope of weights and temperatures and I've been up there several times in this aircraft, and used to cruise there DAILY in other aircraft.

NONE of you are NTSB accident investigators on the scene,,, NEITHER AM I. Give it a rest.

 

[NuGuy]

Thank God for the voice of reason. NO ONE ON THIS BOARD WAS THERE. Why are we even hashing this out before the NTSB Final Report is out?

Someone asked on the first page what data PCL uses for altitude determination - it's in our FCOM Volume 2 which every pilot has in their kit bag. FL 41,0 is obtainable under a relatively wide envelope of weights and temperatures and I've been up there several times in this aircraft, and used to cruise there DAILY in other aircraft.

NONE of you are NTSB accident investigators on the scene,,, NEITHER AM I. Give it a rest.

Lear,

Give it a rest... we simply cannot have people comming into the forum injecting reason and common sense...DON'T let it happen again...

Nu

 

[Dumbledore]

If the high-altitude cruise chart data showed they could expect to cruise at FL410 and maintain a 1.3 or 1.4G margin at the prevailing temperature, then there was no reason not to go up there, and you clowns that are Monday-morning quarterbacking them are a sorry bunch of idiots.

Sorry dude but that won't fly. It won't fly for the same reason that, as EVERYONE here who has ever ACTUALLY flown an airliner knows, there are times when you just can't have the faith in the airport analysis that it's supposed to inspire - your airplane is just too whooped and the engines are just too tired. Sometimes the airplane you have in your possession just won't do what it would have done the day it rolled out green from the factory.

I don't care what the book says about what my airplane will do. If it doesn't seem like it's gonna do it I abandon the try. It's just not worth a jet upset incident (or worse as these guys demonstrated).

Thank God for the voice of reason. NO ONE ON THIS BOARD WAS THERE. Why are we even hashing this out before the NTSB Final Report is out?

Because there is plenty that can be learned from the conjecture that is most likely not that far from the mark here while we wait for the vaunted NTSB to tell us all what we already know. The plane went too high for the weight and temperature that night and it stalled - repeatedly - before things got really out of hand. After that the crew did not respond appropriately to the double engine failure that they wound up with as a result. That much is not open to speculation - it's in the preliminary NTSB updates. Go read them if you don't believe me. They were supposed to get the plane above 300 KIAS to attempt an airstart and they never got there.

Someone asked on the first page what data PCL uses for altitude determination - it's in our FCOM Volume 2 which every pilot has in their kit bag. FL 41,0 is obtainable under a relatively wide envelope of weights and temperatures and I've been up there several times in this aircraft, and used to cruise there DAILY in other aircraft.

At least you're smart enough to avoid saying you cruise there daily in the CRJ. In fact, I note with interest that you specifically say you've ventured up to FL 410 "several times". Hmm. I'm thinkin' there must be a reason for that and it isn't because it gets there like a Gulfstream or a Lear.

 

[Lear70]

At least you're smart enough to avoid saying you cruise there daily in the CRJ. In fact, I note with interest that you specifically say you've ventured up to FL 410 "several times". Hmm. I'm thinkin' there must be a reason for that and it isn't because it gets there like a Gulfstream or a Lear.

The few times we "ventured" that high was, quite simply, because I was flying with first officers who had never flown jets before, much less been into the higher altitudes, and I believed it good instruction for them to feel firsthand what the aircraft handled like at that altitude and have a nice conversation about high altitude aerodynamics because, quite frankly, our training does NOT cover it. (And yes, all three times the aircraft was empty - two aircraft deliveries and one MX reposition similar to what these guys were doing).

Your conjecture may, in all likelihood, turn out to have more truth than not to it, I just don't care to hear anyone get personal in their bashing of the people involved. Both were decent human beings with families and friends left behind and I believe we can have a better discussion than calling them some of the names I've seen on similar threads.

Discuss - yes. Bash - no. There IS a difference... it's called RESPECT.

Nu... I apologize. Once again I have inserted my foot in my oral cavity and interrupted what is supposed to be pure entertainment with logic and reason. I will try, once again, to amend my ways.

 

[Dumbledore]

Discuss - yes. Bash - no. There IS a difference... it's called RESPECT.

Fair 'nuf. I don't disagree.

 

[DigMyKungFuGrip]

I knew it was just a matter of time, but this really mkes me sick. I knew both of those men, and they were top notch. I refuse to listen to any criticism regarding the events of 14 october 2004. They were my friends, they were good pilots, and good people. Period. Thats how they should be remembered. Not from whatever the media, or the guy sitting next to you might say about what they "should have done." It's disrespectful, and shows poor taste. Jesse and Pete were good men, and they were our comrades. Thats how I remember them, and thats how I ask you all to keep in mind whether you knew them or not.... rest in peace fellas....

 

[xjcaptain]

I don't think anybody is saying that they were not good people. It seems from the reports from the NTSB and the audio that we've heard that they made some mistakes. We all have. As we see in many accidents it was probably a chain of errors, remove any of the link from the chain and no accident occurs. However their mistakes on that day prooved to be fatal. Nothing we can do or say will change that. Aviation has always been very unforgiving of errors and that will probably never change. I think all we can do is wait for the final conclusion and hopefully we can take something away from their accident that will prevent something similiar from happening again.

 

[Mel Sharples]

I don't think anybody is saying that they were not good people. It seems from the reports from the NTSB and the audio that we've heard that they made some mistakes. We all have. As we see in many accidents it was probably a chain of errors, remove any of the link from the chain and no accident occurs. However their mistakes on that day prooved to be fatal. Nothing we can do or say will change that. Aviation has always been very unforgiving of errors and that will probably never change. I think all we can do is wait for the final conclusion and hopefully we can take something away from their accident that will prevent something similiar from happening again.

Well said.

Thats how they should be remembered. Not from whatever the media, or the guy sitting next to you might say about what they "should have done." It's disrespectful, and shows poor taste. Jesse and Pete were good men, and they were our comrades. Thats how I remember them, and thats how I ask you all to keep in mind whether you knew them or not.... .

I understand that they were your friends and you are hurt. For that I am truly sorry. But re-read the posts.... no one is bashing their memories. We are discussing what happened and how it might be prevented in the future.

To not discuss it, or rather not learn from it, would be the greatest tragedy of all. Hopefully their lives were not lost in vain. Perhaps they will end up saving one of us one day, because we learned from what happened to them.

Discussing this in a civilized manner does not equal disrespect for the deceased.

Again, I am sorry for your loss.

 

[DigMyKungFuGrip]

You are absolutely right.. I didnt mean to make it sound like I was accusing anyone. I guess I'm just so used to the moday morning qb-ing and the bs media stuff that I got a little too defensive of my friends. I think that Jesse and Pete would want us to learn from what happened and keep ourselves safe. Sorry for getting the wrong idea across.

 

[vmc-hound]

Boy does that scenario sound familiar! I had the same experience a few years ago, but we only made it to 370. We were "hanging on the prop" so to speak and the Captain didn't want to hear anything about what the book said.

Thinking about how stupid it was still scares me.

Hey for some us young guys out there...How would the experienced pilots handle this situation? I mean I have not sat through an Airline CRM class so excuse my ignorance but I really would like to know how to handle questionable alitudes etc by a captain? I mean I do understand he/she is final authority but how do you handle the politics etc of this very touchy situation?

 

[DigMyKungFuGrip]

Hey for some us young guys out there...How would the experienced pilots handle this situation? I mean I have not sat through an Airline CRM class so excuse my ignorance but I really would like to know how to handle questionable alitudes etc by a captain? I mean I do understand he/she is final authority but how do you handle the politics etc of this very touchy situation?

It's hard to sit in the right seat next to a guy who has 3 times your tt and experience and say "uh sir.. uh.. that makes me uncomfortable..." But you do more harm by NOT speaking up... respectfully of course. You can always discuss it on the ground at the gate, but in the moment, if you see something you dont like or think may be an issue, speak up. If it turns out to be something small, no biggie, but if it turns out to be a real safety issue, then you definitely did the right thing. It's not an easy thing to get ones mind across... I still have trouble with it sometimes, but I know that when I go to the left seat, I would want my FO to speak his mind if he sees something I dont, or doesnt understand something. We all have to be on the same page up there so we don't get into trouble... just my two cents.. hope it helped..

 

[Ty Webb]

What a bunch of frigging morons.

Let's see, on my last four-day pairing, I am sure I was at FL410 several times. I am sure that, after shutting down the engines at the gate and the Parking Check was run, I probably said something like "Well, we cheated death again" or something similar. Thank god nothing happened on the next leg where one of you douchebags could sit here and say that I had no business at 410 (I did) or that my comment indicated a disregard for safety (it doesn't).

You guys simply don't have enough information to be second-guessing what happened on this flight, and you continue to sound like a bunch of monkeys with a football as you continue to yammer on about the subject despite not having much on the way of factual information.

Give it a rest, wait for the NTSB findings, and then learn what you can- form accurate information, not some newspaper article, you pathetic piles of puke.

Sheesh.

 

[vectors2final]

I guess you've got all the answers huh?

 

[Ty Webb]

Nope, and neither do you. That is why the appropriate thing to do is to sit back, wait for more info,and keep your big yapper shut until then. Is that really so hard to do?

 

[vectors2final]

Of course not. I guess its your tone that I find offensive....

and "Big Yapper?"... really, dude?