flexjet

[flydog]

Hey JPilot

Let me know when the 200 RTA guys quit Flight Options. If I get on with them that means I should make Captain right out of basic indoc. I want to send them all a thank you card.

I dont mind flying 14 hr days especially when its only 16 days a month. How long do you think your duty days would be at an airline? What sort of day are you looking for? Maybe a 5 hr leg to Hawaii and a 3 day layover and back home for 7 days off? Do you want a chauffered limo to take you to an from the hotel sir?

Why dont you give 135 a try where most are lucky to get a few days off a month and are on call 24/7

 

[jpilot]

Well...

I knew my post would start the defense of Flight Options. For those that weren't former Travel Air, you have no idea what we "were" faced with. I did my share of charter flying (135). But, do you know the difference? There are rules to follow for duty times and rest with 135. No so at Flight Options. Maybe the Options pilots didn't do the flying we were doing, from what I understand, Travel Air airplanes are doing 70% of the flying there.

And, we won't even get into the lack of respect issue. I caused no problems whatsoever for the company, but the lack of respect was everywhere.

If this is your first jet job, good luck. But, I have flown both 135 and corporate, so this wasn't my first jet job. I know the difference and I'm not here to build time but to have a career.

NetJets is a first class operation that I am truly happy to be a part of. I haven't been happier since the days of Travel Air.

Good luck to you. If you haven't been at Travel Air, you wouldn't know the differences.

 

[Semore Butts]

What a great conversation!!!!

Vixin,

How long have you been an FO at Flex???? Keep the faith!

I have for far to long. I have had the "it's just a business move" jammed in my "tookas" so many times I have lost my faith.

You are right about organizing. I had a buddy that used to say, "just wait til this company gets organized", " then you'll see"!
He was there 8 years before they went out of business!

Don't worry if you have a change of heart and try for EJ! They will respect that, I'm sure.

Good luck brother FO.


Flexnomore is right about the lab experiment. If the union fails there will be worse experiments then there have ever been.

Flexnomore: Great to see your post! I have a class date! I was wondering how all the exflexers like it over there?
Lab experiment is about it, who knows what the F^$&^$ is gonna go on next?

Sometimes you have to bet on the fact you may not hit the Lotto, or you may not get run over by a car next week, and may have to plan for a long time career. I am all but backing "your horse". I am about to make my final decision.


Jpilot, When we gonna have another "hops and BArley product"? Soon I hope.


Sweptwingz,

Thanks for that bit of info about the former Flex guy. I have heard that as well. A couple of my Cpt friends are telling me I should stay, because the money will be so much better when I upgrade.

Money will come at EJ. I would rather have a very secure future as a new guy at SWA, then a high paid one at United that may get furloughed...... OOPS they are furloughed, bad example.

I'd rather be making OK bucks at EJA and have representation, then to be making OK bucks at Flex and wonder I someone will get mad and fire me out of seniority.
Oh hey I have to go, they are splitting up the sugar cookie here in the lobby of the comfort inn........


Take care all!!!!!!

 

[flexlrpilot357]

Gosh, ya'all are right. Flexjet should be designing its whole business model around pilot satisfaction, not profitability.
They should upgrade everybody after 1 year, whether or not we've sold the airplanes, pay everyone Challenger pay, and let everyone work 1 week per month. We should go to a Hilton-only hotel plan, and hire enough office staff to make sure every crewmember gets whatever meal they want every day.

That would be great for the month or two it lasts.

I'm sorry kids, this is business, this is not girl scout camp. If you feel like you're unloved or under appreciated, maybe that's something you should try to get from your girlfriend/boyfriend/mommy. You should be glad that Flexjet cares to send the very best: long term employment. You get that one way: responsible management.

Sometimes responsible management means you make tough decisions. You lay people off when you realize you're a little bloated instead of cook the books to show a profit, like Enron.
You find places to cut costs and gain efficiency. Most pilots can sleep just as well at the Country Inn & Suites as they can at the Hilton. I know I can.

Funny, the ones who complain about morale the most are the ones who make morale the worst. Anyone with the fortitude to stick it out at Flexjet will be glad they did. Anyone who doesn't want to, well, there's the door. Quit ruining it for the rest of us.

This is not a lab experiment gone awry. This is a company that's slowed down, taken a breather, and taken off again smarter and stronger. We're about to post our second profitable quarter in a row, We're the official fractional of the PGA, and it was announced today that there will be several upgrades this fall. If you want the real story at Flex, see my previous post in this thread.

 

[LR45JI]

flexlrpilot,

Your funny!!!

You should be glad that Flexjet cares to send the very best: long term employment.

What planet are you from? Why don't you tell that to the guys who were fired back in October!! I know what your rebuttal will be: They were bad apples!!! Who makes that determination? You? Dave? Tim? Bob? etc..... It's a joke!!!!

Do I think we [the pilots] should be in a Hilton and the likes when were on the road? Your dam n right I do!!! If I'm going out on the road, away from my family, my bed, etc... the very least the company can do it put me in a nice hotel so I can get some rest on a half-ass descent mattress. A room that doesn't have urine stains on the lav. and pubic hair in the bed!!!

If I’m expected to do 30-minute turns all day then I should have a meal when, where and what I desire, within reason!!! We don’t have the luxury of taking a 1 ½ lunch break to go play grab-ass. It's obvious that you work in the office and haven't been on the road much (at least no lately).

Your blatant ignorance is mind-numbing.

 

[flexlrpilot357]

LJ45JI,

All I can say is, if you were in charge, or if it was your money, you'd do the same thing. Either that or we'd all be worried about our jobs.

Let me ask you this: How do you handle your personal finances? Do you throw caution to the wind and buy whatever you want, go out to eat at nice restaurants every night? Do you rack up huge credit card bills? Do you dress like a GQ cover? Or do you budget yourself carefully, save money every month, put money in your 401(k), etc.

Why should a company behave any differently? Flexjet is not the Federal Government! Flexjet has to be responsible. It's a business, and has to be profitable.

If you're too immature to understand this, you're part of the "morale problem". Please leave.

btw, it's not 30-minute turns, and I'm usually overfed on the road.

 

[NJA Capt]

flexlrpilot357
Maybe you should put down the Montreal kool-aid at take a closer look.

You stated that Flex was "taking a breather." Why would you take a breather in the middle of the biggest boom time in fractional history. Since 1998, Flexjet has gained 59 aircraft, Flight Options has gained 100, and NJA has grown from 200 to 400 aircraft! Don't you think it's time to sell some airplanes over there?

Congrats on the PGA thing, I guess. Don't you think your other owners are going to be a little upset that the golfers are getting a "preferred" rate? Maybe if they weren't giving away the pilots money, you wouldn't be in the Comfort Inn.

If you have no desire to improve, they aren't motivated to improve it for you. Don't settle, you deserve more.

 

[FlexNoMore]

We've heard your voice too often!

flexrpilot357,

Funny how you always try to take the conversation to the same level regardless of the subject matter. Its not about LR45JI personal finance or anyone else’s finances, its about the basic failure of FLEX to maintain the trust of the pilot group through their words and actions. Over and over again the working people have paid the price for Princeton's failures.

Lack of planning, combined with there grossly overly optimistic projections has caused a great deal of trouble for a significant number of flight crew. I offer as proof the number of flight crew leaving and the ongoing union effort now taking place. Has FLEX cooked the books to turn a profit as much as they cooked the truth in getting folks to come to work for FLEX. The budget process at FLEX, its first priority is to ensure that the corporate folks maintain their bonuses and bennefits, if the masses don’t like it they can hit the road. Your words flexr357plt, not mine.

A slide in standard of living combined with the lack of understanding or caring about the long-term effect on employees, service, safety, morale will contribute to the company's inability to remain viable.

THE CURRENT RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN EMPLOYER AND EMPLOYEE DOES NOT HAPPEN IN A COMPANY THAT TAKES CARE OF BUSINESS AND ITS EMPLOYEES< FACT NOT FICTION.

It's not about a few malcontents, it's about doing the right thing! Try it sometimes flexrpilot357.

G2BG

 

[Semore Butts]

Same old stuff

The weekly message was the same old stuff, non commital, vague information, lacking commitment. I was hoping for some detailed information about our future, I got none.
Flexr357? Is that your seniority number? I had ask in the other post how long you had been at Flex? I never got an answer, just a basically lame attack indicating what a malcontent you think I am.
I remember someone telling my back in November about how we had weeded out a bunch of losers at the priceton. I told them that alot of those people had been there a long time. Her answer was, well I don't care, they had bad attitudes. I ask her how long she had been there? Her answer? Just about a year!
I suspect the same about you Flexr357.
I have good news for you 357! You are about to move up 1!
I will be resigning soon. I know you will be glad to see me go, though you don't know me from Adam, or what I'm all about. I'm sure with your low opinion of me, my saying that I will miss Flex will probably be meaningless.
I wish only the best to the people at Flex. I have had some great times there.
Good luck to you! Your attitude will sustain you. I hope you are right about the long term survival.
However, I'm looking for a career, not a position.
Flexnomore, Gump, Jpilot, I'm on the way!!!!!!!!!
Save me a seat!

 

[Muddauber]

Gosh, ya'all are right. Flexjet should be designing its whole business model around pilot satisfaction, not profitability...

I like your post, intelligent, non-emotional, wrought with common sense and loyal to the folks that pay you.

 

[flexlrpilot357]

Thanks, Muddauber.

The problem at Flexjet boils down to this: about 2 years ago we were in a mad hiring spree, forecasting huge growth. "2000 pilots!" they said. We hired some younger fellows who hadn't "payed dues" in the business as I'm sure you and I understand it. (Try riding out multiple bankruptcies and strikes with kids at home. Sorry, I don't feel bad for you. This will pass.)

Then, suprisingly enough, the business takes a cyclical dip, these guys aren't upgrading as fast as they thought, and pressure comes from the top to show a profit. The business goes through a truly mild reorganizational phase. While the young guys were busy feeling lied to and cheated, and their feelings and morale were being hurt, lots of us older guys were concerned about the health of the company, mostly because we realized that the health of the company is intrinsically tied to the duration of our paychecks. The FOs were only concerned about their upgrades. They really couldn't see much further than their... noses about it all.

We had people who had never (well, maybe once before) held a jet PIC position before screaming about their 8 month upgrade being flushed away. It would have been laughable if some of us didn't have to listen to it all the time.

Note: This is NOT true about all FOs!!! It's the only referring to the 5% who make 95% of the noise. My hat's off to the other 95% who are true professionals, and welcome to fly my family any day. (The highest compliment you can pay an aviator, I think)

Semore, I've been at Flex longer than you have. People have been squawking about unions since before I got here. That doesn't impress me one way or the other. Every pilot wants a union because they think they can run the business better than the business man. That's because we're control freaks by nature. The difference between you and me is I know it.

NJA Capt.: I saw the Berkshire Hathaway report. You lost money. You guys will turn it around, but I know for a fact that FlOps isn't in good financial shape. If you have any business knowledge you should be able to paint a picture of their shape based on publically available information. They're holding it together with string and bubble gum.

Flexnomore, there's nothing wrong with my workplace. It's safe, it's fun, and I'm fairly compensated. I don't need management people to give me hugs to make me feel loved. All I need is to feel like they're doing their jobs, keeping the company afloat until I retire or move on. And I do. Experience and intellect tells me so. The fact that you're on here claiming otherwise says more about you than I care to.

Semore, you say you're leaving. Do what you have to do if it isn't working out for you. That I can respect. Getting on the internet to air your grievances about your employer is beneath contempt. It's pretty chickens**t, to tell the truth. You perpetuate the bad feelings, and stand to do harm to your "pilot brothers".

 

[Semore Butts]

Telling the truth is chicken sH^%&???

Flex357,

You know what, we differ so much in opinion it's not even funny. But I respect your right to your opinion. You are straight forward, and stick to your convictions.
How do you know you have been at Flex longer then me? I'll be getting 3 weeks vacation here in a few months.
How do we go from an estimated 2000 pilots by 2004 to zip?
I do understand that pilots are control freaks,
I think it's a necessity.
But I know I have a bad attitude and am a bad apple according to you. I'm just to old to follow this management theory of "you just do what your told, I know whats best for you".
I certainly don't think it's the job of a union to run the business. That's managements job. The union is to represent the employees as a whole. Please don't tell me that unions have run any companies out of business. Bad management runs companies out of business.
I agree that we were fairly compensated the first year. But the pay scale was just slapped down with the thought that people were upgrading within about a year.
Where would you have me aire my grievences? On the bluebelly?
There are two sides to every story. I got on at the beginning of this string and told someone asking questions what I felt were truthfull answers.
So I guess you saying that it's OK for you to get on the internet and tell me what a bunch of whining young guys your fellow pilots are. So anybody with a different opinion then yours is a whining loser? It's OK for you to give the positive side about Flex, but it's not OK for someone to present what is wrong or could improve?
Then you start making personal attacks on me being a chicken Sh*&.
Well there it is I guess!
Muddauber, good luck on your contract in 2004.

 

[flexlrpilot357]

Relax, Semore, I don't even know you, so I'm not making a personal attack. I'm speaking very generally.

Let me ask you this: When you get on here and start presenting your "side", what service are you providing. Who are you helping? Or are you just blowing off steam?

Maybe if the (not necessarily your) disatisfied opinions were presented as such, and not as "truths", I wouldn't have a problem with it. You are entitled to your opinion, of course. It's what you do with that opinion that is important. Do you act constructively, talk to management about your concerns? Do you find a job that's a little bit more what you want? Do you get on the internet and trash the place, dragging it through the mud, kicking your fellow crewmembers in the cojones?

Semore, re-read my posts. I didn't give the "positive" side about Flex. I attempted to provide the whole truth. I gave details about the schedule, details about pay, details about hotels, about bidding. I didn't say, "it sucks, they're screwing me, it's not fair, they're all Hitler youth!"

I reported, you gave a bitter editorial.

 

[Semore Butts]

When your right your right.

Thanks Flexlr357,

I didn't really look at it like that. It does appear bitter.

The service I was providing was an opinion of alot of "line dog FO's" and Cpt's, things have gone downhill quite a bit as far as quality of living on the road, and work loads.

But I guess that about says it. I've lost all faith.

I've told what I thought to be the truth, about a company that has changed alot in the past 2+ years.

You are correct again, these are my opinions, and I believe them to be truths.

I went back through my posts and didn't see anywhere where I said It's not fair, they are Hitler Youth, and I don't recall saying they were screwing us. I believe as you that facts are facts.

Your right again, I guess I'm just blowing off steam because I'm so frustrated by the vague information we get down from most high.

I never meant anything but constructive criticism.

I don't think Flex's success or failure will be decided out on the line, or at the Princeton. Flex's fate will be decided in another country.

If I thought as you do that Flex was absolutely going to be around for the long haul, I would stay.

We all have choices to make, I have chosen to be bitter and frustrated. Thanks to talking (or whatever you want to call it) to you, I have realized that I have a choice wether to look at the bad and be bitter, or look at the good, and say it will get even better.


Here's to Ya,

 

[Frac Daddy]

flexlrpilot357,


"I know for a fact that FlOps isn't in good financial shape." Tell me, how exactly do you know the financial shape of a privately held company?

 

[Pilot's Wife]

I have read with much interest the posts on this thread. It's about time some people showed an interest in Flexjet. I especially am interested in the posts from former Flex employees and those about to be ex-Flex employees.

Flexjet has been very good to my family. We have little negative to say about this place. But I can definately understand some of the feelings, especially those from 2-3 year FO's, that are expressed here. Some of them I find much more valid than others. Anyone who gets on here and talks about the disappointment at not making captain (ie: captain pay) has every right to be upset. I know how hard it was for us to come up with the cash every rotation when we were at FO pay. Financially it can be very straining especially living in any of the 3 gateways - all of which are expensive. I don't know how some of them have done it for 3 years. I truly empathize with you. When you plan to make in the 50's in about a year and 3 years later are still in the 30's it can be very disheartening.

Flex also had several months of turmoil/chaos with firings, bad schedules because of PBS and hotel problems. But those problems seem to be behind Flexjet.

PBS started out rough but the company seems to be making an honest effort to fix those issues. I know we have seen in the last couple of months a much better award each time - and it is not because my husband is senior. Changes always cause problems at first. Its how you handle them that matters. Flex is hiring now and you all know that the new aircraft projections in the next year are very good and we are making a profit. I haven't heard any other fractional declaring that. The hotels were a big problem at first because Flex hadn't set up their exclusions, but they are honestly working that out. You report a bad hotel and its taken off the list. It took a few bad months to work that out. And no, not everyone thinks they need to stay at Hiltons. The price of the hotel room is no guarantee of its cleanliness. I think Dateline/20/20 - one of those type of shows - did a show on that subject and expensive hotels had the same cleanliness/safety issues as the Comfort Inns.

The future looks bright at Flexjet, in my opinion. No it is not perfect. I think EJA is probably a great place to work also. We have friends that work there and they like it very much. But we know people that like Flexjet also. It all is about what you want. I hope you all got what you wanted! We have.

 

[Semore Butts]

Great to hear from you!

Pilot Wife,


It's always refreshing to hear from you. You always have a positive yet subjective view.

I am leaving Flex soon.
As Flexlr357 said I have become bitter.
That ain't no way to run a railroad. It's not fair to flex, it's not fair to me.
I am heading for EJ to join alot of other former flex.
I decided this, in the short run, I will be ahead with Flex, In the medium run, I will be even, in the long run, I will be ahead.
It's not about money, it's about having someone as supportive as you at home standing by my side.
EJ offers that hands down. More time at home.

Take care, great to hear from you.

 

[flexlrpilot357]

Pilot's Wife,

I think you're very fair in your assessment of Flexjet.

It's a good company, not a perfect company. It's also a very evolving company, not a poorly run company. It's a profitable company, not a break-the-pilot's-back company.

It's truly unfortunate that FOs had tough breaks over the past few years. I feel for them, I remember making $18K and then $30K, trying to live. That's not anyone's fault, that's just business.

I understand people's disappointment. I'd probably feel the same way if the shoe was on the other foot. The anger and negativity I've seen, I hope I wouldn't display.

Flexjet is getting better and better. PBS is getting better because pilots understand it better and changes are being made. Also, demand is down this part of the year I bet.

Firings can and do happen anywhere.

NJA Captain, re: PGA. Ever read an owner contract? They're all different. That's business, baby.

Semore, I honestly hope you get what you want.

 

[LXJ31]

Staying with Flexjet

I've been at Flexjet going on two years and while it certainly hasn't been like I'd pictured it, I do enjoy my job and look forward to hopefully a long career here. Most of my tenure has been marked with constant changes and uncertainty. However, my experience is that its begun to smooth out and I feel confident about the future. ExecJet sounds like a great place to work too, I wish the EJ and other frac crews all the best. But I plan on sticking with Flexjet; I like the people I work with (most of 'em), its safe and professional in operations and the training department, I like the aircraft I fly, I get paid decently and I like the direction management is headed. Thats not to say that things don't happen or decisions aren't made that don't give me heartburn, but such is life. (A triple negative, my english prof would have been proud.) I am well aware that aviation business and the economy as a whole have their various cycles which is the main reason I haven't bailed out over the slow upgrades or other negative aspects. Hopefully, we will continue to strive for improvement in all facets of our business and quality of life.

Do whats right for you and yours fearlessly.

 

[ukcats]

Hey Flexlr357. Over here at NJA, we do stay at Hiltons exclusively (unless absolutely not available), we do choose the meal we want, and we are growing at a phenominal rate. And you know what? We are all happy (for the most part). I am another one of those "malcontents" (is that latin for "one who doesn't have his head up and locked"?) that left Flex because it wasn't a good place to work. Would have been working on 3 year FO pay if I hadn't left. Made captain here in less than a year (could have been quicker. I chose to wait. Choice is good). Every aspect of the job is better.

My question is why do you so aggressively defend Flex, when you don't know how bad it is compared the other fracs? There are several people who do know what it is like compared to other fracs, there posts are a lot more credible than yours. Your 3rd grade name calling tactics don't help Flexjet's already tarnished image in the aviation community. Don't forget that there are a lot of folks reading this, who are considering the fractionals as a career option.