Flexjet Union Drive on the move

[ITFL]

It was apparent to even the casual observer that Flight Options management was trying to give their pilots a comparability raise in late January 2006, but this effort was stopped dead by the pilots organizing under the tutelege and encouragement of the Teamsters.

This is from section 152 of the RLA:

Fourth.
Employees shall have the right to organize and bargain collectively through representatives of their own choosing. The majority of any craft or class of employees shall have the right to determine who shall be the representative of the craft or class for the purposes of this chapter. No carrier, its officers, or agents shall deny or in any way question the right of its employees to join, organize, or assist in organizing the labor organization of their choice, and it shall be unlawful for any carrier to interfere in any way with the organization of its employees, or to use the funds of the carrier in maintaining or assisting or contributing to any labor organizabion, labor representative, or other agency of collective bargaining, or in performing any work therefor, or to influence or coerce employees in an effort to induce them to join or remain or not to join or remain members of any labor organization...


And the NMB has ruled that this prohibition with regard to interference, financially or otherwise begins when company management could reasonably have been expected to know that a union drive was underway. I think Gerry pointed that out.



Fact is FLOPS management knew about the Union drive at least 2 years prior to the vote. For them to come out two months prior to the vote and talk about, let alone offer a raise represented interference, and they knew it. But they wanted to have something to blame on the union. So there is no speculation about this issue THEY NEVER COULD LEGALLY IMPLAMENT A PAY RAISE AND THEY KNEW IT. It's actually quite brilliant - I'd expect nothing less from F&H - and some of our guys fell for it, as apparently you have.



Look man I understand that in your world unions are bad and I would concede that they are also unnecessary, what with only 8 airplanes and all. But why would you suffer pilots who work for a fractional, under a vastly different set of circumstances, that you really can't understand unless you've been there, their due recourse? You seem to enjoy rubbing our noses in your big pay check and wonderful working conditions. I have to wonder why?



Don't tell me it's because you are just trying to save Flex from what has happened at FLOPS, because you clearly don't understand what it's like to work for a big fractional provider, and without that first hand experience you are in no position to advise anyone at a fractional.



The Flex guys will vote in the 1108, it's only a matter of time and then they will come the realize the benefits of haveing a union behind them when they go to work. And yea it will probably get a little ugly at first, but one day they will have a contract and they will sleep easy with the knowledge they fought for something of value and won. Rather than running away to some small flight department where they are nothing more than some CEO's well paid limo driver and yes boy.


Say it with me now "Ohh yess sirr masser".

 

[tailhook]

hmmmm

Wow... This has been entertayning! GEX? If I had your job and your portfolyo I would be in the Bahomas sipping a cold one and taking in the sights to include a few bikinys... You arent a fractional Pilot, you have NO need for a union, why do you waste your time here? (notice all the errors in spelling, cant wait to see what that drums up)

For you FLEX guys, rest assured Management WILL taketh and you best be prepared to fight. I was never a big union guy until FLOPS showed me exactly how bad life was going to be. GEX step down to the "Middle Class" ranks and then you can post your thoughts about a FRACTIONAL airline. (this is not a private flight department thread).

Fly safe

 

[CL300Pilot]

Cosmo,

This is not an attempt to pick a fight with you but just to enlighten you. The stock we can buy is Bombardier stock. Yes, in a round about way, it could be considered flexjet, since it could be an investment in Flexjet, but it is Bombardier Corporate Stock. Also, Bombardier announced that due to the reduction in regional aircraft sales, they are laying off 1300 in both Montreal and Belfast.

Fly safe.

CL300

 

[netjetwife]

Wow... This has been entertayning! GEX? If I had your job and your portfolyo I would be in the Bahomas sipping a cold one and taking in the sights to include a few bikinys... You arent a fractional Pilot, you have NO need for a union, why do you waste your time here? (notice all the errors in spelling, cant wait to see what that drums up)....

I must admit that you hooked me with that one.... There I was, shaking my head and rolling my eyes....

And then agreeing with your excellent point that one who has no need for a union and isn't affected by fractional issues isn't likely to fully understand the reason frac pilots would wish for representation. That said, it isn't unreasonable to expect other pilots to encourage those among them who are trying to stand up for themselves and the profession. When that doesn't happen the motives for posting here are rightfully questioned.

 

[bailey3083]

Everyone stop and hang on! I ran out of beer and need to go get some more so no more posting until I get back!

 

[walshsfly]

Everyone stop and hang on! I ran out of beer and need to go get some more so no more posting until I get back![/quote]

That's the smartest thing I have ever read on these boards.

 

[netjetwife]

You must not read much...

 

[Publishers]

No he reads really well but values his beer as a priority over some of what is said here. Sounds like a positive perspective to me. The issue with a union contract is not fairness but majority. What the majority will approve is what is approved. This is simply entrusting your job conditions to others for negotiation and agreeing to work for whatever was ratified.
Perhaps you can get the Air Force to unionize,,,,, yeah that will work. "No I cannot go do that bombing mission today,,, I will run out of duty time and the catering is late. ?"

 

[gunfyter]

So we should entrust our job conditions to managements instead of our fellow line pilots?

 

[netjetwife]

The pilots have equal opportunity to become involved in their union and to help form the contract goals. They can participate in debates and provide direct feedback to the leadership. The motivated pilots are invited to run for elected office. Like many things in life, you get out of it what you put into it. I'm with Gunfyter. Far better to trust your future to your fellow pilots who share your career priorities. The NJ pilots' current CBA offers much more fairness than the last one did. The failed TA was voted down because it didn't. Clearly, majority votes and fairness were running hand-in-hand. Flt Ops pilots have also decided that being allowed to negotiate their wages and vote on their contract is the fair thing to do. Go Options! NJW

 

[SuperKooter]

Don't endanger your jobs with a union. Teamsters is almost worse than alpa.

 

[Hawker dude]

No he reads really well but values his beer as a priority over some of what is said here. Sounds like a positive perspective to me.

The issue with a union contract is not fairness but majority. What the majority will approve is what is approved. This is simply entrusting your job conditions to others for negotiation and agreeing to work for whatever was ratified.

wow, this sounds like how the government works. get elected by the majority, and live by what the majority decides.


Perhaps you can get the Air Force to unionize,,,,, yeah that will work. "No I cannot go do that bombing mission today,,, I will run out of duty time and the catering is late. ?"

comparing the military to a real airline job. that makes no sense. did you actually read the contract when you signed up for the military? you are government property. catering in the military. right.

what a tool

 

[EdAtTheAirport]

Is anyone aware of the PHI strike? I haven't seen it discussed here. What do y'all think?

 

[GEXDriver]

Yes I'm well aware I'm the expense in the equation. Do realize Ten Man it is not a problem it is business.

Ten Man?

 

[Diesel]

Don't endanger your jobs with a union. Teamsters is almost worse than alpa.

SuperCooter- Yeah I'll remember that with my 60 percent payraise among other things that Local 1108 has gotten me while ALPA keeps giving back and giving back.....

Haaaaa

 

[CL300Pilot]

Is anyone aware of the PHI strike? I haven't seen it discussed here. What do y'all think?

Ed,

Go to www.justhelicopters.com and you can read all that you would want to know. It is being discussed out the wazuu there.

 

[walshsfly]

You must not read much...

NOT FROM YOU

If you ever have something worth saying for your precious union then stand up and tell us who you are.

STOP HIDING

Who can trust anyone that hides from public view.

And I feel sorry for the guy that gave my address out to some ********************ty union, I hope I run into him/her/it someday with my car.

 

[walshsfly]

Don't endanger your jobs with a union. Teamsters is almost worse than alpa.

What do you mean almost?
They are!

 

[netjetwife]

I post on the NJ board in my own name, and I also exchange PMs here (in my name) with like-minded people. Many of the pilots know my given name, but I also like being Netjetwife. It's another side of my personality, if you will.

Not everyone is trustworthy, I agree. Unfortunately, board names are a necessity there days considering the threats one can encounter; for example, being run over with a car. Frankly, I'm surprised you don't understand that, Mr. Walshfly. That is your last name, right?

 

[cosmotheassman]

NOT FROM YOU

STOP HIDING

Who can trust anyone that hides from public view.

And I feel sorry for the guy that gave my address out to some ********************ty union, I hope I run into him/her/it someday with my car.

Look who's hiding... By your theory, we shouldn't trust you; therfore, your opinion means nothing.

 

[walshsfly]

Look who's hiding... By your theory, we shouldn't trust you; therfore, your opinion means nothing.

But I am not hiding. This is my last name.

 

[FLYLOW22]

But I am not hiding. This is my last name.

And your first name is Captain, right?

 

[ArtVandalay]

He's actually telling the truth if he was hired JAN '06

 

[kab1027]

Has anyone noticed how many union naysayers there are with a CL300 type rating? This is the biggest hurdle we have to getting the union in. New hires are happy because of those 2-3 day layovers in Europe or Hawaii, and the Capt's have the "I've got mine, pull up the rope" mentality. For the new hires, wait until you upgrade to the Lear fleet and actually have to work, get the 2am wake up several days in a row, and then get home at 2345 on your last day. It'll change your perspective. And for you Challenger Capt's, remember where you came from. For those of you that came from a Regional...don't compare the Teamsters to ALPA. The problem with ALPA is they always worked for 2% of 6 figures much harder than they did for 2% of 20K. We won't be facing that problem.
Talked to a CAB member the other day and was told that unless they get closure to some items that have been on the table for the last 2-3 years, the CAB will be disolved, gone, no more. I think even the CAB members have realized it is a form of Union busting in itself. It appears that the pilots have a voice, and it appears that management is listening, but nothing is ever accomplished.

Send the cards in!!!

 

[bailey3083]

Has anyone noticed how many union naysayers there are with a CL300 type rating? This is the biggest hurdle we have to getting the union in. New hires are happy because of those 2-3 day layovers in Europe or Hawaii, and the Capt's have the "I've got mine, pull up the rope" mentality. For the new hires, wait until you upgrade to the Lear fleet and actually have to work, get the 2am wake up several days in a row, and then get home at 2345 on your last day. It'll change your perspective. And for you Challenger Capt's, remember where you came from. For those of you that came from a Regional...don't compare the Teamsters to ALPA. The problem with ALPA is they always worked for 2% of 6 figures much harder than they did for 2% of 20K. We won't be facing that problem.
Talked to a CAB member the other day and was told that unless they get closure to some items that have been on the table for the last 2-3 years, the CAB will be disolved, gone, no more. I think even the CAB members have realized it is a form of Union busting in itself. It appears that the pilots have a voice, and it appears that management is listening, but nothing is ever accomplished.

Send the cards in!!!

I am a new hire and in the Lear fleet. I do get those 0dark30 wake up calls, long legs, long days and get home at 2355 sometimes but I say no union with all the other naysayers out there. If we join the Teamsters it will be just like the Majors against the Regionals all over again. NetJets having 2500+ pilots and Flex with only 400 pilots, the Teamsters will be more interested in helping where their main source of income comes from not a smallgroup like us. Then what happens is small companies like us get the sh*t end of the stick when it comes to contracts while NetJets get whatever they want. So Union is bad for Flex!

BURN YOUR CARDS!

Bailey
PS This is my real name not hiding like everyone else.

 

[netjetwife]

So, Bailey, are you advising that it's better not to even try because there's the possibility that your contract might not be as good as the NJ pilots got? Isn't some written protection better than none at all? Aren't improvements worth fighting for? Don't you believe that professional pilots deserve more compensation than less skilled workers who are home every night and don't take responsibility for lives and equipment worth millions? Do you not believe in the American right to vote?

 

[walshsfly]

Has anyone noticed how many union naysayers there are with a CL300 type rating? This is the biggest hurdle we have to getting the union in. New hires are happy because of those 2-3 day layovers in Europe or Hawaii, and the Capt's have the "I've got mine, pull up the rope" mentality. For the new hires, wait until you upgrade to the Lear fleet and actually have to work, get the 2am wake up several days in a row, and then get home at 2345 on your last day. It'll change your perspective. And for you Challenger Capt's, remember where you came from. For those of you that came from a Regional...don't compare the Teamsters to ALPA. The problem with ALPA is they always worked for 2% of 6 figures much harder than they did for 2% of 20K. We won't be facing that problem.
Talked to a CAB member the other day and was told that unless they get closure to some items that have been on the table for the last 2-3 years, the CAB will be disolved, gone, no more. I think even the CAB members have realized it is a form of Union busting in itself. It appears that the pilots have a voice, and it appears that management is listening, but nothing is ever accomplished.

Send the cards in!!!

Yes I am in the 300 and yes I was hired in Jan 06 and yes I am from the airlines, and yes I am against a union.

I get the 3am wakeup calls I get the long last day and I haven't yet gotten a 2-3 day layover anywhere, haven't even crosed the pond yet. I fly on adverage 70 hours amonth here, yeah I have had one month were I didn't fly that much (around 40 hours) but I have also had months were I flew around 80 hours.

So don't tell me your getting the short end because your in the Lear, at least you don't get 6 plus hour legs followed by another 3 hour leg. Now I am not complaing but why are you? I have friends in the Lear and they don't normally fly as much as I do, or atleast thats what they tell me.

Walsh

 

[2dotslow]

I've been down the Hersey highway with both the Teamsters and ALPA, and it ain't worth it. :dots

 

[netjetwife]

I'm sorry that things didn't work out for you, but it has for the pilots of 1108. Remember, fairness dictates that every group be judged on its own merits. Additionally, I strongly encourage every member to actively participate if they want good results. Any organization is a direct reflection of its membership's awareness and participation. Unfortunately, too many pilots think of the union as a separate entity instead of realizing that they are the union.

 

[Club ORD FO]

So, Bailey, are you advising that it's better not to even try because there's the possibility that your contract might not be as good as the NJ pilots got? Isn't some written protection better than none at all? Aren't improvements worth fighting for? Don't you believe that professional pilots deserve more compensation than less skilled workers who are home every night and don't take responsibility for lives and equipment worth millions? Do you not believe in the American right to vote?

I'm not a big fan of the argument that a union at flex will equal NJ's contract. We have different people here, different personalities, and that would lead to a different contract...maybe it'll take a lot longer than a year too.

What I am wondering is, have you lost anything at NJ thanks to the union?? How are relations with management and schedulers?? friendly??? They are at Flex. Sure as hell were not at my last union property. I do believe that management does want to improve our QOL and that they are working on it. Question is, will a union make it happen faster??? I'm not so sure, and I'm not so sure that it is worth the risk of losing the pleasant working enviroment. There are some things we want changed at Flex, but I think it can be done without the hassle of a union. I have not been there long enough though to have a good feeling of how fast/slow changes are coming along. I do know that a lot of people at Flex complain a hell of a lot more than necessary, but most are happy. I think that if it were voted on today, the union would only get a 25% yes vote at the most. Just my experience from the people I have run into.

And I might add that I am in the Lear fleet. I work a hell of a lot less now than I did at ACA/independence, and I will make more money this year than I ever did there. Sure the pay is better at NJ, but I don't think a union is a guaranteed fix-all. So....for now, not worth the trouble. Until they say "no gateways ever," or if a year from now there is no progress on that field, I'll let them keep working on it without the formality of a union. I may end up getting that ORD base sooner than if the Teamster did it thier way.