Flexjet side deal mediation attempt?

[el raton]

It's not the union's fault, it'sKR fault. RTA/Options had over 1000 pilots at one point. We are so lucky that only 25 guys got the raw deal this time. KR is all about division and his race to the bottom AGAIN. There are a lot of worse sob stories out there. Sitting the fence is one thing,working against other pilots is another. We need everyone's help,or we will ALL pay the price again.

Cabbie, I could accuse you of working against other pilots too. I won't stoop that low.

 

[1folinepilot]

I'm not going anywhere. I need this job. That is until something better comes along.

It's a d/ck move what the union did and is doing to the pilots at Flex. Our junior captains will end up being bumped out of their seats. After that, Holmes, It will take years for us just to regain back what we lost, thanks to the union.

Please, tell me, why would we support such a losing proposition? It will take years to recoup the financial loss. What's the benefit? We're still going to have 12-14hr duty days. We're still going to work 190+ days a year. We're still going to have the same crappy health care, etc.

The union is a losing proposition, and I will work hard to help decertify. It sounds like the union leadership isn't that worried about decertification so maybe you shouldn't be worried either. However, we're gonna give it a helluva shot.



Btw, I'm not an IGM, I'm trying to just save what I have. Can you fault me? We have different views. We can still all be friends.

Dude, with your back stabbing self serving attitude you and I will never be friends.

Even in your post that im replying to you are spreading Lies and fud. The Union is not kicking anybody out of their seats or demoting anybody. Even the junior Flex guys that are junior by 6 to 8 years of the Options guys that are out on furlough not making a dime. But you are only worried about yourself

Ricci is purposly pitting as many people against each other in his insane delusional quest to control the pilots and you are sucking into his plan.

The Union is not the problem, you are the problem

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Yes I do try to hold certain other pilots back. KR has already cost me several 100k, and now the company is using certain pilots as pawns to divide the group. How did Netjets become so successful? UNITY.

 

[John MClain]

I'm gonna stick around. At least long enough to help the Flex side with decertification.

Decertification?

You have no idea what you're talking about. Stop regurgitating what you are reading on Yammer, posted by those who also don't know what they are talking about. Decertification can't and won't happen.

On second thought, keep doing what you're doing.

 

[Bjtdrvr]

"Our junior captains will end up being bumped out of their seats."

While it is true that if pilots bump down they may be moved to another airframe BUT you do NOT lose your captain status. That actually was a KR thing during negotiations. That is how our existing contract works at FO. The only way to lose your captain status is if there are furloughs. Then if one is furloughed they can be brought back as an sic. So if your retain your captain status you retain your captain pay which I assume is the crux of the issue. I will say I have no idea what the abitrator will say in regards to this issue. The FAR MORE PRESSING ISSUE is that KR wants all Red Lable crews to be IMMUNE to furloughs!!!!!!!!!!! Hopefully the arbitrator sees through this whole charade and identifies it for what it is! UNION BUSTING!!

BTW just the simple fact that the company prohibits the Fo pilots from participating on yammer is MORE than enough to overturn any decertification vote should it ever even happen. In a documented case, even a person using a company copy machine for the purpose of organizing a decertification vote was enough for the NMB to find fault and company collusion enough to overturn it.

 

[shanes123]

Keep yammer. It's like the RL and IRL the decent pilots don't want to fly with those A Holes

 

[jetwash]

Decertification?

You have no idea what you're talking about. Stop regurgitating what you are reading on Yammer, posted by those who also don't know what they are talking about. Decertification can't and won't happen.

On second thought, keep doing what you're doing.

You are exactly right.

I can't believe how many pilots on the Flex side of the house think that Kenn can call for a decertification vote in December.

They have no idea of who can call for a vote and what is involved to even get to that stage. They are living in a dream world.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Kenn sure likes to waste money.

 

[Honorstudent]

It is Managment and gullible Flex minions that are spreading the word of decert on Yammer, and unless I'm mistaken that is a Huge RLA violation for KR or any of his managers like RH or JW to get involved in that process. Another violation would be the fact that the Flight Options Pilots do not have access to Yammer, which has become a Union bashing web site, with all of the Onesky managements lies being propagated by the usuall antiunion suspects. There is no doubt that KR is attempting to stack the numbers in his favor if there ever was any kind of a vote, hopefully the MCBA at the end of July will calm enough FLEX Pilots that FW MR and others will open there eye's as to what is actually going on. I read the out and out lies spewed forth on Yammer and it is sickening.

 

[Imissmypilot]

Ok so let's get to the heart of the issue: MONEY! Let's just admit that and help you see that is a ridiculous concern. The only people who stand to have a worse W2 next year are probably Red Label Captains who are practically stealing it anyway. (You know the ones who claim they deserve the extra money for their sacrifices in one breath and then in the next rave how their quality of life is dramatically improved as a result of Red Label in the next.)

El Raton is that what you at worried about regarding junior captains too? Because there seems to be enough evidence that financially they won't be harmed except in the event of a furlough which a union actually helps prevent. If anything they will get to enjoy the benefits of pay stability offered to them via a CBA that Ricci himself would NEVER give to them unless there was a sinister agenda attached to it.

I am curious though. I would hardly consider you a junior Captain. 6 ways to Sunday your status as a CL30 Captain is all but guaranteed from here to eternity. Even with seniority based upgrades to International you are just simply too old to expect to get them in time for you to care. Sorry, but actually dude I hope you and I both aren't still flying in 20 years. If so we have royally ********************ed up our retirement goals. But I digress.

Now, regarding your forever CL30 Captain status, given the rough demographics of the Flexjet-only seniority list that was going to remain true whether or not Flexjet was ever sold. So in essence you are no worse off now under the Union's plan, SLI or not, then you were before. Even if you made it to the 604 your pay doesn't change, just your destination. Given the sh!tstorm of crazy Europe is becoming, I say staying far away from that might be a blessing in disguise.

However many pilots at OneSky who have actually been employed far longer than you or I are in fact worse off then before every time Ricci has his way. Out of seniority upgrades, stagnant growth, furloughs, RIFs you name it. That is certainly true for old RTA folk, old Options folks and now even for high seniority Flex folks who have been passed over for slots that should be their's for the taking.

Yet here you sit, a part of the #2 fractional with airframes on order, supposedly a flush sales projection and a pilot's Union protecting your right to fair seniority based upgrades, job protections, better work rules and the first raise we've seen in years and you think this is all doom and gloom you want to work hard to decertify, as if that were even possible? I don't get it.

Put down the Kool Aid friend. Reality is staring you in the face and you are just still too damned angry to take gulp of clear water. I get you're pissed. Frankly there's a small part of me that is pissed to we are not still Flexjet too but dude that is wasted heartache. Your wallet and your ego are not going to be harmed. Ricci's will be and in the end that's why he wants us at each other's throats. Don't fall for the FUD.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

FUD. 6 pilots have moved on in the last 30 days. The options side is getting worked so hard, pilots are leaving for more pay and less work. RH is in Dallas spewing his FUD and saying the Options pilots are lazy. RH is a manure spreader Scheduling is no longer honoring a 12 hour duty day after 3 consecutive days of 14 hours. I want to know who these lazy pilots are,because I should see them just hanging out at the FBOs. They are forcing us to call fatigue because they are no longer honoring their "guidlines"..

 

[el raton]

Imissmypilot...who told you I'm in the Challenger? I'm not.

How is it fair that fo's at flops are taking our chance of going there away? We got screwed, and we're gonna get it worse after the mcba. Especially if Ken is as bad of a businessman as the union says he is.

 

[Bjtdrvr]

So what you are saying is that you want to decertify so red label pilots can all stay safe even though many of them could not hold the position that they are in (in case of a furlough). Or decertify so KR could just get rid of all of the pilots in a single fleet if he so chooses because it would make financial sense for him to reduce training costs? Then who gets screwed? You are being very short sighted when it comes to the big picture!!!!! KR is all about money and keeping as much of it as he can.

 

[el raton]

So what you are saying is that you want to decertify so red label pilots can all stay safe even though many of them could not hold the position that they are in (in case of a furlough). Or decertify so KR could just get rid of all of the pilots in a single fleet if he so chooses because it would make financial sense for him to reduce training costs? Then who gets screwed? You are being very short sighted when it comes to the big picture!!!!! KR is all about money and keeping as much of it as he can.

I'm right where my seniority a flexjet should be. The onesky list does put me and every pilot around me in a possible danger of being bumped. Everything about this screams "fair", but "fair" only for Flops pilots and the top of the seniority list at Flexjet.

Why should I be willing to sacrifice what I have for something I don't believe in when I have other options that are better? Since the IBT was voted in nothing good has happened at Flex. Trust me, I'm not the only one who feels this way.

 

[Bjtdrvr]

I understand what you are saying in regards to the sli. What I am saying is are you better off with all of the.red label pilots getting a pass if there is another furlough or will YOU be in danger of being furloughed if KR has his way of furloughing out of seniority.

 

[Imissmypilot]

Imissmypilot...who told you I'm in the Challenger? I'm not.

How is it fair that fo's at flops are taking our chance of going there away? We got screwed, and we're gonna get it worse after the mcba. Especially if Ken is as bad of a businessman as the union says he is.

Whatever dude. We both know who each other are so let's be real. If you are a part of the only group that got slightly raw deal in SLI then you are a mid pack challenger Captain. There is no other option. If you are now saying you are not part of that group, then quit yer b!tching cuz you got no dog in the fight.

Those FO's at Flops have been working for what is now called OneSky longer than you or I or certainly any Lear Capt or Flex FO. The SLI is honoring seniority plain and simple. When I am wearing my selfish hat I'm not thrilled about it either but the fact is what was done was FAIR and it did not diminish my career expectations. So instead of being mid pack of a group of 300, now you're midpack of group of 600 with double the planes, customers and prospects. At best it's a wash. However, because you now have a union protecting your status and giving you other quality of life improvements I say it's a heck of a lot better than a wash.

BTW I don't think anyway ever said Kenn was bad businessman in the sense you are using it. Quite the opposite. After all, Kenn sure has a knack for lining his pockets with diamonds and gold. The issue is the fact he does so unethically and on the sweat and backs of some by trading on the gullibility and selfishness of others.

You people refuse to do your research. You insist on believing fairy tales propagated by sooth sayers preying on your deepest insecurities. As I said before, I think $$ is at the heart of your cause here el raton. Fair enough. But now you need to ask yourself if you honestly are going to take a hit. And if so, is what you're getting worth to you?

In my book, a stable if not rising W2 with job protections and quality of life improvements does not equal a tragedy. And if anything it's a heck of a lot better than what we've got for the past 7-8 years. By all accounts that's what this union is getting us. Why don't you at least take a wait and see approach to July before you guys keep making a$$es of yourselves with these petitions and hyperbole.

 

[el raton]

I have no clue, nor do I care who you are. I'm amazed at the Flex pilots that are fighting so hard to give away their seats. So be it. I'm not in this group. I just want to save what I have.

 

[Imissmypilot]

I'm right where my seniority a flexjet should be. The onesky list does put me and every pilot around me in a possible danger of being bumped. Everything about this screams "fair", but "fair" only for Flops pilots and the top of the seniority list at Flexjet.

Why should I be willing to sacrifice what I have for something I don't believe in when I have other options that are better? Since the IBT was voted in nothing good has happened at Flex. Trust me, I'm not the only one who feels this way.

I really don't think you understand the SLI, the CBA or history.

A union is the only thing preventing Kenn Ricci from acting on what you say your fears are. I respect you, I like you but friend you are just butthurt over a few slots on a list and that is so short sighted.

I actually disagree with you regarding the IBT and the general feeling of the pilot group. I have been on record not exactly being the biggest fan of leadership but I am getting the feeling I will have to eat a big dose of humble pie. They have been slowly and methodically winning here. I would encourage you to investigate the truth behind that statement and just exactly who is responsible for it.

People are starting to realize the chef behind our sh!t sandwich of late is management. If you don't recognize the game of union busting than you are just too dense to ever see it.

I think you, me and others will start to feel just little more grateful soon for our union leaders. They fought an uphill battle and have had their reputations trashed all so you and I could have a better tomorrow. I do feel a little sheepish and embarrassed sometimes about that but if anything what I am starting to see from the line is a lot more gratefulness and a lot less bashing. To put it simply, the union is winning the PR game, the courts game and hopefully the contracts game. Even the company lawyer knows it now. The only remaining holdout is Kenn and people like you.

 

[Imissmypilot]

I have no clue, nor do I care who you are. I'm amazed at the Flex pilots that are fighting so hard to give away their seats. So be it. I'm not in this group. I just want to save what I have.

Kenn Ricci is the only one giving away seats. To junior pilots who don't deserve them.

So do you want to continue Kenn's way where there is NOTHING stopping him from signing away your seat, seniority number and pay...

or

Do you want to try it the union's way where you do not lose your seat (no system flush) \, you do not lose your pay or you do not suffer some arbitrary consequence the next time Kenn gets a wild hair?

It's like arguing with a brick wall. You are just pissed beyond logic.

Have fun with that. But stop ********************ing up my career so you can remain pissed.

 

[Propilot77]

......

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

https://youtu.be/_dm9k0XHM6A
How quickly we forget.

 

[V1 Rotate]

I have no clue, nor do I care who you are. I'm amazed at the Flex pilots that are fighting so hard to give away their seats. So be it. I'm not in this group. I just want to save what I have.

You're either illiterate or just refuse to accept the truth. NO ONE will lose their seat due to integration. It's federal law and it's repeated in th Flight Options contract, the one that you fear so much. You'll only be bumped from a seat due to a furlough or fleet reduction, which are management decisions, not the Union's. And in management's 7.15 proposal, if you're non Red Label, then it's lights out for you with their insane bumping rights proposal that they continue to defend on Yammer.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

El, are you more concerned about having a title or with a decent quality of life? I'll swing the gear and call you Captain as long as they compensate me fairly.

 

[shanes123]

El Raton isn't gonna change his mind. He enjoys KR sticking his El Baton in his mouth to much like the rest of the RL,IRL,IGMs.

 

[Imissmypilot]

You're either illiterate or just refuse to accept the truth. NO ONE will lose their seat due to integration. It's federal law and it's repeated in th Flight Options contract, the one that you fear so much. You'll only be bumped from a seat due to a furlough or fleet reduction, which are management decisions, not the Union's. And in management's 7.15 proposal, if you're non Red Label, then it's lights out for you with their insane bumping rights proposal that they continue to defend on Yammer.

The problem is that he is not illiterate, nor are some (but not all) of the yammer jammers. They just refuse to accept the truth.

It is extremely frustrating to have had the opportunity to read all the union proposals for the CBA and then get on yammer and see my fellow pilots try to destroy and distract away from me getting what is in those proposals.

RH and others have claimed the union proposals are unrealistic. Really? Have these people even read them? Because when I read them in light of our current standards, the Net Jets CBA and industry trends I think they actually are beyond reasonable! It seems to me they were not trying to go high to come low but actually put forth proposals that could have been accepted right away.

I find it entertaining Rick is still so worried about being outted as the liar he is claiming unprofessionalism and the JW gets on there and actually calls one of his own pilots an a liar! Who are these clowns? But once again I digress...

The only thing that kept us from getting a contract in 9 months was the company. If you are telling me that a group of 6 guys with full time jobs, families and little experience could wade through and come up with a complete and reasonable proposal in that period of time but the company couldn't put forth one single valid proposal in that time is your proof then I call BS!

Here are the facts: we DID have a contract proposal in 9 months. The union presented one. What we did not get was the right to vote on that contract because the company (and a federal judge said it was proven) REFUSED to negotiate. The only reason we are in arbitration now is because a judge is forcing it otherwise the company would keep delaying years if they could. Perhaps Rick was just making his prediction of the 9 months being impossible because he was privy to Kenn's plan to delay, delay and delay some more.

So we finally get some progress and a judge to put an end to the delay tactic and now we have a group of un-informed and/or pigheaded and/or stupid pilots led by the idiot of all idiots that wants to give the company back the right to keep delaying by forcing an end to arbitration? What ********************ing reality bending drugs are these guys on?

I am pissed. And you should be too. And you jammers should be worried about your reputation because now FW, MW, WJ, MR, PD, RA, SG, JJ etc... I am going to do everything in my power to help everyone see that every day this fight continues and takes away bread from my table and stress in my career is your fault. Your fault because you refuse to read and research for yourself. Your fault because you obstruct not on principle or fact but on stubbornness. Your fault because you trash the reputations of your fellow pilots for sport. You don't look to engage them in fruitful debate or point out hypocrisy (because you can't) so you smear them from a high tower where the company protects your disgusting behavior. Your work against my career and family will not be forgotten and I will do everything in my power to remind others of it to. YOUR CHOICE TO BE A PAWN IN THE FIGHT OF MAN AGAINST HIS OWN EMPLOYEES will not soon be forgotten.

Recently on yammer in which one of the jammers accused our union representing pilots of not having Flexjet pilot interests at heart. What dream world is he living in that he then goes on to assert management does? These people are out of touch with the most basic basics of reality.

Your union leaders ARE pilots who work on the line every day. Do you really think they'd cut off their nose just to spite their face?

The Chairman of the Board and his minions have all but declared intifada on our own pilots. But suddenly they are the champion of all that is decent and holy in contract negotiations?

Whatever the ******************** you are drinking should scare even the hardest of crack addicts clean. That is some brain wasting kool aid.

I just found out today yet another union leader is leaving. And the jammers are sure to make hay as they have with the others who are gone now too. A few months ago I would have been pissed at him. But today I have just resigned myself to the fact this is what happens when good men are maligned and battle scarred and unappreciated. So today I am pissed for him. I am pissed for what he has had to endure on my behalf.

I know it doesn't mean much coming from the shadows of cowardice (as many of us are still just not looking to out ourselves in front of this management team or the trashing jammers) but I do give a sincere thank you for all our pilots who are risking their reputations, careers, families etc... to fight for us all. You have my utmost admiration and appreciation. You are men among men.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

I wish I could get on Yammer to remind people of some of Uncle's visions. Anybody like the idea of moving from one airframe to another and starting over at year 1 pay? That was the way things worked in KR's world prior to the Union.

 

[V1 Rotate]

I wish I could get on Yammer to remind people of some of Uncle's visions. Anybody like the idea of moving from one airframe to another and starting over at year 1 pay? That was the way things worked in KR's world prior to the Union.

If the grievance filed a month ago works out, you'll get your wish.

 

[Club ORD FO]

Well said iMiss.

 

[dime line]

I wish I could get on Yammer to remind people of some of Uncle's visions. Anybody like the idea of moving from one airframe to another and starting over at year 1 pay? That was the way things worked in KR's world prior to the Union.

"Slide to Poverty"

 

[1folinepilot]

It amazes me that the flex guys are trying to do a side deal mediation attempt to "fix the SLI". Those guys got a huge gift as it is already! There are over 45 guys that were hired after me are senior to me and there are guys as PIC in the G450 that were hired 13 years after me. What else could they possibly want? My first born? They already have my career expectation and pay!

So much for doing what is right. I have no respect for those clowns