FlexJet / Flight Options / SkyJet

[Praetorian]

That discussion can not be had, because if we merge under representation, a new contract would have be made. So nothing the options pilots, have or flexjet pilots have, is guaranteed to stay in place.

This is incorrect. If the combined pilot group votes for representation the FO pilots will still be covered by their current CBA. In other words status quo would be in force for the FO pilots. However at that point, the Flex pilots would not be covered by a CBA until a new one could be negotiated to cover the combined group. So you'd be in the same boat as you are now. Good news for you is that the FO pilots current CBA stipulates that, in the event of a merger, a new agreement must be negotiated in nine months, subject to binding arbitration. After the new agreement is ratified by the combined group, you'd be covered.

For the flexjet pilots, some could argue its a risky move as we may lose stuff. There is more to gain for the average options pilot from a merger and less for the average flex pilot.

I disagree. Because the FO pilots are currently covered by a CBA they have the most to loose if a representation election is lost. They currently have everything in writing and have a just cause provision to protect them from unjustified discipline. You can go read the CBA here http://www.ibt1108.org/index.cfm?zone=/unionActive/Contract.cfm

Another way of looking at it is the Flex pilots have nothing to loose, because you have nothing right now. You are at-will and can be fired for a good reason, a bad reason, or no reason at all. Sure you have better wages then the FO pilots do, but that could be changed with a Friday afternoon email. The same goes for your work rules, schedules and benefits.

Now I know what your going to say, because you guys have been saying it over and over again on here. Your going to say that if things change for the worse, you will all rise up and vote the union back in. Right?

It doesn't work that way. At some point in the future, after the NMB has ruled that the two companies are "single transportation system" there is going to be an election. A line in the sand for us all. That election will be both an opportunity and a potential threat to us all. If pilots vote for representation, we press on and work together to negotiate a new CBA to cover us all.

If we vote the union out, we get to test your theory about how "nothing will change", "our managers are really nice people", and the rest of it. If your right, hey great. But if your wrong, now we have to start all over. And this is how that will go:

Organizing campaign: One year minimum. (Took about 2.5 years at FO)

Contract negotiations: Three years minimum. (Took 3.5 at FO, with your magnificent new benefactor fighting us tooth and nail for the last two).

Oh, and here is the best part. Because we voted out the union, we get to go through all of this (second time for the FO pilots) as at-will employees.

I really think the Flex pilots need to have a good understanding of whats at stake here and I hope you will take the opportunity the new union message board presents to engage in a real dialogue with the union's leadership about these and other issues.

 

[Praetorian]

Not true. And what's up with the name calling??? Anyway, I just went back and reread the Yammer thread where the 1108 board discussion took place. Notice past tense as there is no ongoing conversation about it anymore. Nowhere in that conversation did management try to discourage anyone from joining the board. However, some of the pilots said that they wouldn't on their on free will. In fact, our DO even wondered if the 1108 would let him join since he is on the seniority list. And we know the reason why you were denied access to Yammer is because you guys can't have any direct discussion with management. Sure, maybe your management can send you an e-mail about generic happenings but you know they can't communicate anything negotiation related without it first going through the 1108. If Deanna had approved your request to join Yammer, then she and the rest of management would have had to remove themselves from the group so as not to "directly communicate" with the FLOPs pilots.

The RLA says that the company can't negotiate with individual pilots about "rules and working conditions". Unless DW had plans to do that on Yammer she had zero justification for keeping the FO pilots excluded from the site. Other than to continue to keep Flex pilots in the dark.

Fact is, FO management "directly communicates" with the pilots every day. In the past they have "directly communicated" with the pilots via emails sent over our Black Berries daily. And senior management has communicated with us "directly" via video conference several times since the CBA was ratified.

The union has never expressed any objection to these "direct communications".

 

[V1 Rotate]

Where is this coming from about management not being able to communicate with pilots? They can say anything they want to us, they just cant change the way the game is played.

I'm not sure why you guys want on Yammer so badly anyway? All it would do is give you a coronary because there's no constant management bashing going on or burn the place down discussions either. It's way to civil for the types that promote the opposite here on Flight Info. That being said, until we're one seniority list, the groups need to be kept separate. I appreciate the the olive branch extended by the 1108 to join the discussions there but I won't join for the same reason that I don't think FLOPs pilots should be included in the Bluebelly thread on Yammer. Until then, we can continue to hash it out here since we know that both party's leadership read these posts.

 

[gret]

V1, excellant post. It will be over the goober Praetorians' head to understand, but that's all right. When he and his "brothers" apologize for the lies they post about our management, I might be tempted to look at their propaganda...till then I'll take a pass.
WL

I agree...most excellent post.

Praetorian...it is "lose" as in if you don't win you lose. Not "loose" as in if it isn't tight, it's loose.

It's too bad that everybody can't participate on Yammer, Hummer, or whatever it is called...but a few bad tangerines can ruin it for everyone and that is what would happen. Who wants to be around a couple of malcontents...nobody...and now the entire group is deprived of a very pleasurable experience and the ability to contribute positively to their workplace.

 

[jetwash]

In fact, our DO even wondered if the 1108 would let him join since he is on the seniority list. .

I am not sure about that but it does bring up an interesting bit of information regarding the seniority list.

If you look at the FO list you will see lots of manages on the list who wanted to pay their fair share to the union to keep their names on the list.

I guess even they see the benefits of the union.

 

[The Architect]

Yammer - Move On!

And we know the reason why you were denied access to Yammer is because you guys can't have any direct discussion with management. Sure, maybe your management can send you an e-mail about generic happenings but you know they can't communicate anything negotiation related without it first going through the 1108.

Wrong. So far from the truth. Management can communicate with the Flight Options pilots all they want. And they do. Management calls pilots, pilots call management. Management flies with line pilots, line pilots fly with management. They have lunch together. Hang around and have conversations at headquarters and FBO's. Um, all pretty normal. It's not a problem.

The reality is NOT - "Hey, I can't talk to you...because the union said so."

Ridiculous!

And again, LIEs.

If Deanna had approved your request to join Yammer, then she and the rest of management would have had to remove themselves from the group so as not to "directly communicate" with the FLOPs pilots.

Wrong again. Where did that come from? DW, JW, KR, MS, JW, JS and anyone else could get on there or anywhere else and communicate with Flight Options pilots. It happens now. Not a problem.

This is all just a way to stir things up and fill the air with false statements.

Please, stick to the facts.

Simple truth - ACCESS REQUESTED TWICE.

ACCESS DENIED TWICE!!!

FACT! No apologies needed.

Can we please move on?

 

[asdf]

Guys, I would not sweat the Yammer site, all it is Facebook for the company. You can not really say anything anyway that may be deemed inappropriate by management. Its main function is to disseminate general company information and not really bring up discussion topics like pilot merger, where is the operations center going to be located, or I heard operations is moving to Ohio (which I did not hear) but those type topics on Yammer are strictly forbidden or discouraged as they are rumors. You agreed by joining Yammer you can be terminated for any content you post. Really risky site and I am surprised so many pilots post on there.

 

[V1 Rotate]

Regardless of what we all believe, this whole discussion boils down to joining the 1108 or not. Regardless of who we believe is deceiving who, no one has provided enough evidence to convince very many of Flexjet pilots that we should join in with you. If things go to crap, then it should be discussed. But until it does, why rock that boat? I assure you that if we rock that boat now things will go south much quicker. Why would we do that? We all get that you guys can't stand Kenn and his leadership. And I've stated here and publicly that I don't trust him fully either. I don't trust my cable provider, cell provider or other entities that engage with but until they do something unethical, I continue to do business with them. And so far, no one above my paygrade has crossed that line yet. And it's not I'm anti-union completely, but I am anti-Teamsters for reasons that have nothing do with 1108's particular leadership.

 

[V1 Rotate]

Guys, I would not sweat the Yammer site, all it is Facebook for the company. You can not really say anything anyway that may be deemed inappropriate by management. Its main function is to disseminate general company information and not really bring up discussion topics like pilot merger, where is the operations center going to be located, or I heard operations is moving to Ohio (which I did not hear) but those type topics on Yammer are strictly forbidden or discouraged as they are rumors. You agreed by joining Yammer you can be terminated for any content you post. Really risky site and I am surprised so many pilots post on there.

Where is written that those topics are "strictly forbidden???" I know I've popped off about topics I didn't agree with and had some back and forths with RH that obviously didn't end with me being terminated. In fact, as you probably saw a month or so ago when someone made it way too personal with him, that particular individual is still with us and imagine he'll be here for years to come unless he decides to move on. I happen to hope that he sticks around.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

V1
Uncle Kenn is a very likeable guy, just like Obama. It's his policies that are hurting us.

 

[asdf]

Where is written that those topics are "strictly forbidden???" I know I've popped off about topics I didn't agree with and had some back and forths with RH that obviously didn't end with me being terminated. In fact, as you probably saw a month or so ago when someone made it way too personal with him, that particular individual is still with us and imagine he'll be here for years to come unless he decides to move on. I happen to hope that he sticks around.

I did para phrase and strictly forbidden is not the correct wordage, but you did agree by joining Yammer you can be punished up to termination for any content you put on Yammer. I should have said it would not be wise to put controversial stuff on Yammer. I know of one guy called in to the office for posting intelligent and queering management about their decisions and I have not seen that guy post in a long time, think he stopped participating in Yammer.

My Bad.

 

[Praetorian]

Regardless of what we all believe, this whole discussion boils down to joining the 1108 or not. Regardless of who we believe is deceiving who, no one has provided enough evidence to convince very many of Flexjet pilots that we should join in with you. If things go to crap, then it should be discussed. But until it does, why rock that boat? I assure you that if we rock that boat now things will go south much quicker. Why would we do that? We all get that you guys can't stand Kenn and his leadership. And I've stated here and publicly that I don't trust him fully either. I don't trust my cable provider, cell provider or other entities that engage with but until they do something unethical, I continue to do business with them. And so far, no one above my paygrade has crossed that line yet. And it's not I'm anti-union completely, but I am anti-Teamsters for reasons that have nothing do with 1108's particular leadership.

So let say we vote out the union and without the threat of the union KR feels free to start screwing with you. What's your plan then?

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Failure to plan is planning to fail.

 

[Praetorian]

Praetorian...it is "lose" as in if you don't win you lose. Not "loose" as in if it isn't tight, it's loose.

Thanks buddy. You arr of cource rigght. My edditor is on vacations. What cann i saay.

I know your just tryen to help out.

 

[V1 Rotate]

I did para phrase and strictly forbidden is not the correct wordage, but you did agree by joining Yammer you can be punished up to termination for any content you put on Yammer. I should have said it would not be wise to put controversial stuff on Yammer. I know of one guy called in to the office for posting intelligent and queering management about their decisions and I have not seen that guy post in a long time, think he stopped participating in Yammer.

My Bad.

Yeah, I know there are several guys who refuse to participate for various reasons but the most recent "offender" is still posting. Although I've yet to receive a phone call from leadership, I keep getting asked if I have. I guess I'm proof that you can spout off respectively and be just fine.

So let say we vote out the union and without the threat of the union KR feels free to start screwing with you. What's your plan then?

I know you want me to say that we'll unionize when that happens. In our case, Kenn is extremely beholden to the investors who have BILLIONS riding on Flexjet's success. For once in his aviation career, he has a pretty content group of pilots who care about the success of their company and why on earth would he destroy that?

V1
Uncle Kenn is a very likeable guy, just like Obama. It's his policies that are hurting us.

I don't find Obama likable and we could do another 700 post conversation as to why, but I get your point. So far, Kenn's policies aren't hurting us. But Obama's are for sure.

 

[slowtation capt]

I'm not sure why you guys want on Yammer so badly anyway?

We don't. Couldn't care less about a company facebook messenger. I have a Flops email address with everyone's email. If I want to know something or have a question, I will send an email, and I will get a response.

What we want is for you guys to admit that the excuse that they gave you about why we are unable to be on Yammer is completely, unequivocally, unmistakably, explicitly, and indisputably not true.

You guys say that you are tired of Union Pushers on FI.

What I am tired of, is Flex Management Pushers on FI.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

Glad some of the rational pilots at FJ are starting to post. It's nice to see some posts that show that not everyone here feels the sky is falling.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but it sure is nice that the silent majority seems to be breaking their silence.

 

[Praetorian]

I know you want me to say that we'll unionize when that happens. In our case, Kenn is extremely beholden to the investors who have BILLIONS riding on Flexjet's success. For once in his aviation career, he has a pretty content group of pilots who care about the success of their company and why on earth would he destroy that?

So no plan? Just counting on KR's beneficence and hoping for the best?

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

We don't. Couldn't care less about a company facebook messenger. I have a Flops email address with everyone's email. If I want to know something or have a question, I will send an email, and I will get a response.

What we want is for you guys to admit that the excuse that they gave you about why we are unable to be on Yammer is completely, unequivocally, unmistakably, explicitly, and indisputably not true.

You guys say that you are tired of Union Pushers on FI.

What I am tired of, is Flex Management Pushers on FI.

Wrong

You are tired of people who don't share the same views as you.

You can't stand it that there are FJ pilots that don't agree with you.

The only thing you guys seem to believe is that DW is a liar.

You keep bringing this up again and again and again and again........

You are trying to break our trust in management. DW was a replacement for bad management, FR. He was here for +/- 4 years and didn't do anything positive for FJ.

DW is a huge improvement over FR. She understands fractional aviation.

You guys are so quick to judge someone that you know nothing about. What did she do at FJ before she became president? How long has she worked at FJ?

I know you guys have had some bad leaders before, but you new boss is a good one. Don't judge her based on others actions.

 

[V1 Rotate]

So no plan? Just counting on KR's beneficence and hoping for the best?

How's your union plan of going from rags to riches working out? So yes, I guess you're right. I'd rather roll the dice on the status quo and if I'm wrong, then I'm wrong. But you'd never admit it if happened to you. I think this conversation has gotten to the point where you guys want us to fail just as much as we want you to succeed in achieving more. We're not going to convince each other otherwise so why not bury the hatchet and agree to disagree? The back and forth is getting very monotonous and is providing no meaningful dialogue.