FlexJet / Flight Options / SkyJet

[slowtation capt]

Are you going to try to answer any if my questions as to what % of FO pilots are members of the IBT.

Since I am not a member of the MEC, I don't have those #'s.
I won't try to answer it, I couldn't guess either. There's pilots that I have never met, never even heard their names, etc....
From my experience 70% of the pilots that I personally fly with have the horses.

Also, if things were/are so bad there, why do so many of your pilots hate the IBT? It doesn't seem like they are totally against unions, just the IBT.

Because it's the IBT. There is always that stigma that will follow the IBT
The thing though is; and you said it.

It doesn't seem like they are totally against unions, just the IBT.

If you can find a Union that would suit us better, and will represent us, let us know, but my guess is, you won't find it.

 

[slowtation capt]

That post about being being unjustly fired is a reason why I won't apply at options anytime soon.

There's no need to apply, KR bought you.

 

[FR8DOG777]

Club you are asking questions and trying to become informed, which is admirable. By your analogy basically you are saying we want to ride the coat tails of the progress that the union at netjets has made. Or maybe you get hired at delta, United, or American tomorrow and enjoy the contractual benefits that have been hard fought for and won for year, after year, after year. Do not discount our 16 years of experience with RICCI. Had it not been for Raytheon, flops would have faced the same fate of avantair by 2003. RICCI took all the money and invested it into his infrastructure, sold bad contracts to gain market share, and defaulted on his loan to Raytheon. That is indisputable. So now we, flight options pilots go into survival mode and circle the wagons and unionize. We are sold a bunch of lies and rebuild this company from the ground up, including ********************ty wages and degraded life on the road. OK great we screwed up and now all boats must rise with the incoming tide right? Except they don't want to share the fruits of our labors. I am tired of this argument. RICCI will never pay us. I say we call the vote tomorrow and move on with life!

 

[slowtation capt]

that's not enough suddenly change how we've handled human resources.

Who is the head of human resources now?

If Bob Sullivan is the answer, well Bob Sullivan was a major part of the firing of 4.

Why not just wait for things to get bad, then you can say I told you so, and you'll get a lot more votes

Because I've been down that road, it's a 6 yr. process from when you get feed up with it being bad till you have something worth voting on.

I've invested my time into it all ready, and I don't want to waste the investment I put into it.

I've said it before, I'll say it again.

Nothing can stop KR from doing things RIGHT THIS MINUTE to make things better from Flops (pay, 401K, etc)

KR didn't hesitate to give us a meal plan the minute he bought the company, we didn't have a contract yet, but we had the Union.

I always heard from KR that he wanted Flops pilots to be the hightest paid. Well.............

During negotiations, the raise he wanted to give us, was to bring back the SFO program.
Granted, times were bad back when we voted yes for the contract.
However things have improved, couldn't KR give us a raise mid contract? How about the 401K,
YES, he can.

 

[The Architect]

DW Lied

She actually said the union would not allow direct communications between management and FO pilots on Yammer.

The union did NOT say "it would not allow direct communications between management and FO pilots on Yammer."

If she said that, SHE LIED.

Carefully read the communications. The union specifically requested access for the Flight Options pilot. Management "DENIED" the access.

DW's reference on Yammer is a matter of fait accompli. The union asked for access to the only employee group omitted by OneSky from Yammer, the Flight Options pilots. The request did not mention anything with regard to "terms and conditions of employment." The union was denied. The union asked again, emphasizing that it found the forum acceptable since "terms and conditions of employment" would be management-representative discussions. DENIED AGAIN.

Let's get this right and put it to rest.

It's OneSky's Yammer. They control it. ACCESS DENIED!

If you want to use a forum to communicate with Flight Options pilot and the union, go to their message board. ACCESS PERMITTED!

 

[FR8DOG777]

If we could get RICCI banned from business aviation like Donald Sterling got banned from the NBA, life would be better for all of us!

 

[The Architect]

What Happened!

Why is everyone throwing sand in the sandbox?

Everyone was getting along with constructive conversation?

What happened?

So, let's give it a try.

Explain to me the FO crews who I run into on the road that have experienced all of the same stuff as you and want nothing to do with the IBT, much less a union.

Oh, you may have found a few crews disgruntled. That happens everywhere. Don't make it sound like a majority.

You say we don't understand. What I don't understand is that if things are as bad as you say, why aren't 100% of the FO pilots in favor of the IBT?

Same answer as above. Everyone knows that you will never get 100% of over 400 individuals to agree. Especially pilots. Like you for example.

If people that have gone through the same thing as you seem to agree with my views, why should we take your word over theirs?

You shouldn't. Every individual needs to get educated and ready to make a decision. Discuss. Argue a little. Research. Weigh your options. Don't make your final decision yet. It's too early. But try to stick with facts when making decisions rather than unsubstantiated opinions.

Explain to me the little symbol on your ID that shows that you are a union member. Why don't all of your pilots have that? Any chance you might be willing to disclose the number of pilots that don't have that on their IDs?

Easy. When Flight Options pilots negotiated their contract they wanted to be able to wear IBT lanyards. The company didn't like ANY lanyards to conform with their opinion of a pilot uniform. The parties agreed to the IBT logo on company IDs. If a pilot is a member in good standing, he gets a badge with the logo. He can choose to wear it, or his ID without it.

Wow, freedom of choice!

The number? Does it really matter? And the union wouldn't know who's wearing what badge at any given time. That's a matter of choice.

 

[slowtation capt]

If we could get RICCI banned from business aviation like Donald Sterling got banned from the NBA, life would be better for all of us!

It wouldn't be hard, if we were in the NBA.

 

[Ludicrous Speed]

Club ORD - Our management at flex is different. Sure they might all be replaced, but until that happens I'm not worried about our management suddenly starting to can people they don't like. I don't care if KR is the head honcho, that's not enough suddenly change how we've handled human resources.

Club, I think we've been on opposite sides of the road so far, even though I consider many of your posts thoughtful. I gotta question this portion of your post, though. First you say you're not worried, then you admit that Uncle is indeed the new big Kahuna.

This is the part I find difficult. We've been banging our heads against the wall wanting you to admit there's a new sheriff in town. But even when you do, you still state nothing will change, even though we have had years of experience in this matter and even though you have had some changes thrust upon you already.

Honestly, I'm tryin' to follow your logic because I don't see how you can have one, but exclude the other. Are you Googling "Flight Options, lawsuits" or "Flight Options, Raytheon"? Have you researched Uncle's past history? Not conjecture, but his actual track record?

This is a big part of our position. We've experienced a merger. We've experienced Uncle - and other CEO's - with and without representation. We've experienced a rodeo - hard fought during the Great Recession. We may not say it so eloquently, but we know this guy. We know how he operates.

A "wait 'n see" plan is really no plan at all - it's leaving your future in the hands of someone else. Is that really how you want your career to proceed?

 

[Downwind]

I don't have a horse in this race but from where I sit the FJ guys have their heads buried six feet in the sand. I haven't seen this much denial since the ex-WindRider guys followed Wynn and Co. into the ground at Pinnacle/JetRide/Aspen jet. I hope the best for you guys but I think a lot of you need a reality check. Life has changed and is probably about to change even more. And I don't think you can see that.

 

[Propilot77]

I don't have a horse in this race but from where I sit the FJ guys have their heads buried six feet in the sand. I haven't seen this much denial since the ex-WindRider guys followed Wynn and Co. into the ground at Pinnacle/JetRide/Aspen jet. I hope the best for you guys but I think a lot of you need a reality check. Life has changed and is probably about to change even more. And I don't think you can see that.

Sometimes when You close your eyes, You can't see.
The problem IS denial and most everyone, not all, at FJ WILL NOT EVEN TAKE THE TIME TO EDUCATE THEMSELVES regardless of their position. I want to help the helpless, but I don't want to help the clueless.

 

[Seahawk]

We have already been down this road many times. If we need representation, we will vote for it. Meanwhile, all y'all going to be stuck in the mud awhile while we play on our own beach!

 

[asdf]

Why do people always say you need to educate yourself or I just want to help, especially when talking about unions? Why not just say what you mean when using that phrase, "I think you are stupid for not agreeing with me". Or who really just wants to help another individual at another company, "what you really mean I want to do what is best for me and I am going to make it sound like I am helping you". I've always found that phrase or similar ones funny and annoying at the same time. Who knows the person saying that phrase may actually be less educated than the person on the receiving end of that phrase.

I think a more productive discussion would be what exactly
are the benefits of joining the union. IE, Pay, Days Off, Benefits, Job Security, etc. As it is now this discussion is more of personal preference rather than facts. There is not one post that says if Flexjet joins the 1108 they will get a pay rise, better benefits, job security, etc. This is truly a very unusual merger where the non union group generally has better pay/benefits than the union group. In fact, if I were Flexjet my biggest concern would be the new company growing the FLOPS side of the company because pay and benefits are generally 30-40% of what Flexjet pilots earn. That may be the reason to join the union but here again that is speculation and who knows what management intentions are. Another speculation may be if FLOPS gives up the 1108 then management will match Flexjet pay for FLOPS pilots. I wouldn't bet on that but who knows. Fact is no one really knows what is going to happen but I can see benefits for Flexjet to join a union and I can also see downfalls to joining the union. This is truly a very unique situation in aviation union history and it seems backwards. The union jobs are the lower paid and the non union are the higher paid. Truly weird and unique.

 

[Club ORD FO]

Club, I think we've been on opposite sides of the road so far, even though I consider many of your posts thoughtful. I gotta question this portion of your post, though. First you say you're not worried, then you admit that Uncle is indeed the new big Kahuna.

Ok fair enough, yes that is kinda contradictory. I suppose what I mean is, right now we have a pretty good relationship with middle management and maintenance and don't have any pressure to fly broken airplanes (our maintenance people are all really cool actually, always have our back) and I'm not aware of anyone being fired without a good cause. So yes, KR is in charge but my argument is that alone does not mean things will suddenly get bad, unless he changes our middle management. I can't see our chief pilot suddenly changing the way he handles pilot disciplinary actions, and I don't see our maintenance guys suddenly deciding not to have our back. Is KR going to send an email that says "hey managers, start treating your pilots like crap." Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like the problem at options was middle management, who may or may not have been following KRs orders. Our management is good, I like most of he people in the office, and I'd like to think that if KR gave them some shady policy they would say no.

The wait and see is in regards to the NMB petition. Why the need to do it so quickly? If you wait until KR has made all his changes then maybe we will know what you are talking about. Right now it's business as usual.

 

[Club ORD FO]

I think a more productive discussion would be what exactly
are the benefits of joining the union. IE, Pay, Days Off, Benefits, Job Security, etc. As it is now this discussion is more of personal preference rather than facts. There is not one post that says if Flexjet joins the 1108 they will get a pay rise, better benefits, job security, etc. This is truly a very unusual merger where the non union group generally has better pay/benefits than the union

**********
That discussion can not be had, because if we merge under representation, a new contract would have be made. So nothing the options pilots, have or flexjet pilots have, is guaranteed to stay in place. For the flexjet pilots, some could argue its a risky move as we may lose stuff. There is more to gain for the average options pilot from a merger and less for the average flex pilot

I do agree that this is a pretty weird situation. The union company being lower paid than the smaller non-union.

 

[Praetorian]

I think a more productive discussion would be what exactly are the benefits of joining the union. IE, Pay, Days Off, Benefits, Job Security, etc. As it is now this discussion is more of personal preference rather than facts. There is not one post that says if Flexjet joins the 1108 they will get a pay rise, better benefits, job security, etc.

I agree completely. That discussion is happening here http://forum.ibt1108.org/ Why don't you go register and take part in it.

I've heard members of management and their stooges have been trying to scare the Flex pilots on Yammer about registering for the union's message board. You guys should ask yourselves why are they trying so hard to segregate you from the FO pilots. First the deny the FO pilots access to Yammer, justifying if with a transparent excuse/lie. Then when, in response, the union puts up a message board of it's own they try to scare you away from it.

I mean, you guys are seeing through this right?

 

[V1 Rotate]

I agree completely. That discussion is happening here http://forum.ibt1108.org/ Why don't you go register and take part in it.

I've heard members of management and their stooges have been trying to scare the Flex pilots on Yammer about registering for the union's message board. You guys should ask yourselves why are they trying so hard to segregate you from the FO pilots. First the deny the FO pilots access to Yammer, justifying if with a transparent excuse/lie. Then when, in response, the union puts up a message board of it's own they try to scare you away from it.

I mean, you guys are seeing through this right?

Not true. And what's up with the name calling??? Anyway, I just went back and reread the Yammer thread where the 1108 board discussion took place. Notice past tense as there is no ongoing conversation about it anymore. Nowhere in that conversation did management try to discourage anyone from joining the board. However, some of the pilots said that they wouldn't on their on free will. In fact, our DO even wondered if the 1108 would let him join since he is on the seniority list. And we know the reason why you were denied access to Yammer is because you guys can't have any direct discussion with management. Sure, maybe your management can send you an e-mail about generic happenings but you know they can't communicate anything negotiation related without it first going through the 1108. If Deanna had approved your request to join Yammer, then she and the rest of management would have had to remove themselves from the group so as not to "directly communicate" with the FLOPs pilots.

 

[warlord19]

V1, excellant post. It will be over the goober Praetorians' head to understand, but that's all right. When he and his "brothers" apologize for the lies they post about our management, I might be tempted to look at their propaganda...till then I'll take a pass.
WL

 

[dime line]

Not true. And what's up with the name calling??? Anyway, I just went back and reread the Yammer thread where the 1108 board discussion took place. Notice past tense as there is no ongoing conversation about it anymore. Nowhere in that conversation did management try to discourage anyone from joining the board. However, some of the pilots said that they wouldn't on their on free will. In fact, our DO even wondered if the 1108 would let him join since he is on the seniority list. And we know the reason why you were denied access to Yammer is because you guys can't have any direct discussion with management. Sure, maybe your management can send you an e-mail about generic happenings but you know they can't communicate anything negotiation related without it first going through the 1108. If Deanna had approved your request to join Yammer, then she and the rest of management would have had to remove themselves from the group so as not to "directly communicate" with the FLOPs pilots.

Where is this coming from about management not being able to communicate with pilots? They can say anything they want to us, they just cant change the way the game is played.

 

[el raton]

You know, if the FO pilots are so concerned about what's on yammer that maybe they should ask their new boss DW what is being discussed on yammer.