FlexJet / Flight Options / SkyJet

[doh]

Management? It's your "House of Cards" and you have a way out. It's your call.

My house of cards? I'm not Flops. But a protracted fight negatively affected Flops last contract. I would hope management would avoid that this go.

 

[Fresh Air]

What vote are you referring to? Single carrier? Explain to me how a single carrier vote is going to happen when your beloved IBT doesn't want it?

I apologize for the delay in responding to your questions, had a couple of busy flying days and just didn't feel like a dose of Flightinfo after getting to the hotel late.

Anyway, there is no such thing as a "single carrier vote". At a time of its own choosing, the IBT1108 may petition the NMB (National Mediation Board) to conduct an investigation and rule whether or not Flops and Flex are a single carrier. The vote to which I referred would happen after a ruling by the NMB which determined that the entities were in fact a single carrier. That vote would determine whether or not the employees of the carrier desired to be represented or not.

It is my opinion that our IBT 1108 leadership will not file with the NMB as long as a pay disparity exists between our CBA and the Flex pay scale. They know that the Flex crews would never vote to be represented under our current contract, which would result in a huge pay cut for them. Theoretically, the Flex crews could be pay protected by an LOA, but that would really piss off the Flight Options crews who would then be working for the same carrier, with the same seniority as their new brethren, but making a ton less money. So I believe that they will just continue with the current status quo until after a pay raise is negotiated for the Flops crews to bring them to parity.

Finally, I have previously made my opinion of my "beloved" IBT well known. I don't love or even particularly like the IBT, but I understand that they are the only viable option available for us, so I accept the bad along with the good.

 

[doh]

Fresh, that is my prognostication as well.

 

[Club ORD FO]

I don't think that is entirely accurate. If the NMB board rules single carrier, pay is automatically frozen and a new contract is required. Even if options just got a new one on their on. No LOA to protect pay would be required, there is no chance of an automatic instant pay cut for Flex if single carrier status happens. Correct?

 

[FR8DOG777]

good evening Ricci and Rossi, I hope you two bastards are up late reading this from your exquisite Mexican villas. Fool us once shame on you, fool us twice shame on us. I look forward to the battle against your insatiable greed. Only this time we will be fighting with the protections of a federally recognized labor contract. Drag our deplorable wages, no 401k match, and deplorable working conditions out for as long as you like. Our pencils are sharp and our eyes are keen.

* Don't make the lower tier too attractive. Remember, says Ricci, that you can't possibly afford to pay all your employees more than they could make elsewhere. If you need salaries to average out at $30,000, you have to pay someone $15,000 for every person you pay $45,000. What you can offer at the lower end is experience.

"You can't afford to give a sweet deal to everyone, but you can find a way to give it to some" Kenneth Ricci

******************** you Kenny!

 

[Fresh Air]

I don't think that is entirely accurate. If the NMB board rules single carrier, pay is automatically frozen and a new contract is required. Even if options just got a new one on their on. No LOA to protect pay would be required, there is no chance of an automatic instant pay cut for Flex if single carrier status happens. Correct?

Correct, there would be no automatic pay cut when single carrier status is established. However, the finding of single carrier status would trigger a vote by the combined pilot group on whether they wished to be represented by the IBT1108, not represented at all, or represented by another entity. Exactly how that vote would be structured, i have no idea.

As I understand it, if the vote is in favor of representation by the IBT1108, the combined group would be covered by the existing Flight Options CBA, since the Flex crews have no existing collective bargaining CBA, which would result in all crewmembers reverting to the FO pay scale unless the CBA is somehow amended by LOA or whatever.

I'm not a labor lawyer, this is simply what I have learned from watching the process, researching, and speaking to people involved in the process.

 

[dime line]

Correct, there would be no automatic pay cut when single carrier status is established. However, the finding of single carrier status would trigger a vote by the combined pilot group on whether they wished to be represented by the IBT1108, not represented at all, or represented by another entity. Exactly how that vote would be structured, i have no idea.

As I understand it, if the vote is in favor of representation by the IBT1108, the combined group would be covered by the existing Flight Options CBA, since the Flex crews have no existing collective bargaining CBA, which would result in all crewmembers reverting to the FO pay scale unless the CBA is somehow amended by LOA or whatever.

I'm not a labor lawyer, this is simply what I have learned from watching the process, researching, and speaking to people involved in the process.

Flex pay will be covered by a "fence agreement", it will not revert to our pay.

 

[shanes123]

Everyone is so worried about PAY,PAY,PAY.. And that is very important I agree. But wait and see what your pay is worth when you have no work rules, no job protection, being threatened by your program managers, PSM, and even those little puke dispatchers that couldn't tell a airplane from a cruise ship.Being pushed over 14 hrs on a DAILY basis being pushed to fly over 10 hrs on a DAILY basis because its reasonably scheduled. And on top of that all you have no pay protection so they can swipe that away as easy as sending out a message on your BB..But don't worry trust Ken he will take care of you.SARCASM. in case somebody didn't understand that...

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

Shanes,

If you were truly be pushed over 14 hours of duty and 10 hours of flying repeatedly as you so profess, the all powerful IBT would be crying foul to the FAA. There are records of duty and flight times that the FAA can audit.

I understand that you are unhappy at FO, but exaggerating how bad things are to try to persuade people to join the IBT won't work.

We work long dates at FJ also. They aren't every day and the always are within the FAA rules. I bet if you compared our data you would see you don't have it as bad as you profess.

 

[shanes123]

Ok TWA MR know it all until you have walked in our shoes. The reason we don't go over 14 anymore ( with no retaliation ) or refuse a 10/24 ( with no retaliation) is because we have work rules and protections. Before that if we refused a 14 hour day we would get several calls from the managers AKA pilot pushers each one having a higher title then the previous explaining why we have to complete the mission. There have been several calls to the FAA hotline (Pre- Union) with no result. Ask yourself why a Ohio based company has there FSDO in NY? One side of me would like to see FJ pilots vote out this union just so guys like you that speak with no idea what its like in the real world of FLOPS would end up saying "OH ******************** THEY WERE RIGHT" Good luck TWA

 

[chainring]

The Flex guys keeping talking about pay as why they don't want the 1108. Kenn is going to pay a Global captain $145k with no schedule. That should make you think where your pay is going. You guys have no idea how nasty this management team is and all I can say is you want work rules and representation. I caution you to not go into this with blinders on and thinking just because what you have had worked in the past that it won't change. Look hard at Riccis past and ask yourself is it likely he's going to change things. People like him don't change there business model. He's going to run the new company just like he ran Options and Corporate Wings.

As a side note for the Options guys I've heard 3 names that applied for the Global jobs. May, Moore and Marker. That's a surprise. At least 2 part of Kenns inhouse union pushers.

 

[FR8DOG777]

You guys are wasting your time trying to convince these Flex guys that things can be as bad as you say. Until you have experienced it yourself, I.E. post RTA merger cell phone ringing repeatedly at 3:00 am in hotel on rest and then security knocking on the door, you have no idea what reality working for Kenny is like. This is exactly how he wants things to return to being. The question both groups should be asking themselves, are we going to be the vehicle of one mans greed to bring down the last true competitor in the market place "netjets" with our substandard pay and working conditions? Fr8 says no, fr8 says to union no need to send union strike card when the time comes cause I already checked that box a long time ago. Kenn is going down this time, not the pilots.

 

[Brit]

Shanes,

I think TWA has a valid point. I hope you don't bring that attitude into the cockpit each day. You might want to try jerking it a couple of times each day to get that aggression out.

 

[t-bone]

What's the deal with some of the overly aggressive and seemingly excited Flex crews that have been approaching XOJET crews regarding the supposed rumor they're buying all our 300s and leaving the crews behind? Since when do pilots have accurate information ahead of time? Is this Ken's whipsaw in action?

 

[dime line]

Shanes,

If you were truly be pushed over 14 hours of duty and 10 hours of flying repeatedly as you so profess, the all powerful IBT would be crying foul to the FAA. There are records of duty and flight times that the FAA can audit.

I understand that you are unhappy at FO, but exaggerating how bad things are to try to persuade people to join the IBT won't work.

We work long dates at FJ also. They aren't every day and the always are within the FAA rules. I bet if you compared our data you would see you don't have it as bad as you profess.

Actually your wrong, they routinely ask to work over 14 hrs, you don't have to accept, but they ask anyway. And they know who helps and who does not help

 

[albatros101]

145K for a Global is the starting point, If you look at the Pro Pilot Compensation Salary Study, CA rates for Global's are 146K (average) 108K (low) and 191K (high).

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

Dime,

2 questions

What rest rules do you guys operate under? Unless you are doing a 91 position flight I don't see how a crew could accept anything over 14 hours.

What does your contract say. Isn't this the type of thing that the IBT promoters are saying having a union and contract will prevent us from having to endure.

 

[jetwash]

What's the deal with some of the overly aggressive and seemingly excited Flex crews that have been approaching XOJET crews regarding the supposed rumor they're buying all our 300s and leaving the crews behind? Since when do pilots have accurate information ahead of time? Is this Ken's whipsaw in action?

The info is coming right from Kenn himself, he has been telling Flex and Flops crews this in the last month or two. It looks like he wants that CX as well as the 300's. But still no deal yet.

 

[t-bone]

The info is coming right from Kenn himself, he has been telling Flex and Flops crews this in the last month or two. It looks like he wants that CX as well as the 300's. But still no deal yet.

I'm sure he does want them. What's surprising is how callous the crews have been who have approached our guys on the road. Until the ink is dry, there is no deal. Everybody needs to remember that.

Is it possible that Kenn is being so open with his "plans" (which to me seems very odd too, to share that kind of intel with the grunt labor so early on) just to pit the Flex and Flops pilots against each other as they fight over who would get to fly these new birds?

 

[luckydog]

It shows a complete lack of class when a crew member from another operation comes up and starts talking about how great it will be to take your aircraft and put you on the street (insert ill informed speech about date-of-hire integration and McCaskill-Bond)....

and if it's also happening to XO guys as well, it's still a crappy thing to do.