Fired - Need Advice

[PilotBTS1972]

I recently completed training at a well known regional. I passed both my oral and checkride on my first attempt, however, busted my IOE line check for having to go-around on a visual approach due to an early base turn which resulted in me being high on final. I did have some extra time in IOE, but it was nothing out of the ordinary. The airline asked me to resign as a result of this bust. Since then, I cannot seem to get on with another regional and have been forced back into flight instruction. I am afraid that this scar has ruined my career. Granted, I am low time (920 TT, 150 ME), but I'm worried that I may never get on with another regional. Any advice from people with similar experiences.

As an aside, the airline I was with recently formed an alter-ego carrier and has been treating their pilots like dirt. I let everyone guess which regional I'm talking about.

 

[mynameisjim]

I don't know why, but I don't think you just told the whole truth, which will make it hard for anyone to give you any advice.

Failing for initiating a go-around after conducting an unstable approach?

There has GOT to be more to it than that.

 

[PilotBTS1972]

I have no reason to lie on a forum where I'm anonymous. It is what it is and the training records don't lie.

 

[Cardinal]

I'm with Jim, that sounds like it may have been the last problem, not the first. Airlines don't like to dump 20K into training you and then show you the door for no apparent reason. And IOE is a wierd place in the training process to get the boot. Extra IOE time IS out of the ordinary, line flying is the easiest part of airline aviation. Did anybody talk about trouble with the "big picture," "situational awareness," that kind of thing? That's what seems to be the case if problems manifest so late in the game. You can train a monkey to fly an ILS and recite memory items, but integrating skills and information quickly is the real trick.

Don't mean to point the finger, it's just that it's futile to think about and plan for other airlines until you honestly figure out what went wrong the last time and then fix it. Then and only then should you worry about how to explain this in a coherent, honest, positive fashion to an interview board.

 

[fastbird]

Did you fail to recognize the high on final error and try to put in down anyway?

Come clean...confess...admit the whole scenerio. There aren't that many new mistakes in aviation, new ways to make the same error in a high tech way.

 

[Cardinal]

When you're instructing a primary student, how do you handle problems? If you feel they're not ready to solo, it's probably for a variety of little reasons that give you a bad feeling about their succes out there all alone. But to explain this in training records, or to your customer freindly boss, or even to the eager student, you have to pin the problem on a few significant material problems. Could that ill-fated approach just have been the last straw to a concerned check-airman? If he's gonna fail you, he has to have a good reason to put on paper. The GA may have been the "short" story.

 

[Superpilot92]

there has to be more to the story, did you try and force the landing in and the capt have to take the plane or forget the gear?
Dont freak out because you arent getting calls because you are kinda of a low timer just keep flying and i am sure you will be fine.

 

[Peanut Chaser]

Busting IOE is probably the best thing that has happened to you. Now you can focus on a career that actually pays! Stay out!

 

[PilotBTS1972]

I appreciate everyone's comments and assume that the interview boards I have met with since the bust had similar reactions. Going from a Seminole to a EMB-145 is challenging no matter how good a pilot you are, but what I said in my first post is the truth. Visuals were the primary reason for the extra time in IOE, but again, the extra time was not extraordinary. I agree that more time will help, but I'm not sure that doing stalls in a 172 and accumulating 500 more hours is going to make me any more qualified for a regional than I am now.

 

[Bankangle]

sht happens. In your case though its just lack of experience. I would be honest about it. 920/150 is nothing and I can say for certain that you were in way over your head. However dont get down about it.. When I think I had your experience level there was probably no way I couldve made it thru training and IOE. Its scary to me to think that there are folks going from c152s into a 50pax regjet. I basis this just on my own experience. Good luck and stick with it...just build up your experience level.

P.S.
Your career is no where near ruined..this happens more than you think and people recover and go on to have good careers. Also at your experience level it is easily explained and understood.

 

[737 Pylt]

Getting fired is not the end of the world! I know of several people who have been "asked to resign" for different reasons, and they all seem to bounce right back. Push on, keep updating your resume, and something will happen.
It sounds to me like the IOE checkairman was having a bad day to "bust you."
737

 

[mynameisjim]

Well if you are telling the truth (and not just lying to yourself) you need to come up with a better story than that to tell interviewers.

You need to explain that the high approach was the culmination of a long day, blah blah, you weren't giving it your A game, and you didn't recognize when you weren't operating to full strength. Because you didn't recognize the captain decided to take the aircraft, or something.

I would not believe you as an interviewer (just as I don't here) if you try to say you failed for just one thing.

It's like saying you failed for doing a flow in the wrong order, it's not the only thing that happened that day.

 

[mynameisjim]

Oops double

 

[kj6991]

pilotbts1972,

that sounds a bit strange that a well known company would fire you for a poor visual approach to a go-around and a little extra IOE, especially having spent 20K+ on you during training like Cardinal said. I'm not saying I don't believe you, but that sounds a bit strange. I'm also at a well known regional which does everything they can to get you through training. I can attest they wouldn't fire an individual for a poor approach during IOE, maybe even a few bad approaches. Check Airman understand the learning curve and it's their job to work with you and get you through it, because after all, they were in your shoes at one point as well. I've heard of people washing out, but most of the time it's because of extreme circumstances where they are just not "getting it" or they can't keep up with the pace. I have never heard of someone busting for one bad visual approach. Keep your head up and move on. Who knows, maybe it was for the best. Look at it that way.

 

[SkyWestCRJPilot]

Get the Part 135 PIC minimums and start flying freight. It's a great way to get lots of experience and build some good years behind you to show to a future airline.

 

[PilotBTS1972]

mynameisjim,

The problem is that it wasn't the result of a long day or a bad day and I don't want to lie and pretend otherwise in front of an interview board. I simply screwed up the visual. Again, visual's were the main problem for extra IOE and that problem continued on the line check. I thought I had corrected the problem, but since I'm back in a C-172, obviously the problem wasn't corrected to the point where the IOE Check Airman could sign me off.

 

[capt. megadeth]

line flying is the easiest part of airline aviation.

I don't agree with this statement. I think the sim is easier.

 

[capt. megadeth]

Its scary to me to think that there are folks going from c152s into a 50pax regjet. understood.

Dude, there are people with less time than this guy/gal that get into a bomber and friggin go to Iraq. Let's stop the low time dramatics.

 

[FN FAL]

I have no reason to lie on a forum where I'm anonymous. It is what it is and the training records don't lie.

Not nocking you BTS, but just for my own curiosity, how much of your TT is split time?

Time where you split a twin or single rental and logged it with another pilot.

 

[synchoff]

Mesa is hiring. (assuming it wasn't Mesa you were at in the first place).

Your familiarity with the ERJ will help you when you come the CRJ. Same basic concepts.

It has it's moments. But the Boyd group lists two RJP (RJ providers) as "bulletproof". Mesa, and Skywest. Everyone else is a crapshoot.

 

[PilotBTS1972]

FN Fal,

No split time. Everything is either Solo, Dual Given or Dual received. No money to rent planes (even if I'm only paying for half).

 

[BOHICAgain]

I don't agree with this statement. I think the sim is easier.

are you kidding me. Line flying is a joke as long as you get along with the crew. sit back relax and let george(autopilot) do its thing..just try not to get coffee on your shirt

 

[Flybet3]

I appreciate everyone's comments and assume that the interview boards I have met with since the bust had similar reactions. Going from a Seminole to a EMB-145 is challenging no matter how good a pilot you are, but what I said in my first post is the truth. Visuals were the primary reason for the extra time in IOE, but again, the extra time was not extraordinary. I agree that more time will help, but I'm not sure that doing stalls in a 172 and accumulating 500 more hours is going to make me any more qualified for a regional than I am now.

It's ok my friend...I kinda agree with ya, a visual approach on a Jet for the first couple of times is kinda tough. Especially if you dont have anything to back it up with like an ILS. So dont feel to bad, first jet I flew was the CJ, easy jet to fly, probably one of the easiest but every time I did a visual with no back up it made it look like I had no Idea what I was doing. Also having a dik head next to you screaming doesnt help at all. When I flew at the regionals and flew the CRJ I got stuck with an a$$hole of a captain for three days, that was my first big jet experience. If anyone thinks that doing a visual approach into detroit at night with windshear advisories and a ex navy tomcat a-hole is easy...then you suck. Dont worry by friend, as long as you get interviews you can always explain. If not then theirs always, 135 flying....or even better another job out of aviation! good luck

 

[WhiteCloud]

Sounds like your "well known" regional is Trans States. If that's the case they have a reputation for firing people on a regular basis. With your entry level hours and no previous airline experience any interviewer can understand how you might have been in over your head at the time. A company like TSA typically doesn't spend much extra time training pilots and they really don't care how far along you were in training either. A simple " I was in over my head at the time" followed up by a " I learned about a lot of weaknesses that I had as a pilot (situational awareness/instrument flying?) and I've spent a lot of time in simulators and in airplanes working on them so that doesn't happen again". At 1,000 hours you're new to all this. Work on it. WC (ex TSA)

 

[airlinepilot]

How Do You Spell>>>>>>>

TOAST no company will invest thousands of bucks into a new pilot and then let them go for a simple go-around................IOE is nothing more than cooperate and graduate

 

[talespin]

You weren't humming in the cockpit while trying to recover were you?

In 6 years of doing I.O.E. I only downed one guy and the reason was he just couldn't fly. He passed his ride with extended training and basically slipped through the cracks until his I.O.E. His sim instructor claimed he was a nice guy, and yes he was, but I want my family and yours to fly with someone who can fly an airplane not win a popularity contest. After about 40 hours and still little to no progress he had to go. The only reason I bring this up is this could be you, but only you would know that!

 

[viper548]

If it was TSA wouldn't they fire him then offer him a job at G0-Jets?

 

[100LL... Again!]

Dude, there are people with less time than this guy/gal that get into a bomber and friggin go to Iraq. Let's stop the low time dramatics.

The screening and training process for military pilots is not comparable to the civilian world. Only the most capable make it, and ALTHOUGH they are low time, there is an unbelievable amount of ground training and prep that the typical light-plane CFI will not have. Plus, all time is highly structured to maximize learning. Light plane civilian pilot's training quality varies greatly.

Fligh time isn't everything, to be sure, but it really is silly that lots of people think that 1000 hours is all you need to fly a regional jet competently.

It is all SOME people need, and SOME need even less. But most of them would do well to get some real world IFR PIC in something that they can handle ALONE, rather than getting baby-sat at a regional.

 

[pilotyip]

ditto Skywest, go build some more time, there are lots of entry level cargo jobs. Make sure you come clean completely in any future interview. The interviewers have likley heard a lot of stories, they may even have personal contacts at your last company. They will get the unoffical off-line on what happened. We have hired two 121 IOE failures in the past, they both went on to other airlines and intact careers.

 

[PCL_128]

I don't agree with this statement. I think the sim is easier.

Agreed. I don't see why people get so worked up about the sim. There's no real surprises in the sim. No slam-dunk visuals without electronic guidance, no 250 til the marker, no multiple failures, nothing that could remotely be described as high-workload. I've always found the sim to be the easy part.