FFDO criticizes TSA gets visited at home by six LEOs

[Jim Smyth]

OK, again, explain to me the difference from a ramp worker going through an FBI background check and being issued a SIDA badge to bypass the security checkpoints, and an FFDO who takes a course, is issued a gun and bypasses security, there is NONE, so if I go take the FFDO course, I too can bypass the x-ray machine and metal detector, that sounds like a really secure system, that allows an FFDO to be able to carry anything he wants in his bags or on him and bypass the security lines.....

That will be the next one tried by a terrorist, they will get someone hired by one of the airlines, they will get trainied as an FFDO, then make it through security without ever having their bags checked and they will have a loaded weapon, excellent................ and you wonder why no other country in the world allows loaded weapons in the cockpit.........

OK, I take a shot at this question..............pun intended!

A FFDO has taken 10 years minimum out of his life to get trained and be hired by a major airline for a life long profession as a Pilot. Then goes the extra mile and volunteers to be an FFDO, goes through many tests and like you said is issued a gun by the government. I would say he is a trusted person for the job and the last line of defense on a aircraft. 911 taught us that we cant be complacent in the cockpit any more and it seems the powers to be also share that same sentiment, hence the FFDO program.

The ramp worker has no formal training and is considered unskilled labor and can be hired right off the street.There back ground check may come back clean but there usually isnt a long term commitment to the job or the profession of loading bags. Also under no circumstances should they be allowed to be able to bring weapons onto the airport property without security present and checking them and any bags they may have with them.

If you read up on the link regarding that PSA flight that was brought down in 1987, by just that example (ramper not screened properly) you would understand that since it happened 23 years ago and it appears they still havent completely taken care of that loop hole (the reason this thread was started). Pretty sad and goes back to money and not wanting to hire the extra security that would be needed.

I would assume by your questions you dont fly for a major airline. If you did you would understand all the above. If you dont believe in the FFDO program thats fine and I respect your decision although I dont agree with it. Its voluntary and not everyone is capable of making that dedicated commitment or capable of making life threatening split second decisions.

 

[waveflyer]

Jim- good find- I had forgotten the who what and when's of this- a good read for those unable to click the link :


Pacific Southwest Airlines Flight 1771 was a commercial flight that crashed near Cayucos, California, United States, on December 7, 1987, as a result of a murder-suicide scheme by one of the passengers. All 43 people onboard the aircraft died. The man who caused the crash, David Burke (born May 18, 1952), was an angry former employee of USAir, the parent company of PSA.

Hide Background

Burke had been terminated by USAir, which had recently purchased and was in the process of absorbing Pacific Southwest Airlines, for petty theft of $69 from in-flight cocktail receipts. After meeting with his supervisor in an unsuccessful attempt to be reinstated, he purchased a ticket on PSA Flight 1771, a daily flight from Los Angeles to San Francisco. Burke's supervisor, Raymond F. Thomson, was a passenger on the flight, which he took regularly for his commute from San Francisco to Los Angeles International Airport (LAX).[2]

Using his unsurrendered USAir credentials, Burke, armed with a loaded .44 Magnum revolver[3] that he had borrowed from a co-worker, was able to bypass the security checkpoint at LAX. After boarding the plane, Burke wrote a message on an airsickness bag which read:

Hi Ray. I think it's sort of ironical that we ended up like this. I asked for some leniency for my family. Remember? Well, I got none and you'll get none.[4]
As the plane, a four-engine British Aerospace BAe 146-200, cruised at 22,000 feet (6700*****m) over the central California coast, the cockpit voice recorder (CVR) recorded the sound of two shots being fired in the cabin. The cockpit door was opened and a female, presumed to be a flight attendant, told the cockpit crew "We have a problem." The captain replied, "What kind of problem?" Burke then announced "I'm the problem," and fired three more shots that incapacitated or killed the pilots.

Several seconds later, the CVR picked up increasing windscreen noise as the airplane pitched down and accelerated. A final gunshot was heard, and it is speculated that Burke shot himself. The plane descended and crashed nose-first into the hillside of a cattle ranch at 4:16 p.m. in the Santa Lucia Mountains near Paso Robles[5] and Cayucos. The plane was estimated to have crashed at a speed of around 700*****mph (1100*****km/h, 600*****kn), disintegrating instantly. The crash was witnessed by three different people on the ground, all of whom were able to see the plane until a fraction of a second before its impact. Two men in a pickup driving east on Highway 46 saw the plane against a clear blue sky. The third witness, an illegal immigrant who was very near the impact site but never publicly came forward, was said to have feared for his life. The plane was completely intact until it crashed, and was traveling at an approximately 70-degree angle toward the south. The plane impacted a rocky hillside, leaving a crater less than 2 feet deep and 4 feet across, presumably where the landing gear struck the ground. Unburnt paper flew everywhere as small aircraft fuel fires burned on the ground. No one survived the horrific crash. The human remains were in very small pieces, the largest of which were feet in shoes. The force of the impact caused such extensive damage that 27 of the passengers were never identified.

After the crash site was located by a CBS News helicopter piloted by Bob Tur, investigators from the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) were joined by the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI). After two days of digging through what was left of the plane, they found a handgun containing six spent bullet casings and the note on the airsickness bag written by Burke, admitting he was responsible for the crash. FBI investigators were also able to lift a print from a fragment of finger stuck in the pistol's trigger guard, which positively identified Burke. In addition to the evidence uncovered at the crash site, other factors surfaced: Burke's co-worker admitted to having lent him the gun, and Burke had also left a farewell message on his girlfriend's telephone answering machine.

↑ Jump Back A Section
Hide David Burke

The perpetrator, David Burke, was born May 18, 1952 to Jamaican parents living in Britain.[6]

Previously Burke had worked for an airline in Rochester, New York, where he was a suspect in a drug-smuggling ring that was bringing cocaine from Jamaica to Rochester via the airline. He was never officially charged[7], but is reported to have relocated to Los Angeles to avoid future suspicions[6].

↑ Jump Back A Section
Hide Consequences

Several federal laws were passed after the crash, including a law that required "immediate seizure of all airline employee credentials" after termination from an airline position. A policy was also put into place stipulating that all airline flight crew were to be subject to the same security measures as passengers.

The crash killed the president and three other managers of Chevron USA along with three officials of Pacific Bell, which prompted many large corporations to create or revise policies on group travel by executives.[8]

↑ Jump Back A Section
Show See also

 

[Jim Smyth]

I know there's a lot of Pilots here that werent flying for an airline back in 1987. Back then the Flight Crews were respected and part of the solution and didnt go through security like the flying public. After that PSA crash we were then thrown into the security mix and subjected to constant harassment for the dog and pony show to make the public Sheeple feel safer.

Then on 911 I was in the air flying and when we got on the ground I spent the next 5 days in a hotel while the whole us airspace system was shut down. So I take security and or the lack of it very serious too. Security pre 911 was an absolute joke. Most of them couldnt speak English very well or at all and all the contracts went to the lowest bidder. It has gotten a lot better but I dont want us to become complacent again or drop our guard. We have come a long way but theres still more to go using some common sense.

The guy that posted those you tube videos is about my age and probably has my same background and tenure flying for an airline. He see's the same BS and lack of taking care of the original problem. He went as far as to make the public aware of whats still going on because if you didnt work in the industry you wouldnt know. He should be given an award for coming forward and exposing the sad truth rather than being harassed.

Hopefully something good may come out of this.

 

[Deli Guy]

OK, again, explain to me the difference from a ramp worker going through an FBI background check and being issued a SIDA badge to bypass the security checkpoints, and an FFDO who takes a course, is issued a gun and bypasses security, there is NONE, so if I go take the FFDO course, I too can bypass the x-ray machine and metal detector, that sounds like a really secure system, that allows an FFDO to be able to carry anything he wants in his bags or on him and bypass the security lines.....

That will be the next one tried by a terrorist, they will get someone hired by one of the airlines, they will get trainied as an FFDO, then make it through security without ever having their bags checked and they will have a loaded weapon, excellent................ and you wonder why no other country in the world allows loaded weapons in the cockpit.........

Basically, a young Jihadist can be trained as a sleeper in a short period of time, and using the "anti discrimination" policies of our current administration, can "slip under the radar" during a federal background check. Do not confuse that with a FBI background check. The federal background checks are not exactly up to the standards of the FBI. If the FBI is looking, theres a reason, which brings us back to the article.
That is why the pilot did the videos. Sleepers can stay anonomous on the ramp. They can punch in, stay small, punch out and go to the mosque and get additional training. Pilots fly one on one on a daily basis and it would be hard (not impossible) to put the amount of time in it takes to get into the cockpit of a 121 carrier and not come under suspicion.

 

[Redmeat]

For people that dont remember history it will definitely repeat itself if you dont learn from it. I have been around long enough to remember this!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Southwest_Airlines_Flight_1771

This crash is what started the whole "Flight Crew/Everybody" needs to go through security checks so this "CANT" happen again. Here we are 23 years later and some ground crews still swipe through with no security checks whatsoever! U-N-B-E-L-I-V-A-B-L-E

My hats off to the Pilot for posting those videos. It brings to light what is still wrong with the system. I just feel sorry he's being punished for being honest and showing the truth and lack of security for everyone just to save money.

It's not always the rampers with SIDA badges that need to be worried about...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FedEx_Express_Flight_705


"The then 42 year old FedEx Express Flight Engineer Auburn Calloway, an alumnus of Stanford University and a former military pilot and martial arts expert..."

That will be the next one tried by a terrorist, they will get someone hired by one of the airlines, they will get trainied as an FFDO, then make it through security without ever having their bags checked and they will have a loaded weapon, excellent................ and you wonder why no other country in the world allows loaded weapons in the cockpit.........

Yep. That's the gapping hole in the FFDO program...

The 911 hijackers didn't use guns. They had box cutters for Christ sake. The crews had Crash Axes in the flightdeck. The policy at the time was "cooperate don't escalate" hence the crews gave up the cockpit voluntarily. WOULDN'T HAPPEN THAT WAY AGAIN.

Firearms on the flightdeck pose more problems than they thwart...

 

[Jim Smyth]

It's not always the rampers with SIDA badges that need to be worried about...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FedEx_Express_Flight_705


"The then 42 year old FedEx Express Flight Engineer Auburn Calloway, an alumnus of Stanford University and a former military pilot and martial arts expert..."



Yep. That's the gapping hole in the FFDO program...

The 911 hijackers didn't use guns. They had box cutters for Christ sake. The crews had Crash Axes in the flightdeck. The policy at the time was "cooperate don't escalate" hence the crews gave up the cockpit voluntarily. WOULDN'T HAPPEN THAT WAY AGAIN.

Firearms on the flightdeck pose more problems than they thwart...

Gapping hole? You obviously havent gone through the program. Your scenario above may have been stopped if they had to go through the FFDO program. Pilot Physiological conditions aside its about as good a program you can do and has been a huge success measured by numbers and statistics. You have motivated Pilots stepping up to the plate for the sole sake of safety. No pay, lots of extra continuing work/training, huge liability exposures etc.

You have other Law Enforcement, Doctors, Lawyers, Politicians, Teachers, Postal Workers that occasionally make the news for going off the deep end. I would put the Pilots profession up against any of the other professions with regards to stability. A Pilot that is unstable to fly doesnt need a gun or additional security to do major damage. They have there hands on the control wheel, think about that!

So we can agree to disagree. As long as there is people out there willing to DIE (and take everyone with them) we need to be prepared. If you want to be unprepared thats your choice, I choose to be prepared! We can never let another 911 happen on our watch. Mine and my families future depends on that.

 

[Redmeat]

Pilot Physiological conditions aside

That's a HUGE "aside" isn't it? Just because a pilot was physiologically fit at the time of going thru the FFDO program, (and that's assuming the 'tests' are flawless...which they're not...nothing in this world is), doesn't help when said pilot "goes off the deep end" at some point further down the road. Granted it is rare but I'll take my chances fighting over the controls with an un-armed nut job rather than an armed one.

A Pilot that is unstable to fly doesnt need a gun or additional security to do major damage. They have there hands on the control wheel, think about that!

Introducing firearms onto the flightdeck poses more potential problems than it thwarts. Again...I'll take my chances fighting for the controls with an unarmed nut job rather than an armed one.

 

[Jim Smyth]

That's a HUGE "aside" isn't it? Just because a pilot was physiologically fit at the time of going thru the FFDO program, (and that's assuming the 'tests' are flawless...which they're not...nothing in this world is), doesn't help when said pilot "goes off the deep end" at some point further down the road. Granted it is rare but I'll take my chances fighting over the controls with an un-armed nut job rather than an armed one.




Introducing firearms onto the flightdeck poses more potential problems than it thwarts. Again...I'll take my chances fighting for the controls with an unarmed nut job rather than an armed one.

Good thing your not in charge!

 

[batsky2000]

Several federal laws were passed after the crash, including a law that required "immediate seizure of all airline employee credentials" after termination from an airline position. A policy was also put into place stipulating that all airline flight crew were to be subject to the same security measures as passengers.

I guess that policy went out the door for FFDO's, they are airline flight crews, the only difference being that they have a license to carry a loaded weapon in the cockpit, so because of that they should be exempt from being screened? Yea that makes things more secure.......Should be one policy, it should not matter if you are an FFDO or not, same screening policy..................

No one thought this was going to ever happen but it did, and from someone who was supposed to help others, you still think it can't happen in the cockpit??? And this guy went through many years of testing and training to be a psychologist, especially for the military.... Yea right.......

On Thursday November 5, 2009 disaster struck the Fort Hood army post in Texas. The suspects name is Major Nidal Malik Hasan who open fired on unarmed military members killing 12 and wounding 31 others. Major Hasan

pulled out two weapons one of which was a semi-automatic gun, neither of the weapons were military issue. The Fort Hood, Texas army post was put on lockdown until the situation was contained. Suspect Hasan was originally thought to be dead but he was not killed and is currently wounded and in military custody.

More and more information about the Fort Hood Shooting has come forth as time continues. Nidal Hasan is an American citizen who practices the Muslim religion. Hasan is a Major in the army who is also a psychologist...

 

[Jim Smyth]

So maybe the military shouldnt have guns either?

The thread was started about the TSA and a FDDO/Pilot that exposed a weakness in the system thats been around a long time. The FFDO program is here to stay. If you dont like it then try to change it. Other than that all the whining you do on FI because you dont like the FFDO program is pointless.