FEDEX MOAB Place your bets

[CaptainMark]

hey no problems with ZO...just giving him the business for calling me a bigmouth..he is probably right...but my trip to ewr just got cx...so another day of pay on my couch..later

 

[PastV1]

I think some of you may be confused on "seat locks". The only "seat locks" that will apply per the contract are if you bid to the same 'Pay rate" in a different aircraft, i.e. a lateral bid, (18 months), or down bid to a "lesser paying seat". Then the lock is 24 months. On each and every bid the "company" has the choice of when to train someone.

i.e. You are the most senior FO to bid a Captain seat in a given jet. You also happen to be in a current seat that is very short. You may well be held for several months in your current seat until they have the manning to "release" you to train in the next jet.

So, all the SO's that have to wait for training are not "locked" per se'.

Alonzo,
how long have you been with us?

Past....

 

[PastV1]

Hey, I just got a trip thru EWR! I want to sit on the couch and have a beer or ten!

Past....

 

[PastV1]

deleted.

 

[AlonzoMosley]

Hi Guys, thanks for the responses. They are all something to think about. The message has been as direct as legally possible about everyone making a personal decision. The company isn't going to settle until they feel that it is in their best interest and that will only be when they are pressured to settle. Did everyone receive their purple promise pin in the mail?

I did get off easy with the Capt. His response was perfect. But I just had to know... Hope the golfing goes well. I haven't done VLT, DFT or sellback in at least five years. I enjoy my time at home too much to do extra. BTW, I have been around over 10 years.

 

[PastV1]

BTW, If you've been around that long you should know exactly where the rock throwing at each other got us in the 90's.

Past...

 

[AlonzoMosley]

Past,
Is seems that rock throwing is at least half of what goes on at flightinfo. You guys act as if I am the first one to bring these subjects up. Any lecture about rock throwing should be directed at someone else. I'm not on here to stir things up, just to check out the latest rumors. After all, we are all in this together and have to support each other. One of the great things about flying is the cameraderie.

 

[AlbieF15]

Fact is, the small markets subsidize the large markets in this country. If you can't fly a 737 or A320 into it 7 times a day the fares are usually 2 or 3 times the price of the longer legs between bigger cities (with lots of competition). I'm NOT saying regulation is the answer, but you can bet there are a lot of places (think of those served ONLY by an ASA, Pinnacle, etc as code share partners) that would certainly support more frequent, regulated service. Not going socialist on anyone--just saying there ARE areas where such ideas would be very popular. Those places don't include DAL, FLL, or JFK...

 

[CaptainMark]

Amen brother...we only make fun of swa pilots..just jokes

 

[AlbieF15]

1. I have no idea why most post on SWA ended up here. I guess I'm a posting buffoon.

2. Zo--calling Capt Mark out on post #1, and showing up talking about comraderie having posted 4 posts so far, is about as pretentious as showing up Stag at a wife swap party. Other than that--glad to have you aboard.
FYI--with ANG obligations and dropping a week of trips for an owner/annual party, I managed to squeek in only 30 hours of a 90 hour bid month. I also flunked bidding and got a terrible AM O&B line that doesn't work for my body clock or my commuter lifestyle. That's not a work action--that's just a busy month with some activities that couldn't be rescheduled coupled with bad bidding. However--if our UNION asks us to do something you can bet at the appropriate time just about anyone who's a board regular will follow their lead. Shots across the bow prior to then invite NLRB lawyers.

 

[Falconjet]

I agree with pastv1 about the "seat locks." I don't think (hope) there will be any actual seat locks. There just won't be another bid for at least a year, maybe two, although from all the latest rumors on here it sounds like just the one year. You won't be seat locked if you bid up a seat, you'll only be "locked" if you choose to stay put and won't have another opportunity to bid up until the next bid, just like always.

They trained out of order on the last big bid, and probably will again. If you don't want to have new hires moving to a right seat ahead of you then you definitely need to bid up on this bid. If you choose to stay put for seniority sake (and who can blame you) then just be prepared to maybe sit put for another 2 years.

FJ

 

[AlonzoMosley]

Just curious but why is the number of posts always brought up when someone disagrees with a statement? Are the number of posts like seniority? Just trying to catch up on how this works...Now SWA pilots aren't strange, they're just special. Just kidding, I wouldn't think of rock throwing. Maybe we should call it stone tossing instead.

 

[CaptainMark]

Zo..bigmouth here...we are just having fun..passing along info when we get it and busting balls...no more no less...but on the regionals board they go for the jugular!

 

[Babylon]

1) On the snow day Friday - +SN was called on ATIS for about 45 minutes starti ng around 1515 - by 1600 to 1900 it was all -SN or SN with no restrictions and very decent holdover times. The problem with Memphis was the deice capability - they took (and said it on the radio several times) 30-45 mins per widebody - and this w/o any ice in the area. No that would not happen in IND.

2) Of course taking VLT, DRF, etc. is prol eponging negotiations. Talk to ANY block and they will tell you this. If you've been to any of the hub meatings you'd know this. The Union cannot ask for no overtime until self help - read up on the Railway and Labor Act Echopapa - you can't be this stupid and be a member.

 

[Lindy]

Fyi

Someone posted something about a "sick-out" being a legal work action.

Better get your facts straight. ABX pilots had a case that went to the 6th Circuit and they were found guilty of an illegal work action (cannot find the site right now, but give me until after the 24th, and I'm all yours!!).

American had some similar issues in the past.

Keeping everyone informed!

 

[Huck]

Better get your facts straight.

A sick out was listed as part of a spectrum of actions, up to and including a strike, followed by the caveat that

[F]ederal law has placed limits on when each of these tools may be used. Specifically, what you are proposing is not allowed until we have ended our cooling off period and released into self help.

 

[FedEx1]

I just dunno, guys... I don't see how not doing Draft, VLT, and all that junk could speed up the process. The company couldn't care less either way. I mean, you can wear your hat to show your support, but it isn't going to get anything signed any earlier. The company had the time frame all mapped out well before we started, and they aren't going to go any faster because no one sells back vacation time. It might show you will not "help out" while this thing drags on, but I don't think it is hurting. What WOULD hurt is for everyone to take their scheduled MEM DH!

Please don't throw stones- I am just trying to figure this out, and NO I am not doing the extra flying. I am being a good little union boy. But, I really don't think it is making this go faster..... just my 2 cents.

 

[MemTrash]

1) On the snow day Friday - +SN was called on ATIS for about 45 minutes starti ng around 1515 - by 1600 to 1900 it was all -SN or SN with no restrictions and very decent holdover times. The problem with Memphis was the deice capability - they took (and said it on the radio several times) 30-45 mins per widebody - and this w/o any ice in the area. No that would not happen in IND.

Man I still think you are wrong. Ice is easy.
We were one of the first to get out and we got to the car wash (one of 5 or6 they had going) in about 10 minutes then it took 20 minutes to de-ice us and 15 to anti-ice. We were in an A300 and we had 4 trucks on us. From my personal experience with de-icing (worked the ramp for Delta in the 80s) Heavy wet snow is the hardest thing to get off the aircraft it takes forever. Our biggest slow down with all the NWA and Airlink planes that got out got de-iced then had to return to the gate to get more gas. The vis was so bad that ATC couldn't see much and they had people going everywhere. We were out of the car wash within 45 minutes (give or take) from block out and our taxi time was 1+45. We were right at our 1 hour to 1+30 hold over time when we took off and had burned almost 5,000 lbs of gas.
It always took Indy about 20 minutes to de-ice the MD never heavy snow though (only had it done there 4 or 5 times) I never got anti-iced there but I'd bet it would take 15 or so. Big airplanes take some time to clean off and the back lash from the airport closing I think it went as well as it might have anywhere.
The northeast guys are great with snow and ice, wonder how they are doing yesterday and today. The weather can get the best of anyone. IMHO

 

[Echopapa]

Of course taking VLT, DRF, etc. is prol eponging negotiations. Talk to ANY block and they will tell you this. If you've been to any of the hub meatings you'd know this. The Union cannot ask for no overtime until self help - read up on the Railway and Labor Act Echopapa - you can't be this stupid and be a member.

Of course the obvious implication is that I am stupid. Your personal insults are a poor excuse to a well thought out argument based on fact and logic.

I am a Union member and I am not stupid (my wife may differ), and yes I disagree with you on this.

I have been to union meetings and have spoken to union reps and have never been told or even "wink wink" nudged toward not flying Vlt/Draft. If you are suggesting that the Union is forwarding that communication, even in an informal manner, I suggest you have misunderstood. When you post that our Union is advocating an job action prior to being released to self help you are giving the company ammunition for a court case and doing us all a disservice.

Repeat after me...."The union is NOT advocating that I stop flying Vlt/Draft, either in a formal or informal manner. It is a personal decision, and not related to any organized attempt to influence contract negotations." If you are the "expert" on the RLA as you imply, you should know that.

My point, which you have missed, is that an uncoordinated, hap-hazard, unplanned attempt by a fraction of our pilot group to influence the pace of contract negotiations by not flying Vlt/Draft will not be effective. Instead it will be a disservice by taking away a tool from our pilot group when we can use it to our benefit in a coordinated manner (for example during peak after we have been released to self help).

If the company is dependant on crewmembers flying Drft/Vlt then when you take it away all at once when they need it the most then you will have the maximum influence on negotiations.

If instead, you get a small number of pilots who stop flying Drft/Vlt slowly over the course of 12 months, all the while the company fills the trips with pilots who do fly Drft/Vlt, then the comany will adjust its manning slowly to compensate for that slowly change in percentile of those that accept overtime. At some point, the manning will include enough reserves so that there will be no need for vlt/draft in the first place.

Hey...Echopapa...what about snow days..when they really need us? Won't it help us then?

NO...FedEx doesn't give refunds for weather related events. So having one or 40 trips cancelled as a result of lack of crewmembers stemming from a weather event will not cost the company any money at all.

 

[FedExFlyer]

Hey...Echopapa...what about snow days..when they really need us? Won't it help us then?

NO...FedEx doesn't give refunds for weather related events. So having one or 40 trips cancelled as a result of lack of crewmembers stemming from a weather event will not cost the company any money at all.

Excellent point!!

I was called 3X for draft this past Friday evening..........thanks but no thanks!!

 

[sandman2122]

Echopappa, go ahead and justify flying all the draft/vlt for the company all you want. (That's putting it nicely)

I'm sorry you're really hurting for cash on the Airbus...

And please don't take this as a "personal insult"......

 

[Echopapa]

Echopappa, go ahead and justify flying all the draft/vlt for the company all you want. (That's putting it nicely)

I'm sorry you're really hurting for cash on the Airbus...

And please don't take this as a "personal insult"......

I fly RB and I had one landing in Jan and so far one landing in Feb. At this pace, I will be lucky if I can keep my landing currency. I think the last call I had for draft was in Dec, and I declined for personal reasons. I can't even remember a draft call before that.

My post is not personally motivated to justify some financial gain. In fact, if I wanted to gain more from draft/volunteer time it would be more logical for me to suggest that everyone stop flying it.

I have my own decisions for why I haven't flown draft or sold back my vacation, but those have nothing to do with contract negotiations. And I do not hold a grudge against anyone that currently accepts draft/vlt. It is part of our negotiated contract and is allowed. It is not against any guidance from our Union. And most importantly, I honestly feel that if the company was more dependant on overtime flyers then we would have some leverage to use when the time is right.

Though you say your post is not personal, I fail to see where it presents some logical point supported by evidence. What I do see is an inappropriate allegation that I am acting out of greed by accepting overtime flying. This is "inappropriate" because you don't have any idea of how much or if I accept any overtime flying. Your conclusion is without a basis in fact...which makes it emotional and flawed.

Try this....state your position on Vlt/Draft and then back it up with some credible logic and evidence.

Ill help you

I, Sandman, feel that drft/vlt should/shouldn't (cirlce one) be flown because of the following reasons:

1. State an unemotional logical reason or evidence.

2. State another logical reason or evidence

In conclusion, ....(Now try to tie your logical reasons together to support your position).

 

[MemTrash]

Ill help you

I, Sandman, feel that drft/vlt should/shouldn't (cirlce one) be flown because of the following reasons:

1. State an unemotional logical reason or evidence.

2. State another logical reason or evidence

In conclusion, ....(Now try to tie your logical reasons together to support your position).

You guys seem to be doing the same thing for different reasons, but you are both doing the right thing no matter what the reason. Why not just agree to agree on this one.
DAL and NWA have guys on the street and guys still flying are picking up extra so there is no way we will stop DFT/VLT at FredEx. The other guys have some real issues.

 

[furloughed dude]

The real fact is that Fedex will only speed up the process is when they experience service failures. This is the case with practically all airline (pax or cargo) union negotiations.

How this happens is the difficult part.

 

[Spur]

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=search&case=/data2/circs/11th/0016472opn.html

 

[Spur]

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/feb2001/lab-f23.shtml

Union orders Delta Pilots to end job action
The Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA) ordered its members at Delta Air Lines to comply with a federal court injunction halting a no-overtime work campaign, a union spokesman said February 15. Pilots have been involved in drawn-out negotiations for a new contract and are demanding higher wages and improved benefits from the nation's third largest carrier. The pilots union has voted to strike as early as April 1 if negotiations fail and the National Mediation Board releases both sides from talks.

The injunction, which was issued by the US District Court for the Northern District of Georgia in Atlanta, prohibits ALPA from refusing to request or accept overtime flying work, and from engaging in any other actions which interfere with Delta's operations. In a posting on its web site, ALPA told its members to cease any unlawful activity, including harassment of pilots who request overtime work.

Delta sued its pilots union in December, accusing it of orchestrating a campaign to decline overtime flying requests in violation of the federal Railway Labor Act. When the district court judge hearing the case declined to enjoin the pilots, Delta appealed the decision to the 11th Circuit US Court of Appeals in Atlanta. Last month, a three-judge panel sided with the airline and ordered the lower court to issue an injunction. A pilots union request for a rehearing before the full 11th Circuit court was denied.

 

[MemTrash]

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/feb2001/lab-f23.shtml

Man that was in 2001 before 911 and DAL didn't have pilots on the street. They were just doing what the FedEx guys should be doing now and put some heat on Mgmt. Maybe if they didn't fly extra they'd call some guys back.
Go back a few more decades and see what you can find.

 

[Babylon]

Echopapa - you're right as far as refusing DRF and VLT will not help if only a few members do it. But that sounds an awful like "Why bother voting - my vote doesn't make a difference anyway". You can't really complain about the outcome if you don't participate in a positive way. Of course my MEC speaks for me - I'm not on it and in no way am putting out their guidance. But....it seems very obvious to me that if we had less DRF and VLT then it just might hit the company in the pocketbook and that's the only way they will negotiate. I suspect they will keep negotiations open as long as it behooves them financially - could be years.

It makes me sick when I hear some guy in the crew bus bragging about how he just picked up a draft trip while we're in negotiations. And 9 out of 10 times the guy lives in Memphis - imagine that. There is a clear difference in crew force between those that live in Memphis and those that don't.

 

[Echopapa]

Babylon,

While I do not agree with your personal view of overtime flying, I do agree that there are differences in the way it is perceived by memphis pilots and commuters.

I suspect some of the resentment toward overtime flying by commuters stems not just from the perception that it will extend negotiations but also from a lack of ability for commuters to equally participate.

Its always easy to give up something you don't have....and for commuters thats overtime flying.

 

[HighNightFlyer]

I am a commuter in a major metropolitan area and have been offered draft. Plenty of people go sick in the field.

I just don't feel motivated to do any extra flying now.

HNF